Anyone have close up pics of a72/73 Nordic or Italian Rally?
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Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Location: Oceanside/ SF
Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:25 pm quote
I'm trying to convert one of my 74 Rallys into a 73 Scandinavian market Rallys. I'm trying to do my homework and I've been able to find a few pics online but nothing close up. From the photos I've found the differences to be:

Choke lever above the fuel tap
No keyswitch under the seat
No US DOT stuff
Big ol Euro headset
No autolube sightglass

3 questions I still have are what headlight switch was used, what color fendercrest (black or polished aluminum) and what horn was stock. There might be more questions once I've seen close up pics, but until then I'm stuck.

Anyone got pics or info that would help? Thanks.

Last edited by MJRally on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:57 pm quote
Not exactly what you're after, but these are the best close up pics I've seen... possibly you've seen them already.

http://gallery.vespresso.nl/mr10/Rally200

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/Site/RG_02.html

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/Site/RG_08.html
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Location: Oceanside/ SF
Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:24 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Not exactly what you're after, but these are the best close up pics I've seen... possibly you've seen them already.

http://gallery.vespresso.nl/mr10/Rally200

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/Site/RG_02.html

http://www.baritaliaclassics.com/Site/RG_08.html
I've seen those before and should try to visit Bar Italia and see if they have any info. There's a good Tumblr page with Rally 200 pics that I've studied and just emailed a few Euro shops asking if they could help.
Hooked
Rally 200, P200 (2), Jet 200, GTS300
Joined: 21 Jan 2013
Posts: 104
Location: North Hollywood
Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:15 pm quote
Do you need info. on a Rally 180 or Rally 200.

Bar Italia is finishing up two Euro Rally 200's now.
A red 74 and a yellow 76 (I think) the red is my favorite. (because It's mine)
Molto Verboso
Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 1896
Location: Seattle
Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:02 pm quote
Re: Anyone have close up pics of a 72/73 Euro Rally?
MJRally wrote:
I'm trying to convert one of my 74 Rallys into a 73 Scandinavian market Rallys. I'm trying to do my homework and I've been able to find a few pics online but nothing close up. From the photos I've found the differences to be:
let me set you straight on some of these-
Quote:
Choke lever above the fuel tap
this isn't US market specific, it's a difference between autolube and non-autolube bikes.
Quote:
No keyswitch under the seat
also not a US market difference. for a single year, rallys had the kill switch/button under the seat. if the bike had a battery system, it got a keyswitch; no battery and it got a giant kill button. it's sti lavailable if yo uwant one.
Quote:
No US DOT stuff
Big ol Euro headset
there are alot of electrical system differences on north american bikes. some are DOT required, some aren't. i'd say the electrical stuff is probably the most substatial difference.
Quote:
No autolube sightglass
not US, but autolube/non autolube. autolube was supplied to europe but it was an expensive option most didn't opt for. not very common over there, but not totaly unheard of. alot of the time it was at the whim of the importer for that specific country if they got a batch of autolube in or not.
Quote:
3 questions I still have are what headlight switch was used, what color fendercrest (black or polished aluminum) and what horn was stock. There might be more questions once I've seen close up pics, but until then I'm stuck.

Anyone got pics or info that would help? Thanks.
the switches would depend heavily on if it was a battery or non battery bike, and to a lesser extent which european country it was shipped to, as some of them (especially nordic countries) had their own quirks.

horn also depends on what electrical system, as well as which supplier supplied for that batch of bikes. there are a few variations in horns, as these were bought to fit a hole pattern and size from a few different suppliers.

i'd have to look it up, but i believe the fender crest was an early/late thing as well as being different depending on the paint color used on the bike.

there are also a lot of not-so obvious other differences, like the inspection holes in the brake drums that are unique to north america. and the other, more obvious ones like the black plastic fuel shut off mechanism.

it is also worth noting that there isn't neccisarily a 'euro spec' per se; depending on year and model each country can have differences. England and the nordic countries tended to have the most differences, but other countries had their own slight variations as well. when people say 'it's a euro market bike, they typically are talking about an italian market bike, as those are the most common recent imports. your hunt for pictures may do nothing more than convfuse you unless you get some context to each one and background info on the bike shown.

if you really want to do something like this and 'convert' a bike to a different spec, what you need to get your hands on is a set of the piaggio master manuals. not easy to find, and seldom up for sale, these manuals are a master cross reference of everything piaggio produced for about a 25-30 year span, listing what part numbers superceded what other numbers, and what country specific parts used for. they typically come as a set of three, and the first book is just an index. there are at least two different sets of these, one covering from the 50's - 70's and one from the 60's - 80's. there is also a piaggio blue parts manual cross reference published in 1999 that omits the ape line that covers the 80's - 90's.

of course, i don't know why exactly you'd want to try and do this. it's not like the european spec bikes are inherently superior, just different.
Molto Verboso
Vespa GS150, Messerschmitt GS150
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Location: Glasgow
Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:55 am quote
Got to agree with the above, although don't know a lot about the Rally. Piaggio pressed all of the frames etc. and they were assembled under licence by various countries like UK (Douglas, Bristol) Germany (Messerschmitt & Augsburg) France (ACMA, Paris) USA (Cushman) Spain (Madrid) There may have been others that someone on here can enlighten me on. Piaggio allowed these companies to fit parts that were essential to each countries road use/rules like the horn, lights, speedometer, chassis number/vin plate and the seat/saddle. So a Rally frame in the USA will be the same as a Rally frame in Italy, so the spec changes with what each country wanted there scooter to have, like indicators, size of light etc.

I have a GS150 frame that according to Piaggio's records was pressed in 1959 but was not registered for road use until 1960, so therefore I have a 1960 GS150, which makes a big difference in the UK because all pre 1960's vehicles do not need to go for a MOT inspection.

A 1972 Rally may of had Siem switches & lights where as a 73 Rally may of had Bosatta lights, but this would have been down to either contractual or supply issues at the time.

I asked the question on the VVC forum about the length of front spring on a GS150 as I had ones from 180mm to 190mm, there answer was down to the availability of materials & cost.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:20 am quote
Very cool guys. Thanks for the history lesson. I know very little about the differences and am very thankful that MV even exists! Until I get more information, I'm going to have to just lean towards creating a bike similar to an Italian market, non autolube, batteryless Rally. While the idea of getting all original parts would be great, I'm realistic too and understand I will have to mix and match to get the job done. I'm not worrying about any DMV stuff either. It will still be titled a 74 and if the cops pull me over I'll deal with it then.

This whole project is just to make me happy. I'm not looking for glory by having a magical European bike, but just looking for something different that can be attained with the parts I already have and what little money I havent paid to the IRS yet. Just having you guys reply makes me excited because it means I'm one step closer to getting my hands dirty. So please keep the info coming because I really am trying to be respectful to the Piaggio brand and to all the folks on here who actually give a shit.

@RobHodge- Do you have a set of master manuals? I'm in Anacortes now but will be in Seattle on Wednesday. Go Seahawks.

@Mr. Anderson- Glad to hear you're getting a bike done. Friend of mine just sold Kristian one of my Euro headsets. I wonder whose bike its going on?
Addicted
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:12 am quote
The 125 t.s. has most of the stylimg cues you are looking for... Here are some photos of mine, although not original or stock resto has been completed...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76117784@N05/sets/72157645423495839/
Hooked
72 Euro Rally 180 - 74 USA Rally 200 - 1966 SS 180
Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 397
Location: Detroit
Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:39 am quote
all original german market 180

-5.jpg

-7.jpg

-10.jpg

-13.jpg

-15.jpg

Mr. Clean
P,SUPER,V90, 50 Special
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:04 am quote
^^ super uber legit bike that.
Molto Verboso
Vespa GS150, Messerschmitt GS150
Joined: 21 Jan 2013
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Location: Glasgow
Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:11 am quote
Good example of the German Rally, I think now all scooters in Germany must install indicators, even if they were not originally on the scooter, again the age of the scooter may have exceptions but Im seeing more and more GS scooters with bar end indicators and indicators fitted to the side panels, there TUV (Vehicle Inspectors) are probably the most strict in Europe.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Posts: 1896
Location: Seattle
Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:07 am quote
MJRally wrote:
Very cool guys. Thanks for the history lesson. I know very little about the differences and am very thankful that MV even exists! Until I get more information, I'm going to have to just lean towards creating a bike similar to an Italian market, non autolube, batteryless Rally. While the idea of getting all original parts would be great, I'm realistic too and understand I will have to mix and match to get the job done. I'm not worrying about any DMV stuff either. It will still be titled a 74 and if the cops pull me over I'll deal with it then.

This whole project is just to make me happy. I'm not looking for glory by having a magical European bike, but just looking for something different that can be attained with the parts I already have and what little money I havent paid to the IRS yet. Just having you guys reply makes me excited because it means I'm one step closer to getting my hands dirty. So please keep the info coming because I really am trying to be respectful to the Piaggio brand and to all the folks on here who actually give a shit.

@RobHodge- Do you have a set of master manuals? I'm in Anacortes now but will be in Seattle on Wednesday. Go Seahawks.

@Mr. Anderson- Glad to hear you're getting a bike done. Friend of mine just sold Kristian one of my Euro headsets. I wonder whose bike its going on?
well, most would drop the turn signals or go to bar ends; one could get a repro 130mm diameter rally headset if you wanted to go further.

i do not have a set of master manuals; i'd love to have a set but sadly have only had access to them at Scooterworks when i worked there and know we had a set at SF scooter centre but never had a reason to drag them out. i did read them cover to cover a few times and used them to compile the cross references that they still use in scooterworks catalogs.
Addicted
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:56 pm quote
GLscoot wrote:
Piaggio pressed all of the frames etc. and they were assembled under licence by various countries like UK (Douglas, Bristol) . . .
Douglas played no part in helping to produce Rally's.
They stopped assembling Vespas in the mid 60's.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:20 pm quote
nebulae wrote:
GLscoot wrote:
Piaggio pressed all of the frames etc. and they were assembled under licence by various countries like UK (Douglas, Bristol) . . .
Douglas played no part in helping to produce Rally's.
They stopped assembling Vespas in the mid 60's.
Yeh, I know. I was generalising about all the companies who had a licence to assemble Vespas. I don't think any of the companies I mentioned were still around in the 70's. My point was that Piaggio made/pressed all the Vespa frames which were then exported to the above countries with the engine and cowls.
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 pm quote
Why the preference for Scandinavian-market? The Greek, Swiss, Australian markets, among others, also used 402 Azzurro Cina (China Blue) from 1973.

Apart from the headset the most obvious difference is the badges. The 1972 and 1973 Rally 200s had an uppercase RALLY 200 rear badge and the front legshield had a horizontally mounted 'Vespa' script badge. These were changed in late 1973 at VIN 10824. Pictures below.
Quote:
for a single year, rallys had the kill switch/button under the seat. if the bike had a battery system, it got a keyswitch; no battery and it got a giant kill button.
Almost 3 years. It disappeared at VIN 18100, so 1972, 1973 and more than 6,400 (or roughly 63%) of the 1974 Rally production.

My 1973 Rally is a DC model and has a factory fitted kill button. I've never seen an evidence of a 'keyed' kill switch on anything but US/CDN/PR market Rally 200s. However, Piaggio had 38 different international market designations in the early-mid '70s, so never say never.
Quote:
what color fendercrest (black or polished aluminum)
All Rally 200s had black fender crests. The TS had polished ones. All Rally 200s also had black fork springs and black plastic taillight covers (not body coloured as per previous models).

Other minor details: all non-US/CDN/PR Vespas have holes drilled for license plates. Also strengthening plate on cowls/frame for indicators is unique to US/CDN/PR markets.
Quote:
Do you have a set of master manuals?
Yes, up until mid-70s. What do want me to cross-reference?



Last edited by seigiorni on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:41 pm quote
^^ Great stuff!

I think it's great that you're doing something a bit different. Nice challenge that adds interest. Good luck with it, I'll be following your progress.
Ossessionato
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Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:12 pm quote
seigiorni wrote:
Why the preference for Scandinavian-market? The Greek, Swiss, Australian markets, among others, also used 402 Azzurro Cina (China Blue) from 1973.
I chose it based on the little information I knew and thought Azzurro Cina was limited to that market. I'm a fan of blue (Blue truck, Blue Harley) so why not have a blue Vespa?
Quote:
Other minor details: all non-US/CDN/PR Vespas have holes drilled for license plates.
Do you have any images or information on the location of those holes? Spacing info? Diameter? Just making sure the holes in my donor frame are correct.
Quote:
Do you have a set of master manuals?

Yes, up until mid-70s. What do want me to cross-reference?
Only things now I'm curious about are what headset switch was used? The one with the square horn button, or a different one? Also, what AC horn was used since my bike will be batteryless (Any special pattern, circles, lines, clamshell?)

ALL- The plan now is to model the bike after an early 1973 Rally 200 made with a VIN less than 18000. It will have the all uppercase Rally 200 rear badge, horizontal front script badge and the big headset. It'll look just like the Grey bike in the Sardinemobile ad in Seigiorni's post but in the very awesome Azurro Cina with white stripes.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Location: Oceanside/ SF
Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:16 pm quote
And a survey for all of you:

1. Should I put the smaller AC horn in this bike or should I opt for the larger DC horn?

2. Should I keep the motor the stock 74 Rally engine that was in it or go fucking nuts and blow some money on a crazy P200 engine with all the super clutches and H-bomb pipes etc? I have two working spare motors so its just a matter of deciding.

Thanks all
Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:51 am quote
1. unsure about the horn, i think it depends on whether you run a battery.

2. build and dial in 1 engine at a time.
Hooked
Ciao
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Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:38 am quote
nebulae wrote:
GLscoot wrote:
Piaggio pressed all of the frames etc. and they were assembled under licence by various countries like UK (Douglas, Bristol) . . .
Douglas played no part in helping to produce Rally's.
They stopped assembling Vespas in the mid 60's.
How is it then I have a 1972 Douglas Rally 200 ? Can anyone throw any light on this ?

My apologies for interrupting this great thread.......................
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
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Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:49 am quote
TrumpyScooter wrote:
1. unsure about the horn, i think it depends on whether you run a battery.

2. build and dial in 1 engine at a time.
I'm not going to run a battery but will do the old moped horn in a DC Rally horn trick if I go that route.

The original Femsa Rally engine was fully rebuilt 1000 miles ago. The P200 w/ Malossi kit but stock gearing will be rebuilt soon anyways. A friend owes me money
Molto Verboso
Joined: 15 Nov 2008
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Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:20 am quote
Paddy Holt wrote:
nebulae wrote:
GLscoot wrote:
Piaggio pressed all of the frames etc. and they were assembled under licence by various countries like UK (Douglas, Bristol) . . .
Douglas played no part in helping to produce Rally's.
They stopped assembling Vespas in the mid 60's.
How is it then I have a 1972 Douglas Rally 200 ? Can anyone throw any light on this ?

My apologies for interrupting this great thread.......................
becuase while douglas stopped assembling them in 1965, they were the UKimporter of complete machines for a while after that.

and then the british government never bothered to change how they registered them when douglas went out of the scooter business in 1982. they still put douglas on the registration papers.
Hooked
Ciao
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Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:52 am quote
Thanks Rob appreciate that reply. I visited the Douglas factory in Bristol in 2006 while doing Lejog.

Cheers.....................
Molto Verboso
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