Can I run e85 in my motor?
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:58 am quote
Can I run e85 in my motor? I'm asking cuz the compression in my engine is kind of high (14:1) and I'll HAVE to run race gas 112 octane and the nearest dude who sells 112 is 30 minutes away and it's 12 bucks a gallon which is redicullous so I wanna run e85, I know most oils don't mix with e85 but I have a oil that does (Klotz super techniplate) and I do plan on purging the whole system after I'm finished using the bike.
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:02 am quote
You might want to ask on the not-so-modern forum since many more people there will be running two-stroke.

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Miguel
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:03 am quote
Miguel wrote:
You might want to ask on the not-so-modern forum since many more people there will be running two-stroke.

Best
Miguel
Oh didn't know
Grumpy Biker
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:32 am quote
There are a few things you'll need to consider:

1) Will all the rubber bits in the fuel system allow e85? Some rubber hoses, gaskets, o-rings, etc. will swell up and get soft when exposed to ethanol. Those will have to be removed and replaced with a rubber compound that is ok with ethanol.

2) What jetting will you need on your carburetor? e85 burns significantly hotter than regular gasoline. The way you combat the heat is by adding more fuel. This will require you to rejet your carburetor. Expect your fuel mileage to drop ~25% as a result.

3) Timing. You're likely to need to make some changes to ignition timing because of the different burn-rate of e85 vs gasoline.

All my experience with e85 is running it with turbo charged 4-stroke engines. I'm sure there are some 2-stroke specific issues that you may need to consider as well.

Is it worth it? HECK yeah! I have eliminated all knocking (predetotonation) issues from my Subaru STi by running e85. I run higher than stock boost pressure, more advanced ignition timing, and I picked up 60whp. The only downside... 14mpg. Also, not every station in town carries e85. Luckily there is one 5 miles from my home.

-Craig
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:44 am quote
caschnd1 wrote:
There are a few things you'll need to consider:

1) Will all the rubber bits in the fuel system allow e85? Some rubber hoses, gaskets, o-rings, etc. will swell up and get soft when exposed to ethanol. Those will have to be removed and replaced with a rubber compound that is ok with ethanol.

2) What jetting will you need on your carburetor? e85 burns significantly hotter than regular gasoline. The way you combat the heat is by adding more fuel. This will require you to rejet your carburetor. Expect your fuel mileage to drop ~25% as a result.

3) Timing. You're likely to need to make some changes to ignition timing because of the different burn-rate of e85 vs gasoline.

All my experience with e85 is running it with turbo charged 4-stroke engines. I'm sure there are some 2-stroke specific issues that you may need to consider as well.

Is it worth it? HECK yeah! I have eliminated all knocking (predetotonation) issues from my Subaru STi by running e85. I run higher than stock boost pressure, more advanced ignition timing, and I picked up 60whp. The only downside... 14mpg. Also, not every station in town carries e85. Luckily there is one 5 miles from my home.

-Craig
yeah i plan on rejeting and i do plan on replacing half the fuel system. thx for the info
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:23 am quote
Personally I would not go near e-85 I have seen what it does to the gas pumps hoses and after a year they need to be replaced. Use a octane booster. You can get it almost anywhere
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:28 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
Personally I would not go near e-85 I have seen what it does to the gas pumps hoses and after a year they need to be replaced. Use a octane booster. You can get it almost anywhere
From what I've heard octane boosters are snake oil, like I said I do plan on changing the fuel lines and stuff like that to stuff that's alcohol resistant.
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:11 pm quote
You heard wrong.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:11 pm quote
2smokersFTW wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
Personally I would not go near e-85 I have seen what it does to the gas pumps hoses and after a year they need to be replaced. Use a octane booster. You can get it almost anywhere
From what I've heard octane boosters are snake oil, like I said I do plan on changing the fuel lines and stuff like that to stuff that's alcohol resistant.
muscle car guys have been using it for years as a lot of those built street motors require higher octane. I would like to know your sources for the ďI heard itís snake oilĒ. Good luck finding e-85 approved fuel lines and carb gaskets as I have not seen any for motorcycles yet and definitely nothing for scooters
Grumpy Biker
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Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:22 pm quote
I have a Cobb Accessport in my Subaru that gives me all kinds of telemetry on "fine knock", DAM (dynamic advance multiplier), etc. These are all indicators of predetination. I found that adding octane booster was ineffective at improving these numbers. So I started mixing 110 octane race fuel with 91 pump gas. This was effective, but a hassle and expensive. With e85 all the "fine knock" has disappeared and DAM has not dropped below 100% (the desired reading). I'm not sold on octane booster at all.

-Craig
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Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:43 am quote
Here's why octane boosters are considered "snake oil". Octane boosters do work to a certain extent.
Fuel octane is the ratio of Isooctane(branched-chain smooth burning) vs heptane(straight-chain knocks badly)isomers. Gas can never be more than 100% Isooctane so anti knock additives are used in racing fuel.
Octane boosters are anti knock additives so obviously it preforms better in gas with less heptane in it.
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Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:35 am quote
Just make sure your oil is compatible along with your fuel system parts.
Hooked
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Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:00 pm quote
What's your setup that you must run high octane?
Molto Verboso
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Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:21 pm quote
what carb are you running?

the biggest problem is jetting; you need to run a jet 3-4 times larger than with gas, and unless you are running something like a large mikuni you will not have large enough internal passages to feed the size of jets you'll need.

most carbs don't even have large enough jets available in the smaller venturi sizes you'll use with a derbi 50.
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Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:34 am quote
Just to combat the negative posters. From me research and use of E85, itís an amazing fuel and when tuned correctly, it will be far superior to straight Dino juice. You also donít have to worry about water as much like e10. Due to the fact that e85 can absorb a lot of water without fall out. Anyway, just a positive note that I would run E85 over petrol any and every day.

Sadly, it wonít be a prevailing fuel source as electric is coming along at a rapid pace. In my opinion!
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Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:06 am quote
matty5 wrote:
What's your setup that you must run high octane?
the cylinder is a athena racing cylinder (part number 08200) and it has 14:1 compression so 93 wont cut it.
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Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 am quote
rob hodge wrote:
what carb are you running?

the biggest problem is jetting; you need to run a jet 3-4 times larger than with gas, and unless you are running something like a large mikuni you will not have large enough internal passages to feed the size of jets you'll need.

most carbs don't even have large enough jets available in the smaller venturi sizes you'll use with a derbi 50.
the problem is i dont have a carb cuz i first wanna know if i can run e85, one dude on yt ran nitro rc fuel on his bike and he was using like a 32mm carb so thats what i plan on using.
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Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:09 am quote
also what about e85 and 93 mix?
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Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:20 am quote
keaton85 wrote:
Just to combat the negative posters. From me research and use of E85, itís an amazing fuel and when tuned correctly, it will be far superior to straight Dino juice. You also donít have to worry about water as much like e10. Due to the fact that e85 can absorb a lot of water without fall out. Anyway, just a positive note that I would run E85 over petrol any and every day.

Sadly, it wonít be a prevailing fuel source as electric is coming along at a rapid pace. In my opinion!
I used to run it in my truck on occasion. It was cheaper, but not cheap enough in my area to make up for the lack of milage. I also noticed no increase in performance. It was factory made for E85.
Hooked
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Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:12 pm quote
Not so much
Ethanol doesn't "burn hotter" than gas. It just requires a much lower air-fuel ratio. Where normal gas engines run around 13:1 air-fuel or leaner, ethanol engines run around 9:1. So you need more fuel. Good news is, most ethanol engine can be run "rich", so maybe 7.5 or 8 :1, without causing problems and providing additional cooling. Might even be able to crank that compression ratio, since the effective octane of ethanol is around 113, gaining back a little of the mileage lost.

Bad news is, since ethanol, per volume, has less energy than gas, mileage will suffer.
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Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:05 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
Personally I would not go near e-85 I have seen what it does to the gas pumps hoses and after a year they need to be replaced. Use a octane booster. You can get it almost anywhere
I wholeheartedly agree with you, OAD. There's a reason for this sticker being on the gas pumps...

th.jpg

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Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:49 am quote
Re: Not so much
Jimding wrote:
Ethanol doesn't "burn hotter" than gas. It just requires a much lower air-fuel ratio. Where normal gas engines run around 13:1 air-fuel or leaner, ethanol engines run around 9:1. So you need more fuel. Good news is, most ethanol engine can be run "rich", so maybe 7.5 or 8 :1, without causing problems and providing additional cooling. Might even be able to crank that compression ratio, since the effective octane of ethanol is around 113, gaining back a little of the mileage lost.

Bad news is, since ethanol, per volume, has less energy than gas, mileage will suffer.
Imo I don't really care about gas mileage cuz Im gonna race it. Would I be able to run e85 with 14:1 compression? Oh also do I have to run a colder spark plug?
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Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:13 pm quote
You should engineer a water-methanol injection unit. Maybe SIP offers one?
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Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:13 pm quote
yackee wrote:
You should engineer a water-methanol injection unit. Maybe SIP offers one?
What does that do? I've heard of it for cars but don't know what it does.
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Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:26 pm quote
Re: Not so much
2smokersFTW wrote:
Jimding wrote:
Ethanol doesn't "burn hotter" than gas. It just requires a much lower air-fuel ratio. Where normal gas engines run around 13:1 air-fuel or leaner, ethanol engines run around 9:1. So you need more fuel. Good news is, most ethanol engine can be run "rich", so maybe 7.5 or 8 :1, without causing problems and providing additional cooling. Might even be able to crank that compression ratio, since the effective octane of ethanol is around 113, gaining back a little of the mileage lost.

Bad news is, since ethanol, per volume, has less energy than gas, mileage will suffer.
Imo I don't really care about gas mileage cuz Im gonna race it. Would I be able to run e85 with 14:1 compression? Oh also do I have to run a colder spark plug?
Why not run c16?
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 3:35 pm quote
Re: Not so much
panchoboots wrote:
2smokersFTW wrote:
Jimding wrote:
Ethanol doesn't "burn hotter" than gas. It just requires a much lower air-fuel ratio. Where normal gas engines run around 13:1 air-fuel or leaner, ethanol engines run around 9:1. So you need more fuel. Good news is, most ethanol engine can be run "rich", so maybe 7.5 or 8 :1, without causing problems and providing additional cooling. Might even be able to crank that compression ratio, since the effective octane of ethanol is around 113, gaining back a little of the mileage lost.

Bad news is, since ethanol, per volume, has less energy than gas, mileage will suffer.
Imo I don't really care about gas mileage cuz Im gonna race it. Would I be able to run e85 with 14:1 compression? Oh also do I have to run a colder spark plug?
Why not run c16?
Nobody sells it near to me, why spend money on higher octane fuel when all I need is 112?
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:05 pm quote
C12 then? It's sold on eBay. Free shipping.
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:08 pm quote
panchoboots wrote:
C12 then? It's sold on eBay. Free shipping.
We're? The only one I see is local pick up And it's in illinois
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:01 pm quote
No wonder the shipping is free. According to the VP website there is a ton of VP branded has stations in Texas. I know it's a big state, but they should carry 5 gallon cans of race fuel. Are you doing drag Reece or round track?
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:59 pm quote
Why are you so fixated to the need of e85?? Did someone tell you that itís needed for this kit?? Athena is an Italian company. They wouldnít make something that needs special fuel, thatís not available in Europe. I was running 95 and sometimes 100 octane fuel on my Gilera Runner 50 with a Polini Evo kit back in the days. It had a 15,2:1 declared compression. Never had a problem and it was my daily scoot. It just needed a big carb. I had a 28 dellorto on it...
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Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:40 pm quote
leather bits
Miguel wrote:
You might want to ask on the not-so-modern forum since many more people there will be running two-stroke.

Best
Miguel
When's a modern not a modern? Arnt there vespa et2s on tother side?
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Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:14 am quote
panchoboots wrote:
No wonder the shipping is free. According to the VP website there is a ton of VP branded has stations in Texas. I know it's a big state, but they should carry 5 gallon cans of race fuel. Are you doing drag Reece or round track?
Track
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Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:16 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Why are you so fixated to the need of e85?? Did someone tell you that itís needed for this kit?? Athena is an Italian company. They wouldnít make something that needs special fuel, thatís not available in Europe. I was running 95 and sometimes 100 octane fuel on my Gilera Runner 50 with a Polini Evo kit back in the days. It had a 15,2:1 declared compression. Never had a problem and it was my daily scoot. It just needed a big carb. I had a 28 dellorto on it...
E85 is not needed fir this kit it's what I want to do to run, oh also even if it is able to run 100 octane (don't really want to test it) it is still really exoensive and not very local vs e85
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Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:50 am quote
I would say we beat you up enough about it I guess, but it's my understanding that ethanal is the last thing you want in a two stroke. C12 is supposed to be specifically for two strokes. I've ran it before out of curiosity on a stock set up. I had to lean it out significantly. I seemed to notice a power difference, and a definite increase in milage.
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Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:20 am quote
panchoboots wrote:
I would say we beat you up enough about it I guess, but it's my understanding that ethanal is the last thing you want in a two stroke. C12 is supposed to be specifically for two strokes. I've ran it before out of curiosity on a stock set up. I had to lean it out significantly. I seemed to notice a power difference, and a definite increase in milage.
I would run it if I could. FYI I do plan on purging the fuel system with standard gas to clean it up after every run so it won't carrode.
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Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:06 pm quote
Thought I'd add this gem from one of my heroes in all things 2T:
Frits Overmars wrote:
I have seen a lot of alternative methods, one even more daft than the other, like corrugated crankshafts that should act as ventilators (they would, if they would rotate ten times as fast), golf ball dimpling all over the place, and 'flame channels' in combustion chambers, that greatly improved detonation, as did thermal barriers on chambers and piston domes.
The alternative methods that do work, like supercharging and nitro, are forbidden in most branches of motorsport. With one exception: E85 is considered a regular fuel and it is permitted in many branches of motorsport. It works better than some expensive racing fuels... But don't spread the word.
Assuming you can jet for it...
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Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:53 pm quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Thought I'd add this gem from one of my heroes in all things 2T:
Frits Overmars wrote:
I have seen a lot of alternative methods, one even more daft than the other, like corrugated crankshafts that should act as ventilators (they would, if they would rotate ten times as fast), golf ball dimpling all over the place, and 'flame channels' in combustion chambers, that greatly improved detonation, as did thermal barriers on chambers and piston domes.
The alternative methods that do work, like supercharging and nitro, are forbidden in most branches of motorsport. With one exception: E85 is considered a regular fuel and it is permitted in many branches of motorsport. It works better than some expensive racing fuels... But don't spread the word.
Assuming you can jet for it...
Okaaaayyyyy so ur saying it would work?
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Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:41 pm quote
ethanol and 2T go very well together for power and heat management, milage will suffer and the fuel will take on water over time, so don't store it.

and if you tune for E85 you can't then run normal fuel, but yes it can work
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Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:13 pm quote
Good information and tempting to try. So I ran off to Google and there's a fair amount of info searching on 'jetting for E85' including this from a guy that will give you a clue, from here: https://thumpertalk.com/forums/topic/569254-e85/
Quote:
well as an update if anyone has been waiting for one. i decided to play safe and used my 84 honda atc200 for a 'guinee pig' instead. took lil less than a week of screwin around here in there. but its good now. stock jetting on 91 pump gas was an 88 main jet, 3rd clip on the needle and a 24 pilot. all a mikuni carb. well the local shop didnt have big enough mikuni jets so i made some with kehin jets that worked fine.(spare jets for my 250f). ended up with a 202ra main jet, 58 pilot jet and left the needle at the 3rd clip. turned the idle up some. just wrapped her up earlier tonight, runs perfect. once you get to the rev limiter in 5th gear (not any other gear) it runs a tad lean yet. but its a work horse not a play toy. its used in low gears, low rpms. i may try the needle in a richer spot, or try a 205 jet. otherwise im happy with the results.
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Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:56 pm quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
ethanol and 2T go very well together for power and heat management, milage will suffer and the fuel will take on water over time, so don't store it.

and if you tune for E85 you can't then run normal fuel, but yes it can work
Yeah I don't give a damn about fuel Mileage as I'm not using it daily or anything. But I have a question, heard after using E85 or methanol u should do a flush (as in idle it for alittle while) the engine with ethanol free or just normal gasoline with the same oil that's in the e85, what do u think of this?
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