HELP Please!! mp3 300 2011 engine knocking hard
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Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Sun May 22, 2016 3:46 am quote
Hi folks, i present myself Nelson from Paris area i bought a MP3 300 2011 with 16000km i just ride for almost 2000 km and after a moment at top speed.
My engine started to knock pretty hard i thought in the first time of valve clearance and correct it (but was pretty much ok)

The problem is not solved i changed oil for thicker oil it now sounds better but knocking still here..

Do you have a clue camshaft? Crankshaft ? Is it worth to repair?

Thank you in advance experts
Ossessionato
2016 MP3/500 Sport ABS, 2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 4218
Location: Marietta, GA
Sun May 22, 2016 3:18 pm quote
Re: HELP Please!! mp3 300 2011 engine knocking hard
Nelson-MRQS wrote:
Hi folks, i present myself Nelson from Paris area i bought a MP3 300 2011 with 16000km i just ride for almost 2000 km and after a moment at top speed.
My engine started to knock pretty hard i thought in the first time of valve clearance and correct it (but was pretty much ok)

The problem is not solved i changed oil for thicker oil it now sounds better but knocking still here..

Do you have a clue camshaft? Crankshaft ? Is it worth to repair?

Thank you in advance experts
You may want to post a Video with Sound on Youtube, and update this post with the link so we can here it.

Keith
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Sun May 22, 2016 10:02 pm quote
Re: HELP Please!! mp3 300 2011 engine knocking hard
Thank you in advance experts [/quote]

You may want to post a Video with Sound on Youtube, and update this post with the link so we can here it.

Keith[/quote]

Thanks for your reply Keith i added a recording of the initial sound just below wich is pretty significant

knocking sound of my mp3 300.zip
 Description:
Knocking sound of my mp3 300

Download
 Filename:  knocking sound of my mp3 300.zip
 Filesize:  505.73 KB

Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: UK
Mon May 23, 2016 12:04 am quote
That is a serious mechanical issue but not necessarily from the depths of the engine. First try to establish where it is coming from by using a screwdriver as a stethoscope ( i.e. hold the handle against your ear and place the tip against the engine in various places. You should think about removing the transmission cover and also the valve cover to try and isolate the source. If you remove the spark plug and turn the engine by hand can you hear the noise? If so you can probably locate it more easily without the engine running. Once you have eliminated such things as a loose variator my first guess would be a timing chain problem.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Mon May 23, 2016 12:18 am quote
Thanks for the reply i already tried to figure out with the screwdriver hard to tell its loud on the head of the engine ( where te valves are located) but also in the lower part near the crankshaft but could be the résonance. I already tried to turn the engine by hand ( but i did not remove tje spark plug is it a problem?)
I detected a hard spot when turning where i have to force and then it releases suddendly. By looking at the valves i determined that this happens every two tirns of the crankshaft at the end of the fourth stroke the exhaust and before the intake.

Any ideas? How can i tell if its timing chain issue?

Thanks in advance
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21367
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Mon May 23, 2016 4:13 am quote
pull the cvt apart and inspect first. let us know if you find anything there.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Mon May 23, 2016 4:20 am quote
Already done :/ engine without cvt knocks too and CVT is clean
Hooked
Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 280
Location: Uk rochdale
Mon May 23, 2016 4:35 am quote
pop the timing chain tensioner out and see if its fully extended.
3 minute job no major dismantle needed
Ossessionato
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 2005
Location: Saratoga, N.Y.
Mon May 23, 2016 4:58 am quote
Remove the spark plug to turn the engine by hand (the compression stroke will naturally make it harder to turn if the plug is in place). If it's a bad main bearing, it will only make the noise while running.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Mon May 23, 2016 6:03 am quote
I will try without the sparkplug and let you know.
What do you mean by timing chaine tensioner this part? (See attachment) if so how can i tell if its fully extended (and what are the effects if not?)

Thanks again for all your replies its very kind of you

Rare to finds such experts on french forums

57051a1bc4c90_TENTITORE-DISTRIBUZIONE-1-.JPG
Chain tensioner ?

Hooked
Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 280
Location: Uk rochdale
Mon May 23, 2016 6:10 am quote
yep that's the part
1 turn centre nut anti clockwise to undo tension
2 remove nut and the inner spring will bounce out
3 undo 2 remaining nuts on the base
4 it will be tight so a little help and it pops off
5 reset tensioner by pressing in small clip at top of teethed shaft
6 make sure its fully retracted and reinstall in engine ( do not use the bolts )
7 just put spring inside and give a little pressure to the spring
8 you should have heard little clicks
9 remove tensioner from engine only this time it comes out easy
10 count how many teeth you see on tensioner
11 your check is complete
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Mon May 23, 2016 6:22 am quote
The first ten seconds? Then i count the teeth on it?
Well when in front of the engine i will try to follow the steps with my understanding of technical mechanical english
Hooked
Joined: 06 Nov 2014
Posts: 280
Location: Uk rochdale
Mon May 23, 2016 8:49 am quote
hold on

the tensioner does not need anything else removed. do not undo anything else other than the tensioner.
and never try to turn or start the engine while it is out of the engine.
PLEASE don't touch it if your unsure of my words.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Mon May 23, 2016 10:05 am quote
Yes don't worry i took a closer look to the oart and i understood all your steps now i will do it and let you know thanks again for the help
Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: UK
Mon May 23, 2016 11:44 pm quote
Advice about the timing chain tensioner is very good but there is one thing to add. The tensioner is located on the side of the chain which will be slack when the engine is running. When you check as described above it is best that the chain is in a slack position and not when the camshaft is trying to turn backwards due to valve spring pressure on the followers. If you cannot find what the correct position is from the manual you should try to observe this with the valve cover removed. As above do this before slackening or removing the tensioner. I fear that with a noise as severe as this there will be something more than just adjustment required. For example one of the blades supporting the timing chain may be broken.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Tue May 24, 2016 1:43 am quote
Hello guys! I nearly found my isssue 😃!
I tried identifying more accuratly without the sparkplug ( to remove the pressure as u advised) and thats it i identified the noise its look like there is some kind of iregularity on the cam shaft causing the exhaust valve to quicky go down and spring creating the noise
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Tue May 24, 2016 5:37 pm quote
Is there something to know to remove the rocker arms and the cam shaft and of course to put it back together?
Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: UK
Tue May 24, 2016 11:55 pm quote
The slight movement that you can see on the exhaust rocker is the decompressor which operates until the engine rpm are over about 1000-1200 after which the weights are thrown outwards to retract the mechanism which lifts the exhaust rocker.

If the decompresor is the source of the noise it could be a broken spring or a problem with one of the retaining screws. But remember that any component in the valve gear would make a noise synchronized to the valve operation so its not certain to be the decompressor mechanism.

When you are dismantling the decompressor make sure that you do not allow any broken or loose parts to fall into the engine. Block the timing tunnel with plenty of rags.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Wed May 25, 2016 7:15 am quote
Hmmm you are right its the little bump of the decompressor.. the knocking sound of the release by hand rotation is normal so. Hmm i will count the bpm of the sound at idle to know it is related at each turns or every two turns.

Is it hard to see if its spring related
Addicted
2019 MP3 500 HPE Business
Joined: 06 Oct 2012
Posts: 821
Location: Paris - France
Wed May 25, 2016 12:17 pm quote
Nelson-MRQS wrote:
Rare to finds such experts on french forums
You asked your question on how many French forum ??
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Wed May 25, 2016 12:53 pm quote
Only 2 but maybe i asked on the wrong ones i cant say there is no helpful french forum. I can only say i tried 2 and i only received this reply "hmm pretty serious problem you better go with your scooter to a piaggio dealer". Its not a bad advice i xould just really want to try to fix it by myself to learn.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Wed May 25, 2016 12:56 pm quote
So here is my progression: the decompressor spring is ok i think the next step will be to remove rocker arms and camshaft to look for evidence of wear but im not confident. (I start to believe it comes from the crankshaft)
Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: UK
Wed May 25, 2016 11:30 pm quote
Nelson-MRQS wrote:
So here is my progression: the decompressor spring is ok i think the next step will be to remove rocker arms and camshaft to look for evidence of wear but im not confident. (I start to believe it comes from the crankshaft)
OK but first check the two guide/tensioning blades on each side of the timing chain.
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5532
Location: South Carolina
Sat May 28, 2016 10:35 am quote
Drain the oil and remove the oil pan and look for metal. Judging from the noise, you will find some. I am inclined to believe it's the main bearing on the left side.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5432
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sat May 28, 2016 10:49 am quote
This actually sounds just like when I had my wife's MP3 250 valves adjusted SUPER loose.
Seriously, I made the proper adjustment and the noise went right away.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Sat May 28, 2016 10:56 am quote
Would be pretty cool but i can confirm you thats not it i readjusted myseld my friend motorcycle mechanic will inspect it next week i will keep you in touch
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5432
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Sat May 28, 2016 11:11 am quote
Nelson-MRQS wrote:
Would be pretty cool but i can confirm you thats not it i readjusted myseld my friend motorcycle mechanic will inspect it next week i will keep you in touch
I adjusted the valves on my wife's too. Got it wrong. I'll hope for you that this is the case.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:37 am quote
Sorry for my long absence i had lot going on and no time to spend on my mp3 so i figured out what is my problem. Its obviously the camshaft and the exhaust rocker dont knox how this happened.. 20000km no oil level problems.. strange..

I am now wondering what are the minimum requirements to replace the camshaft
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:30 am quote
I would be *very* surprised to find it was a camshaft mechanical issue. Seriously - the shaft itself is under minimal load and that just from the valves and springs.
Pretty sure all Piaggio engines are interference, meaning valves can hit the piston should they get out of time. Have you checked the cam timing?
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:42 am quote
Yes i went to a piaggio dealer who checked it for free but he told me that without hesitation it seems to be a common issue on these engines the base plates of the rockerarms and the camshaft degrading mostly the exhaust part.

I saw it in a other forum too
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:45 am quote
And i also checked with an endoscope by the sparkplug hole and i can confirm that the piston do not hit the valves
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:53 am quote
But i trust your knowledge and will me pleased to check if you can explain me how
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:56 pm quote
Nope - if the 300 has a known issue then go with it.
I'd be beating on Piaggios door if it were a common issue. They get a free pass on what should be warranty and recall issues. Suzuki just had an issue with the DL-650's with a tappet problem and they did a voluntary recall to fix it. Piaggio seems to think their owners are too stupid to demand they back up their expensive bikes with any kind of responsibility.
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:36 pm quote
Fine i will try to but i have no evidence that i did not ride with low oil or something maybe they will fire that kind of excuse to me. I will keep you in touch. Thanks again everyone for you help!

Ps: i checked the chain yiming with my uncle (he is car mechanic but he knew gow to do it) and the timing is ok. :/
Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 17, 2016 1:16 am quote
Hello everyone! Thanks again for your support throughout my investigation! Here is an update for those with the same problem:

So i disassembled the camshaft and rocker arms and its definatly this
one cam is totaly squared ( exhaust one) and the rockerarms are not in good shape. (check pictures below)

I only one question left i unscrewed the chain tensionner but i wasnt able to neither remove him nor put him back he is stuck between the gasket and the ECU. Any steps to follow?

Thanks again

20160616_230918.jpg
exhaust rocker

20160616_231045.jpg
admission rocker

20160616_231126.jpg
camshaft

Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1113
Location: UK
Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:46 am quote
That has to be a lubrication issue. Last seen on Ford Pinto engines ( 2 litre 4-cylinder single OHC) and the original Honda CB250/350 from the 1970s. In the case of the Pinto there was an oil delivery pipe which sometimes pointed in the wrong direction. The original Honda engines suffered if used for short journeys because oil took too long to reach the cam followers from cold startup.

Most modern OHC bike engines are designed with a reservoir of oil which remains in the head to aid lubrication when starting up.

Try to understand the way oil is pumped to the camshafts and check that there are no obstructions. If you don't know the history of the scooter is it possible that it was used for very short journeys or with the wrong oil?

Is it the original camshaft? After market tuners are notorious for providing high lift or reground camshaft with inadequate hardening.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5432
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:48 am quote
So what you're saying is, your valves were REALLY out of spec?


Just kidding with you. Really cool (from the outside) to see that, good on you for tearing into it.
And good luck on the repair.

Member
Piaggio MP3 LT 300 ie 2011
Joined: 22 May 2016
Posts: 20
Location: France
Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:49 am quote
Its all factory set up and the lubrification is ok i suspect the past owner for running with no oil and the first treated layer of camshaft and rockerarms as been damaged but the symptoms just showed up after my usage
Lurker
Aprilia SR Max 300
Joined: 21 Aug 2019
Posts: 1
Location: Egypt
Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:10 am quote
Hello,

I think that reply after a long time from the date of the post has Published.
but I faced the same issue in my Scooter.
I have Aprilia SR MAX 300 with speedometer 13000 KM and my camshaft and rocker are knocking hard too.
and I had to change it with another one it used before in another engine.
And it was working smoothly. but when I'm got the speed up of 120 km.
the sound starts knocking again.

now I'm just wanna know what the reason for that sounds. and I'm afraid to change it with a new one without figure what the reason for that.

So I wanna know after you changed it did the sounds back again with you.
and if it back what did you do.

Thanks in advance
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