Soft Seize First Ride Rally 74
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Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:59 am quote
This post begins with reading Richard's jetting questions regarding his installation of new exhaust on his new 2001 PX 200. "Hi all + SIP Road Exhaust question" a really good post, good questions and good answers. Richard asked if his modifications were safe and this happened,
Quote:
Thank you guys, I very much appreciate the assistance and advice.

New exhaust successfully installed. No upjetting or air filter drilling yet. Is either one necessary? More importantly: is it safe? This Vespa is my only ride (no car!) and I use it a lot. I don't want to run into any mechanical issues if there's any chance upjetting or drilling the air filter can cause that.
The drilled filter is far from necessary, but the upjetting goes hand in hand with the exhaust upgrade and most certainly is. Please do it soon if you want to avoid those mechanical issues you talk of.


EDIT: To answer whether it's safe, and to emphasise the need to upjet, if you don't, you run the risk of locking up the engine/back wheel when travelling at speed which you really don't want to do. If you drill the air filter it will just mean increasing the jet size even more. I hope that's clear.

Halijaro answered the "Is it Safe" and mentioned rear wheel lockup. I realized I had to own my own embarrassing mistake.
Quote:
Honestly, that is the most important post on this page. Read it very carefully. While you are testing your new Vespa, be prepared for a soft seize or a lock up. Most of us try to be prepared and still they surprise us. Soft seize often is when too much heat or not enough T2 oil, or both occur and the piston ring stops traveling against the piston wall. This stops the bike slowly, "soft seize" or very quickly..like instant fricken lock up at 40 miles per hour. Pulling the clutch as fast as you can and slowing down will hopefully save you.

This happened to me last Monday Night with out warning at 40 mph. Fortunately there had been a tiny amount of rain on the empty road and the solid lockup squealed as I controlled my speed. Really thought I was going to dump it. Squealing rear tire, mint bike wobbled hard and dived to the left as the weight and inertia of the 200 cc motor inside the right cowl celebrated its kinetic energy abundance over the mass of the battery and the spare tire under the left cowl. I know the P200 is much like the Rally, I don't know how different the PX is.

I have not posted about this yet as I need to do some investigating on this Rally 200 that followed me home.

After it cooled down for about 1 minute it started up first kick. Let it cool for a bit longer and road it the last 1/2 mile home. It had no issue. It's parked and waiting for me to check autolube and jets. Everything is original. 1600 miles on the clock. The fuel and oil lines were replaced with black opaque lines.
( Interesting )

I'll start a new post when I have information. I want to stress the engine seize issue, as if this is your only transportation, you will likely be riding in traffic. Had I had that hard seize in busy traffic, I would not be writing this and no one would EVER have known why I suddenly locked up and slid under the truck speeding behind me.

Good post Halijaro!!
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:15 am quote
I was planning on doing most of this in Private Messages, but I realize that If do that, it will not serve the knowledge and wisdom part of Modern Vespa.

Background. I have been owned by 3 previous rallys. This bike has 1500 miles and has basically never been serviced. Previous owner stored in garage, and kept fuel fresh. He replaced both the fuel and oil lines. ( Interesting as the bike other wise looks great - completely unmolested. ) The fuel and oil line replacements hoses are black and opaque. Bike starts first kick. Extremely normally clean, ie. not power washed.

What could go wrong riding this beautiful bike for 1 mile? I thought. During my ride I thought I could smell the Motul and did not suspect there was any issue. It was raining so perhaps I am mistaken.

My plan now is to first inspect the carb and then to replace fuel and oil lines, bleed air out of these and rebuild the carb. I am hoping there is 44 year old dried oil in the oil channel or a bubble in the oil line. Before I replace the carb I am going to bench the scooter and view down the air fuel oil intake into the case and observe the oil gears operation while I spin the rear wheel while in gear.

I'll of course send photos. I am hoping to discover what caused the soft seize.
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2939
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:37 am quote
Honestly I don't have a clue what you are talking about
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2259
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:58 am quote
You might also have a blown seal causing a massive air leak, which could also cause a lean enough condition to produce a seize.

You should assume that 30 year old seals are probably not going to hold up long, if at all, and fail badly when they do.
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2939
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:28 am quote
Yeah there's lots of stuff that can lean it out till it runs too hot. I just don't know what the OP is asking.

Having info also helps. What bike, what motor, what mods, soft seize or hard seize, jetting????? Did it seize or just drip oil onto exhaust?


I don't run any modified bike without a CHT minimum.
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 pm quote
I spoke to a friend who has an amazing shop. We are going to replace all the seals and gaskets. Despite how minty the scoot looks, I keep telling myself, "its 44 years old and has never been serviced"! The first kick starts keep tricking me that every thing is just fine for a cruse. I hope to start taking it apart next week. I'd like to take it to the Land of 10k rally. But I may exercise discipline and self restraint.
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:20 pm quote
Thanks to the recommendation over on Richards SIP exhaust / jetting post I ordered the Trail Tech CHT 14mm that puts its thermister in the place of the spark plug crush washer. My next predictable question is temperature range? What programmed temperature would be reasonable temp to set the alarm to sound?
I think I could first install it onto my 76 Rally and see what it records. But I told myself I purchased the 74 so I would not be riding the 76. But where is the fun in that? The 76 now has 840 miles on the clock and is just getting broken in. The 74 has 1600 and likely is almost broken in, especially with the soft seize right?! Scooterraton, what temperatures are you seeing? Did you ever run a CHT on a stock configuration?
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3283
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:46 pm quote
One thing I found on one of my old original 74 Rallyís was junk in the oil tank tap. Flow was restricted when I removed the hose off the tap. I unscrewed the tap from the tank and it was blocked with something that resembled margarine. The taps are unobtanium now so be careful if you do decide to unscrew it. You could also try dumping all the oil out and washing it/gasoline flushes.

Besides the rebuild youíre planning on check out the stator wiring. Original stator wires will be crumbly and could leave you stranded. Itís a little more time, but itís worth it when you need it!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1558
Location: London UK
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:49 pm quote
If the 74 is the one with the new oil lines, someone has been in there before. Definitely worth flushing the oil tank and check the flow (dribble).

The safe CHT temp is 300F on the plug. Any more than that after several miles of cruising means something is not right. Some will get to 450F before seizing, so no need to panic at 320F on a WOT run. The usual causes of high temperature are either timing or jetting but mostly just jetting.
Ossessionato
1964 GS 160 MK II, 1967 Vespa GT, 1968 SS180, 1964 Vespa GL, 1964 Vespa VBB, 2006 Buddy 125, 2013 BMW C650GT
Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 2939
Location: Boca Raton, Florida
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:01 am quote
I will usually run to 350 (iron) or 400 (aluminum nicasil lined) degrees F when I know I'm pushing it. These are the temps that I use but they may not be correct for your set up (statement known as CMA!).

Different CHTs will also record different temps. I have noticed that a SIP speedo CHT reads much lower than a Westach on the same motor same set up. Where you are measuring the temperature can also make a difference. Measuring at a stud instead of the plug can give different readings.

Remember to always start out fat (rich) and work your way down. A fouled plug is much better than a seized motor!

This is probably the best description of temps and was provided by oopsclunkthud.
A case for Temperature Gauges
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:43 am quote
I received my gasket and carb rebuild parts and fuel / oil lines from Eric at 2nd Avenue. I removed the air-box and carb and tank yesterday. Significantly lacquered up. I'll post before and after photos soon. Float and other parts relatively clean. Oil pump connection very loose. Fuel line and oil line flowed extremely slow. My guess is the fuel tank and petcock are blocked. I am now suspecting my soft seize was due to fuel shortage. I'm thinking that as i rode it the first mile, the fuel in the line had enough to get me the one mile, and after i parked it it slowly filled back up, and on my return the volume in the carb and fuel line was not enough to sustain the mile long ride home.

I not going to disassemble the oil supply banjo, as recommended. I am going to flush it out with gas and Volkswagen/Audi fuel additive and compressed air. I am going to take apart the fuel petcock and replace the fuel and oil hose with the correct fuel and oil line. I'll inspect the petcock gasket and may replace it. Fuel tank is not terrible but it definitely needs to be cleaned and inspected. I'll be using the same gasoline and VW/Audi fuel additive as a cleaner. I'm going to fill the tank with 3/4 of an inch full and add a bunch of ferrous metal nuts and then shake / agitate the tank while it soaks in the cleaning solution to knock loose and debris sticking inside of the tank. I'll try to get a before and after of the tank. I am also using a Zep mild citrus spray on cleaner to remove grime on the motor. It is working very well and seems to not hurt the paint or rubber at all.

Interesting observation, the painted area behind the engine cowl is all a slightly darker white color. It is so perfectly coated it looks like the exterior of the bike has faded, but since it wipes off its film. It looks like there has been a constant out gassing of oil that has coated the area. I have not noticed this on my other bikes. I wonder if the loose oil pump fitting has caused enough oil to leak and cook and vapor deposit a coating all over the inside? Or is that normal for a Rally 200 1600 miles?
Addicted
Viet-bodge
Joined: 15 May 2016
Posts: 724
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:37 am quote
Lango,

I have a TrailTech CHT gauge as well. I definitely recommend attaching it to a cylinder stud instead of replacing the plug's crush washer. It responds quicker under the plug, but it becomes a major PITA to pull and install the plug.

Best,
-Slashy
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:49 am quote
Ok, that sounds better in all cases. Did you use the 12mm or the 14mm? I am guessing the 12mm? Thank you for the recommendation.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4887
Location: So Cal
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:13 am quote
I recommend putting it under the plug. Iíve never had trouble removing or replacing it. I think it reacts faster there and gives a more accurate temperature. I could be wrong, but no seizes yet.
Addicted
Viet-bodge
Joined: 15 May 2016
Posts: 724
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:20 am quote
Lango,
I actually chopped down the ring and re-bent it to fit the stud. Off the top of my head, I think the stud is 7mm diameter.
SoCal had no problem with his install, and I had major headaches with mine So there's that... Perhaps there's a difference in the head itself; the fins run really close to the plug on mine.

Best,
-Slashy
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7347
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:57 pm quote
The stud is 8mm on 200 motors, 7mm on smaller. You can Dremel a bit of relief into the close by fins if you use the plug, can be miserable otherwise. Also install cylinder shroud after the CHT lead to make access easier.

@slash- how's it going, good to see you haven't given up. Are you rebuilding & riding again soon?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1558
Location: London UK
Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:13 pm quote
Personally I've tried under the stud before but prefer the plug. The accuracy is important to the power. And as the consensus is coming to realise.....hotter is not more powerful
Addicted
Viet-bodge
Joined: 15 May 2016
Posts: 724
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:45 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
The stud is 8mm on 200 motors, 7mm on smaller. You can Dremel a bit of relief into the close by fins if you use the plug, can be miserable otherwise. Also install cylinder shroud after the CHT lead to make access easier.

@slash- how's it going, good to see you haven't given up. Are you rebuilding & riding again soon?
V oodoo,
I rebuilt as soon as I was healed up, and ride every day the weather permits

Chasing down the source of my overheating was tedious and also nerve wracking, but I seem to have it sorted out now. It's *really* hard to force yourself to push the limits on a bike after an accident with significant injury.
It was the throttle slide itself. The Spaco carbs come with throttle slides that have a cutout in the bottom to bypass bleed air. Works fine for stock motors, but it's a menace in modified engines. I replaced the throttle slide with a NOS throttle slide from an early P200 and it immediately fixed the problem. Thanks, ScooterMercato!

I'm off to Colorado next weekend on a bike adventure.

Best,
-Slashy
Enthusiast
Vespa PX200
Joined: 11 Jun 2018
Posts: 75
Location: Wexford, Ireland
Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:34 am quote
Thanks for sharing LANGO.
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:57 pm quote
So little update and still working on photos. Here is what I have found to date: Carb and airbox were covered in old fuel reside and carb was gunked up with residue so they have all been cleaned, oil pump checked and cleaned and oil line properly tightened. Oil pump gear from the engine case turns smoothly and is engaged to the main oil pump gear in the housing. Fuel tank has been cleaned and a new fuel valve installed along with new oil and gas lines. Scooter is getting good fuel flow to the carb but won't start as we are not getting a spark. As a side note, we did a gearbox oil change and drained out over 32 oz. of oil that a previous owner had added. Yes, 32 oz! Added fresh 250cc so all is good there and motor kicks over fine but still no spark. Battery is on the charger as it was showing 6.1 volts but lights and horn were working. Before we dug into the soft seize issue the bike was starting on the first kick and now no spark. We did not touch any electrical or wiring and feel a very low pulse of spark when holding the plug lead. Any thoughts on a weak or non existent spark after doing the work on the fuel and oil systems? Does battery charge have any effect on starting and ignition? '74 200 Rally USA model
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7347
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Aug 04, 2018 4:25 pm quote
Do '74s say Femsatronic on the stock electronic ignition? I think that's what you have and they can be a problem finding stock replacements. My '76 came to me w/ an Italian aftermarket ignition from CEAB something like this: https://www.scooterworks.com/CDI-Electronic-Ignition-Vespa-Rally-200-E-301-P1532.aspx


The stock Femsatronic is one piece, but when my Ceab died I was able to replace just the HT coil and got it working again. Your battery should have nothing to do with it, I removed the battery on my Rally and did this: http://modernvespa.com/forum/post1753966#1753966
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:07 am quote
Yes V oodoo, This '74 is Femsatronic as is my other 74. My 76 is also Femsatronic. The 77 is Ducati and perhaps that is when Piaggio made the change. I have found the 40+ year old wiring to be in dreadful condition mostly in the stator area. One wire has lost all of its insulation. There is a small amount of spark but likely not enough to be useful. I suspect the terrible wires are loosing all the voltage before it even gets to the Femsatronic. After I replace these I'll have a better idea. My friend Jon has owned numerous classic motorcycles and Vespas and he is telling me that the Rally should be fine after we reconstruct this part of the harness. Of course I worry about the other wires as well. He thinks overall the bike is very good. Time will tell. Thank you for the CDI recommendation.
Hooked
'65 Sprint 177
Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Dorset, UK
Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:24 am quote
Quote:
I have found the 40+ year old wiring to be in dreadful condition mostly in the stator area. One wire has lost all of its insulation.
I think youve kind of answered your own question there Lango...get some new copper in there!

Kevin
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:09 am quote
Oh yes. It has been my experience with these older bikes that I expect to find all kinds of surprises! Especially the lower mileage bikes that have been garage art for years. Maybe that is what makes them so enjoyable to own, ride and repair..
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1316
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:37 am quote
Hey Lango - I've been watching this one with interest, and waiting for pictures! It sounds like you've almost got it sorted. I'd say it looks like, but I haven't seen any pics.

An orange rally caught my eye ages ago and ever since then I've kept a casual (sometime not so casual) lookout for a rally that's been parked somewhere - just waiting - for when the time is right - for me to scoop it up and ride it all the time. But don't mention this to Ruby, the P200.

BTW, it looks like you've got quite the collection going on. Got any pics of the herd?
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:36 pm quote
'74 Rally wiring issues discovered after we serviced the fuel lines, fuel tap, oil line, carb gaskets, and auto lube pump.

IMG_4352.JPG
74 R.2. & Lurking Blue 62 VBB

IMG_4353.JPG
Wires looking a little rough. Ok, they are really well done. Like tasty delicious.

IMG_4361.PNG
I can't understand why it is having issues making a good spark?

IMG_4356.JPG
If you hold your computer upside down, the orange CDI unit says Femsatronic

Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1316
Location: Florence, OR
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:43 pm quote
Lango wrote:
'74 Rally wiring issues discovered after we serviced the fuel lines, fuel tap, oil line, carb gaskets, and auto lube pump.
Holy Fried Wires Batman! No wonder spark was low! Nice looking scoot. I'm glad you're getting it sorted!
Hooked
62 VBB 64 GL Rally 200s 74s-76-77 P200s 79-82
Joined: 21 Jul 2013
Posts: 128
Location: Tucson
Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:46 am quote
The "B" side.

IMG_4364(1).jpg
"B" is for battery. Original wing nut & metal battery bracket. I May replace it so it will not not vibrate and fall off. Yep - original CEAT spare. Replacing all tires with Michelin S1's

74-W_R200-NoID.jpg
74 AZ License & break-in details on G-box. Replacement seat waiting for SIP Piaggio logo cover. I need to get a GS to match this license plate, right?

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