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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:24 am quote
Struggling to find an indicator issue. Italian 1999 PX200 with battery.

All four indicators work fine but when going at speed, say 6,000 rpm and above, both rear indicators stop working. When I slow down all four work again. This happens almost everytime I am crusing along and it's getting annoying.

I have checked all connections and all seems ok. Any ideas?

Last edited by Jack221 on Sat May 25, 2019 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
1984 PX(177)EFL
Joined: 14 Apr 2017
Posts: 184
Location: Cornwall UK
Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:00 am quote
Nothing you wonít have already thought of;

Loose bulbs at that particular speed/vibration? Ė Insulation tape or elastic band round collar of bulb to keep them tight.
Failing Flasher Relay internals at that particular speed/vibration? Ė Swap relay.
Sidepanel connections at that particular speed/vibration? Ė Check depth of +ve contact against contact going into hole to ensure spring is tight.

After tiring of chasing dodgy grounding on sidepanels, I add an extra wire from rear of light fitting to flywheel cover, with spade connecter either end and an inline bullet connector for ease of removal; it means the top spring-contact isnít necessary for indicators to work:



I also solder-up where the connector fits to back of bulb holder; itís just a soft-metal rivet, which has worked when tested on the bench (when Iím holding it), but failed in-situ (under vibration?); hereís a couple of old spares I have to hand to illustrate:



If you have the same AC relay as non-battery model (Iíve gone DC now so no longer applies), then as you know, itís the red (red/black on yours?) from relay that does rear indicators, and also the tell-tale on the speedo; whatís that doing when indicators fail? Maybe that connector vibrates loose on the relay or that circuit elsewhere?
Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1812

Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:03 pm quote
Just went through something similar. If it's a 1999, it might be the same thing, the special Piaggio AC "electronic flasher device". Try to catch it when it's not working and see if the circuit that feeds just the rear indicators is even getting voltage from the "flasher device".

2005 PX 150 turn signal problem
Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 656

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:50 pm quote
Itís been so long since Iíve indicated.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:34 pm quote
sime66 wrote:
If you have the same AC relay as non-battery model (Iíve gone DC now so no longer applies), then as you know, itís the red (red/black on yours?) from relay that does rear indicators, and also the tell-tale on the speedo; whatís that doing when indicators fail? Maybe that connector vibrates loose on the relay or that circuit elsewhere?
It seems like it is very similar to pdxjim and this is might be it. I know when the rear indicators don't work as the speedo indicator doesn't flash. The front are always fine. I believe that it affects both rear indicators each time; if the left rear doesn't work, switching right won't work either. Slow down and all four work again, everytime.

I have re-checked the connections, all appear as good as usual.

I think it will either be the switch or the flasher (the times the rear indicators are on a common feed), as the indicators are AC on mine and its rpm related, it just has to be the flasher unit. I'll order a new one.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2963
Location: Bangkok
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:26 am quote
Vespa has been bought by BMW. It can only be the reason?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:18 am quote
So far so good
Got a new flasher unit Seems to have done the trick! No non indicating events yet.

Seems to flash slower than before but working, so no big issue and I'll get used to it. Thanks to all.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3818
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:57 am quote
Ah sometimes it is the simple stuff, thank goodness.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
T5s
Joined: 19 Feb 2009
Posts: 17006
Location: The West Of Yorkshire ... Gods Country
Sun Apr 22, 2018 1:31 pm quote
2 hats
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
Itís been so long since Iíve indicated.
you own a BMW?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:24 pm quote
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 991
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:45 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
I've used this one and it works fine (led flasher).
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/flashers-load-resistors/cf12anl-01-led-bulb-electronic-flasher/781/835/

amber led flasher bulbs:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/7507-py21w-led-bulb-18-smd-led-tower-bau15s-retrofit-car/527/1703/

license plate bulb:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/67-led-bulb-12-led-tower-ba15s-retrofit/3698/8009/

red brake bulb:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/tail-brake-turn/1157-led-bulb-dual-function-27-smd-led-tower-bay15d-bulb/2625/5698/

parking light in headlight:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-wedge-base/921-led-bulb-15-smd-led-tower-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/910/11267/

I've also used these speedo bulbs to change all the speedo indicator lights except the ac based ones (headlights, and speedo illumination lights will flicker with led). got the appropriate colors for each:
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/instrument-cluster-gauge/74-led-bulb-1-smd-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/227/1064/

Im running all these leds on my stella and battery is fully charged at all times.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:03 am; edited 4 times in total
Enthusiast
PX150E
Joined: 28 Oct 2018
Posts: 50
Location: Florida, USA
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
Are you sure your indicators work on AC? I had a P200E w/o battery and probably it had an AC flasher unit (never an issue). My current 12V PX 150 has the battery, but it would make no sense having a battery only to have the blinkers work on AC. Blinkers should work on DC power, along with horn and brake light. Just to make my blinkers work faster than stock, I replaced the flasher unit with a 3-prong electronic type (not for LED bulbs) commonly available at any auto parts store. Aside from the square shape, instead of cylindrical, the blinkers work great at any speed, since the flasher is unaffected by changes in voltage with the RPMS rising and falling.
Enthusiast
PX150E
Joined: 28 Oct 2018
Posts: 50
Location: Florida, USA
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:49 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
Are you sure your indicators work on AC? I had a P200E w/o battery and probably it had an AC flasher unit (never an issue). My current 12V PX 150 has the battery, but it would make no sense having a battery only to have the blinkers work on AC. Blinkers should work on DC power, along with horn and brake light. Just to make my blinkers work faster than stock, I replaced the flasher unit with a 3-prong electronic type (not for LED bulbs) commonly available at any auto parts store. Aside from the square shape, instead of cylindrical, the blinkers work great at any speed, since the flasher is unaffected by changes in voltage with the RPMS rising and falling.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 991
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:55 am quote
sp949 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
Are you sure your indicators work on AC? I had a P200E w/o battery and probably it had an AC flasher unit (never an issue). My current 12V PX 150 has the battery, but it would make no sense having a battery only to have the blinkers work on AC. Blinkers should work on DC power, along with horn and brake light. Just to make my blinkers work faster than stock, I replaced the flasher unit with a 3-prong electronic type (not for LED bulbs) commonly available at any auto parts store. Aside from the square shape, instead of cylindrical, the blinkers work great at any speed, since the flasher is unaffected by changes in voltage with the RPMS rising and falling.
If he's switching to LED bulbs, you need an LED flasher unit, otherwise the bulbs flash at an insanely fast rate. something to do with how much lower power draw the leds use changes the flash rate from the higher power draw filament bulbs. A LED flasher units flash rate is designed for the lower power draw.
Enthusiast
PX150E
Joined: 28 Oct 2018
Posts: 50
Location: Florida, USA
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:55 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
sp949 wrote:
Jack221 wrote:
I've decided I don't like the new cheap flasher unit. Although it works, it flashes too slow and makes the headlight flicker (even at higher rpm).

I re-tried two older original Italian flasher units and it hasn't fixed itself, either one works perfect up to 6000 rpm but stop when revved above that.

The plan. As this scooter has a battery but with AC indicators and AC lights its easily possible to change the indicators from AC to DC. This one has the clear covers with orange bulbs. Will get some amber LED bulbs at the same time.

To avoid too much re-wiring, anyone know of a DC flasher unit that directly replaces the AC one?
Are you sure your indicators work on AC? I had a P200E w/o battery and probably it had an AC flasher unit (never an issue). My current 12V PX 150 has the battery, but it would make no sense having a battery only to have the blinkers work on AC. Blinkers should work on DC power, along with horn and brake light. Just to make my blinkers work faster than stock, I replaced the flasher unit with a 3-prong electronic type (not for LED bulbs) commonly available at any auto parts store. Aside from the square shape, instead of cylindrical, the blinkers work great at any speed, since the flasher is unaffected by changes in voltage with the RPMS rising and falling.
If he's switching to LED bulbs, you need an LED flasher unit, otherwise the bulbs flash at an insanely fast rate. something to do with how much lower power draw the leds use changes the flash rate from the higher power draw filament bulbs. A LED flasher units flash rate is designed for the lower power draw.
Agreed. And an electronic flasher for LED bulbs is available at all auto parts stores as well. It also has 3 prongs and is plug an play. The only physical difference is that it is a cube in shape, but still fits in the existing rubber holder by the battery.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:41 pm quote
On the Euro models the battery only powers the horn and starter. Everything else is AC. Normally everything on AC works fine but with the big difference of no engine running means no lights. In the US they probably thought this was important and changed it.

Thanks for the links and info, confirmed that this has a chance of working.

The Euro AC indicators use a two pole flasher unit to conserve power. This allows the front and rear indicators to flash opposite to each other. If there is no two pole LED equivalent, I'll join the front wires to the back and they will flash at the same time like on US models. Being LED there will be no load anyway.

I do think the overall problem with the AC issue is the regulator. The scooter revs to 9000 rpm (often ) and its probably damaged it a little making it go all frequency sensitive on load. Hopefully it won't pop before this is done.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1472
Location: London UK
Sat May 25, 2019 3:12 am quote
Did this about a month ago and working great

Fitted a DC single pole flasher unit that said it was ok for LED. Didnt cut any of the loom but made some small links to join the back and front indicators together and another to cut into the regulator DC input from the key.

LED bulbs fitted in the back. Tested but didn't flash. Had fitted the flasher in reverse. Turned around and all good. Flashes fine. Rev it as high as you like and still flashes.

Now all good for weaving in and out of M25 motorway traffic at ridiculous speeds again!

DC.jpg
All fitted back in the rubber and battery box hides the mess.

Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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