Vintage vespa with sidecar
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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:57 pm quote
Gents - New to forum. Had a deep dive - learned a ton- super helpful. Thank you. Have determined what my life is missing is ... a vintage vespa with sidecar. Now in planning stages.

Some may question how anyone reading this forum could come to that conclusion - a fair point - however - this one's been boiling for 10+ years. Decided its time to act.

For those of you still reading past first 2 paragraphs - would greatly appreciate your expertise/insights. See below.

Use: this is a grocery getter/ pub and coffee shop commuter. Replacing my skateboard. will likely never see hwy - but if it does - it should be rock solid. drivability/durability/reliability/ vespa beauty/ are top goals. Live in So Cal. so year round driver.

Current Plan: Modified PX frame/chassis from these guys https://www.scooter-and-service.de/shop/ to give look I want - mixed with donor P200E or the like from home US market to give the reliability/ cost/value/ parts to assemble. (side car a whole other ball of wax).

I get that I can pay Scooter & Service $15K to ship me a street scorching retro looking super bike. This is not that project.

The goal - Think VBB looks with great torque - and even better breaks/ front suspension to handle side car stresses and provide me a fighting chance of survival as I learn. Everything you need - nothing you don't.

And that's the challenge. Put together a great bike, with enough from Scooters&Service, while using as much of a donor bike as I can - to achieve goals. But what donor and why?

Your view on:
- What donor bike/model/yrs would be ideal - and in your view why?
- Is there a US P model with hydraulic front disc that would fit the bill - or stock solution for disc that will fit a P fork/10" wheel ? Is it even needed?
- Is there a donor model that has a good front suspension for my needs?
- Clutch that will withstand low rev/ high torque?
- Electric start model that would allow me to both kick and push button?
- Is there a US model (uglier and cheaper the better) that has a certain set of specs or components in general that might marry well to the Scooters&Service chassis?
- Gearing options ? I've heard the P150x might be better geared - perhaps go with 150 and tune? thoughts?
- Some combo? P200e with certain aftermarket carb or exhaust? How would you set this bike up?
- Is there a P conversion that someones' written about that you think stands out/ has merit? (I may have missed - feel free to share).

you get the idea.

Welcome out of the box thinking/suggestions - and thanks for input in advance!


Editors notes:
- I am specifically choosing the P frame over VBB for its size, frame geometry, and front suspension - to help deal with side car - just not a fan of the P styling.
- Pics below of the PX modified tail and nose S&S does if interested/unfamiliar

Screen Shot 2019-02-04 at 9.29.54 PM.jpg

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Screen Shot 2019-02-04 at 9.30.27 PM.jpg

Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:41 am quote
1- have you ever ridden anything motorized with two wheels?

2- have you ever operated a sidecar?

3- why sidecar?

4- you're in CA, tagging and titling anything not already here or something wacky is gonna be a pain in all nine dicks.

5- for what you're thinking, unless you want a beater, 10~15K is about what you're gonna spend unless you're doing the majority of the heavy lifting.

6- where in SOCAL? it's a big area. if you're near the SFV i'd be happy to discuss the in's, out's & what have you's over a few brewdogs.

7- finally, budget. budget. budget. don't hold out. what's the max? i'd like to know if you're cupcake in the sky before the train leaves the station.

-g
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:53 am quote
G,
Thank you. Caused me to chuckle - at myself...
Questions 1-3, aka, do you know you can kill yourself - insightful.
My background:
Slew of minibikes & mopeds from 11 through teens.
Hand full of times on RD400 and large Kawasaki.
Built/tuned/raced vintage late 60ís/early 70ís Japanese sedans (Datsun 510) - teens.
Same with BMW sedans early 20ís.
Ridden a scooter twice - and one of those times I was on the back with tall Dutch Girl at the wheel.
So riding experience is slim.
Tech capability/ knowledge is solid.
Make living as an inventor.
Will likely find a partner for the build - but plan on thinking through the config options/developing my idea at minimum.
Havenít decided if I will do the engine build or use partner.
If beater donor is mech. solid, may wipe down and install engine for first season to get my sea legs before tear down.
Donor frame is older than 20yrs - understood with title and bill of sale its possible to register here. That one gives me pause/like to learn more.
Early 50ís now - and to answer the question - would prefer not to kill myself - and thank you.

Why sidecar - yes... because it looks cool. Also - place to carry stuff. compromise between 2&4 wheels. get that for trad. scooter rider - just seems like unwanted 3rd leg. suspect that with time - I will learn how to carve with it.

Budget:
- Chasis/frame 3000
- Donor bike 1200
- New parts/rubber/cables/seats/tires/rims/large horn 1000
- Paint 800
- Mechanical rebuild/upgrade parts 1000
- Side car 2500
- Build labor that I donít do - 2000
- Shit i didnít think of - 1000

This is truly an expensive grocery getter - I might start sneaking down to the beach occasionally as I get better command - but it will be Sunday morning and I will use SepulvedaÖ
Plan to keep and use for long run - so investment seams reasonable over decades. (I tell myself...)
Not above doing own build with donor/beater parts for first round if donor is mech. solid- but paint, cables and rubber would be new no matter if I am starting with a stripped chassis.
In SFV. Would welcome insights over beer. Iíll buy... just lemme know.
Fave local is Macleods.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 5777
Location: Downtown Toronto
Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:27 am quote


Looking forward to this thread and hope to see you take it to completion with lots of pics.

You should probably add another thousand at least to the slush fund. I think you may find this more expensive than you guessed and greasy knows his shit. You are for sure going in on the low end price wise on this. However if you do a lot of the work yourself you will save a bunch especially the engine work. If you want a beauty though a beater may cost you a lot in body work and paint.

I'm getting a sidecar rig myself which is why this caught my attention. I'm going the lazy route though and buying new and not a Vespa. I do know from a lot of research that riding a sidecar rig is a different world. You sound like you should be able to handle it easily enough though.

So good luck and a lot of us will be interested in the progress even if we don't add a lot to the actual build. I'll leave that to the pros and this is the place to ask.
Addicted
1974 Rally 200, 1974 Rally 200 with sidecar, 1966 Bluebadge, 2012 Stella 4T
Joined: 09 Apr 2009
Posts: 564
Location: Atlanta
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:17 pm quote
If you have facebook this is a lot of what you need.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/VintageScooterCommunityClassifieds/permalink/1622716211163503/?sale_post_id=1622716211163503
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1858

Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:44 pm quote
Iíd start out with looking for a low mile 2005 PX150 for the donor bike. Itís going to have a disc brake, EFL transmission, Cosa clutch, electric start, a wire harness that should still be in excellent shape, a stator system that will easily power the stock 55/60 watt headlight. The past three of those US market PX 150ís Iíve bought for $1800...and thatís with anywhere from 2500 to 4000 miles on them. Then buy some electric start 200 cases and a stock 200 cylinder (or better yet, a 208 Polini kit if you want more power and torque to pull a sidecar). Install all of the 150 internals into the 200 cases. Then go ahead and cut up the Ď05 PX body, and start fabbing it into something older looking.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:42 pm quote
Harbinger: "You should probably add another thousand at least to the slush fund..."

- Part of my process involves the art of underestimation - otherwise never dive in if I knew what it would really take. Much appreciated. Good luck with your own project! Matgyver - this link took me to a general page - looks like great spot to find stuff. Was it a specific ad or was that correct? Either way - Thanks! awesome.

Whodatschrome "Iíd start out with looking for a low mile 2005 PX150..."

- Great stuff. Just the sort of insights I can't get enough of. Love the angle. Tks!

Please keep em coming.
Molto Verboso
59 Vespa, 65 Vespa, 66 Vespa, 57 Vespa
Joined: 10 May 2011
Posts: 1322
Location: Portland Oregon
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:02 pm quote
My advice...
Buy a running used Stella with sidecar for around $3000.
Ride it around and get used to scooter with sidecar feel.
I had one for about 6 years.. put maybe 5000 miles on it.
Once you have a person in the sidecar, it's slow as fuck.
They take up a lot of room in the garage.
It sucks working on the motor with sidecar attached.
You will go through tires fast.
As soon as you hit a hill, S L O W G O I N G...

Once you do all this, if you still want one, sell the Stella for same price and do your build.

Good luck
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:16 pm quote
Hey Dr. That sounds like sound advice. In fact, there is one for sale just south of Portland for... $3,000...

Welcome to the forum Charlieman - this would definitely be worth the road trip!

https://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/mcy/d/portland-2005-genuine-stella-2t-sidecar/6810402057.html

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Ready to roll...

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Tue Feb 05, 2019 5:36 pm quote
Love the links - and good angle on running/driver to warm up my skills/ determine my joy factor. Thanks!
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:01 pm quote
i'm very much a proponent of the whole: ride it a year and see if you're in love with it, then blow it apart and restore it ideal.

so in as much i'm very much in agreement of the: buy a side hack, ride it and see if that's your jam as mentioned above.

in addition to qascooter pointing out that P2 as a possible starting point (which is awesome btw) and another mentioned a stella side car rig (which, yeah, sigh, i *know* butttt... good to cut teeth on) this might be a good starting point.

also just some food for thought:

https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/mcy/d/glendale-vespa-allstate-1964-with/6810235582.html

maybe there's some wiggle room there? it's been up awhile. but most importantly, it's got good bones. all the stuff you're looking for minus a disc set up. so negotiate down to the cost of a disc setup and live with the color. or ride it a year and do a complete overhaul, fix all the junk you don't like, throw the disc at it and change the color. wayyyyyyy less headaches.

or so the same thing with a stella or that P2 set-up.

just some food for thought.

-g
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:46 pm quote
Two things resonating/elevated by a few:

1. The "get some version and drive it a season" learn and see what you like.

2. Whodatschrome's build - he speced that pretty close to the machine I think I want - and cost engineered the solution a bit as well (nice!) - iced it with electric start cases (hey - its a scooter with a side car...).

Welcome any other details/options/fave sources on Whodatschrome's spec suggestion (kits/additions/years?) - if you know a relevant thread that you think stands out/liked - pls post it (also good for future searcher to see).

other potential for sale candidates that deliver on 1 or 2 above, and of course, any different angles on a cool build for my goals.

Input up til now very helpful/ much appreciated - thank you.

CM
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:03 pm quote
Gents - night to consider the input.
Decided to start the hunt for an 05 (or later?) PX150 (or 200?) for base bike - side car can be added. 2005 150PX or later was recommended for certain key specs (guts of engine put in a 200 elec start case when time comes to do rebuild) Quick search shows Elec start 200 cases available new $~1100. Will need piston/cylinder etc. as well.

Question: was the magic of a 150 motor over 200 in the gear ratios?
If yes - can I also attack the other way - find a 2005 PX or later and put 150 gears in for potentially less?

Greasy or other LA based - do you know any local shops that would be a good candidate for some custom body work/welding to eradicate the square tail of the PX?

Thanks.

CM
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:11 pm quote
yes. maybe. no. probably. yes. no way. kinda? no sir. possibly. i suppose. yeah. okay, no way. absolutely not. sure. i guess? if you want, yeah. nope. yep.

hope this answers all of your questions.

-g

j/k i'll post some more later but it's freekin' freezing in the shop so i gotta keep moving!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1581
Location: London UK
Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:37 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Question: was the magic of a 150 motor over 200 in the gear ratios?
If yes - can I also attack the other way - find a 2005 PX or later and put 150 gears in for potentially less?
One major point to note, P200 gearing can be dropped to near 150 ratios by changing one cog on the clutch, easily and for small $.

Another point, a 150 on a side car, with a passenger in would have comedy performance. Something like two up on a PK50.

P200, down geared and extra torque tuned Polini 207 is my suggestion.

Really like the concept. Hope you see it through
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'07 LX150 (Sold), '17 GTS300, '16 BV350, '15 EN650, '09 FXDF
Joined: 26 Jul 2017
Posts: 5287
Location: Home of the Alamo
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:11 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
Question: was the magic of a 150 motor over 200 in the gear ratios?
If yes - can I also attack the other way - find a 2005 PX or later and put 150 gears in for potentially less?
One major point to note, P200 gearing can be dropped to near 150 ratios by changing one cog on the clutch, easily and for small $.

Another point, a 150 on a side car, with a passenger in would have comedy performance. Something like two up on a PK50.

P200, down geared and extra torque tuned Polini 207 is my suggestion.

Really like the concept. Hope you see it through
Never driven or ridden in one, but have always been a sidecar fan. Looking forward to the progress of this thread. Good luck charlieman.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:44 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
One major point to note, P200 gearing can be dropped to near 150 ratios by changing one cog on the clutch, easily and for small $.

Another point, a 150 on a side car, with a passenger in would have comedy performance. Something like two up on a PK50.

P200, down geared and extra torque tuned Polini 207 is my suggestion.

Really like the concept. Hope you see it through
Thanks Jack - 150 w/side car comment caused a chuckle. PX200 info was just what I was looking for. Offers options on choices for base bike - could save some dosh and simplify if it delivers close to what ever the 150 gives stock for ratios.

Researching cog change on clutch to see what I can learn. (& assume you meant Polini 208 for kit?)

Jack 221 - makes 2 of us... Thanks!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1858

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:39 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Gents - night to consider the input.
Decided to start the hunt for an 05 (or later?) PX150 (or 200?) for base bike - side car can be added. 2005 150PX or later was recommended for certain key specs (guts of engine put in a 200 elec start case when time comes to do rebuild) Quick search shows Elec start 200 cases available new $~1100. Will need piston/cylinder etc. as well.

Question: was the magic of a 150 motor over 200 in the gear ratios?
If yes - can I also attack the other way - find a 2005 PX or later and put 150 gears in for potentially less?

Greasy or other LA based - do you know any local shops that would be a good candidate for some custom body work/welding to eradicate the square tail of the PX?

Thanks.

CM
2005 was the only year that the PX150 was imported here into the US. The PX200 was never imported here, but somehow a few (10 or 20 of them?)snuck in though Texas (American Scooter Center). If you do find one of them for sale in the states, they sell for LOTS (well, I don't know if they actually sell for lots, but the sellers sure are asking a lot!). It's WAY cheaper here to buy a used PX150, then add everything it takes to turn it into a PX200, than it is to buy a PX200. I'm going to guess here, but I'm betting that a factory built 2005 PX200 in the United States is more rare than any old GS, SS anything, TV, SX, DL, T5, ect...I'm not saying it's better by any means, just harder to find.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1858

Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:43 pm quote
Also, the EFL style transmission that's in the '05 PX150 will handle the power and torque of a cylinder kit (and or a side hack) better than the early P transmissions.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:17 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Also, the EFL style transmission that's in the '05 PX150 will handle the power and torque of a cylinder kit (and or a side hack) better than the early P transmissions.
Clear. Great insight. Tks.
Member
Stella 2t / '05 PX 150 / Honda Trail 110
Joined: 20 Jul 2016
Posts: 42
Location: Park City
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:29 pm quote
Start with a Stella, which can be found for pretty cheap. They come with electric start, front disk brake and can be easily upgraded and modified.

I have a 2007 Stella with a Cozy sidecar and its awesome. I bought it as a needy 'unit' that ran pretty well, but have upgraded almost the entire thing over the past couple of years for safety and usability.

Besides all the usual caution about hacks - they don't turn, they don't stop, they are clumsy, etc...the biggest issue I found is that the stock lighting is not safe for night riding. Most of the sidecars have no lighting at all and other drivers have a hard time making out what kind of vehicle you are at night and absolutely can't tell how wide you are. My hack is now running a full DC electric system with LED head and tail lights on both the scoot and the hack, as well as LED accent lights that are almost as ridiculous as the stereo system.

Jonathan Gick and I collectively put together a pretty aggressive engine build that he absolutely nailed. 177 kit, larger carb, Big Box exhaust, 20 tooth SIP clutch with his special clutch plates, Pinasco Variable timing ignition and the piece de resistance for this build: a 12-13-16-19 Input shaft that reduces the gearing to the point that all gears are effective and 4th gear is actually usable.

I'm 7,000' above sea level and this runs down a flat road with no wind at 50mph with 400# of rider and sidecar passenger. Even with a 15mph headwind and modest rise, I can get 40+ mph with me and my 70# dog in the sidecar (my typical ride).

I added lots of other fun things to this build, SIP speedo, tubeless wheels (great safety feature), switches for the accent lights, bluetooth stereo, new seats and hack carpet, and other stuff I can't remember. Its a head-turner for sure and a ton of fun to ride.

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Addicted
85 Vepsa PX150E with sidecar, 80 P200 with sidecar, 96 Goldwing with Hannigan Sidecar, LR87aj5, LR91aj3
Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 551
Location: Central Washington State
Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:58 pm quote
I'm a sucker for sidecars... I've crossed the U.S. three times with sidecar equipped Vespa's. One of which was a p150 with electric start and cozy sidecar.

https://issuu.com/genext/docs/good_life_august_2012?mode=embed&layout=http%3A%2F%2Fskin.issuu.com%2Fv%2Flight%2Flayout.xml&showFlipBtn=true

The last cross country Vespa trip was on a p200.

So for what it worth 150cc around town, but for long distance 200cc.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:28 pm quote
Aerochip - first, let me say, awesome! Thanks! ( though you may wanna cut back on the evening coffee...)

Love the gearing - and solution with (Polini ?) 177 kit and gearing. Checks the box on torque with electric start - without having to buy new 200 elec start engine cases. I've wondered about option of using 177 tuning kit rather than full replace with larger CC & kit. This thing is not headed to the hwy so the numbers provided are helpful.

Lighting point an excellent one - "My hack is now running a full DC electric system with LED head and tail lights on both the scoot and the hack" - can you give some details on that?

Also - where did you pic up the "12-13-16-19 Input shaft" for this? Anything else on executing that one worth sharing?

Your Stella has the hydraulic front disc - is breaking horrible or just bad?

Your 07 Stella's lines work great with the cozy.
My goal is to create a bodge version of a PX (or stella) that gives a bit more classic VBB styling, I am busy researching options on forks/dimensions/ ride height/wheel size/ without ending up with a chopper and waist high mudguard. There are a whole set of trade-offs that I will post on after I determine my solution and let everyone kick the tires on before I execute.

Thanks!

Screen Shot 2019-02-02 at 11.35.08 PM.jpg

Member
Stella 2t / '05 PX 150 / Honda Trail 110
Joined: 20 Jul 2016
Posts: 42
Location: Park City
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:35 am quote
Lighting: Basically, with additional lighting and other electrical needs/desires, I had to reduce the overall lighting draw and that is best done with LED's with the added bonus of increased brightness. All of these old scoots run an AC headlight circuit and LED's don't like AC power. You can put individual rectifiers on LED lights in order to run off of AC power (like they do in your home), but the best way is to "Float the Stator" as described best by Keaton85, Ginch, Chandlerman, Whodatschrome, and others in these and other threads:
SIP Electronic Ignition Install + DC Conversion
LED Sealed Beam Headlight Install
My thread on floating the stator on the Pinasco, which is a little different than the stock Stella/PX setup: Pinasco Flytech Floated Ground

This is the input shaft we used: https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/input+shaft+assembly+121316_25270812

Brakes on a hack are interesting. There is no brake on the actual sidecar, so when you hit the brakes with any kind of speed, it pulls hard left because the momentum from the sidecar is still carrying forward. Likewise, when you accelerate hard, it pulls to the right because the power is on the left. I find the Stella brakes adequate, but also rarely ride in the rain and most of my riding is max 40mph with light traffic on familiar roads. I do pay special attention to the condition of the brakes and lubricate the bushings in the sidecar wheels with high quality synthetic grease at least once a year. Tubeless tires also lend to the overall safety of the rig.

I loose about 20-25% hp due to my altitude, so a 177 kit with anything close to what I've done would be plenty for you at sea level in CA. The gearing would help for hills and such, and 50mph is plenty fast for a hack (its really happy at 40 - 45).

I enjoy tinkering around with my scoots, but also know the limitations of my expertise and patience. I decided to leave the engine build to the experts and, after a disastrous experience with a local shop, found Jonahtan Gick (Gickspeed) to do the engine build. I still fiddle with tuning and such, but I couldn't be happier with Jonahaan's work and the brilliant engine build on this project.

Good luck and hope to see yours on the road soon!
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Location: california
Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:38 am quote
aerochip - thanks to both you and Rob98801 for view points on gearing/engine size. Gives me much better sense for lay of the land options. My target for use is supreme grocery getter - with the ability to climb a hill and or hit 50 on rare occasions - but capable. Kitted 150 is probably sufficient - though 200 would be great also = more choices for donor/tune. Gearing on Aerochip's is particularly intriguing for drivability in my case - thanks for sharing.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1858

Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:40 am quote
Though both the Stella and PX150 are fairly similar, the PX will have a much higher build quality. The Stellas pretty much always sell for less than the PX. With the PX, you also pay for the Vespa name, but I think itís well worth it. If I had a choice between a $1200 Stella and a $1800 PX, I would chose PX every time. I have bought a couple $700 Stellaís that weíre in good shape before. I wasnít too thrilled with some of their build quality. Donít get me wrong, I still think the Stella is a great scooter...once you sort out their craptastic wire harness and their 2500 mile self destructing crankshaft.
With those $700 Stellaís that I bought, I resold them for the same price to friends so they had something to ride.
Member
Stella 2t / '05 PX 150 / Honda Trail 110
Joined: 20 Jul 2016
Posts: 42
Location: Park City
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:13 pm quote
I agree that the Vespa is a much nicer feeling product than the Stella. I also have a couple of 2005 PX150's, one semi-built and one stock (except for catalyst exhaust delete) and they are a joy to ride. However, the Stella makes a great base for a hack because you are going to cut it up and modify the hell out of it.

Consider that just about everything on my hack has been changed....
Upholstery: Custom (stock is terrible)
Suspension: SIP (forget which one but good for the added weight)
Wheels: SIP tubeless all around
Engine: Built as above including crank replacement, basically just kept the Stella cases and Gickspeed even had to make some repairs on those.
Electrical: Fully custom to include DC conversion and ignition. Larger battery.
Lighting: Full LED
Additions: Koso Heated Grips, Bluetooth stereo

For example, wiring: I removed lots of redundant wiring, ran heavier gauge where needed and basically fabricated a bunch of wire bundles for things like the Trail Tech Regulator, extra lights, switches and SIP speedo (great because it has a rev counter and temp gauge).

I had no 'plan' when I started this project and it snowballed into what it is today. If SIP ever comes out with a flywheel with teeth for the electric starter, I may put their ignition system on it to provide more charging power at lower RPM, but until then, I've put in a slightly larger battery and just put it on the battery tender when it needs it.

Look forward to your updates.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7123
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:17 pm quote
Almost everyone who has bought a sidecar finds their way here and asks how to make it faster. Number 1 way is ditch the sidecar. But I guess you have experience your own folly rather than get it second-hand.

If you are stripping either a PX150 or Stella down to the frame, I'd start with a non-running Stella because it's cheaper. Then put the savings into a 200 motor if you can find one. You're going to want a 200 motor at the absolute least to avoid some degree of builder's remorse (see above).
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Posts: 736
Location: california
Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:02 pm quote
Whodatschrome - "If I had a choice between a $1200 Stella and a $1800 PX, I would chose PX every time. "

Im on the same page - part of this comes down to finding the right machine. With right mix of stuff that I can carry forward. The 2005 PX's I've found so far are north of $3100 - but I have just started the hunt - and am still working out the fork/fender/ride height plan.

Aerochip - that's the page I'm on - right donor could sway me - though I have to admit first choice is a PX and I will hunt for a bit/keep eye out. The way you are using your bike mirrors how I intend to use mine - ultimate grocery getter - and the gearing set up you went with is on the list - thanks.

Ginch - thanks for the input - your fork project was a great primer for some of the trade-offs/challenges with fender height I noted above - Anyone following along who is interested: Fork Swap for 150 Super Its got a set of measures listed for a range of forks

Question - Now that you have had yours for some time - and seen others tackle it over time - any opinion on best fork option that would fit PX/Stella chassis, allow VBB fender, sitting snug over the wheel and tight to the body as possible?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7123
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:19 pm quote
If you want a disc-capable fork in your VBB, and a guard that looks stock, you could go for a GS160 front guard which I believe is bigger but looks right. A 20mm P/PX fork will need some shaping at the shock mount as well as cutting down.
A PK conversion fork from SIP or SCK has the cutting down done already but because there is more space between the bottom fork stem bearing and shock mount may be easier to fit the guard. Possibly even using an original VBB but have no experience (just seen pictures of smallframes with that guard fitted to that fork).
The VBB type headset will fit the diameter of the P top tube, but the clamp bolt goes through at a different angle... should be relatively straightforward to cut a new slot for that. PX on the left, VBB on the right.



A P/PX fork will be cheaper to source but the PK will be easier to fit. The bottom ends are the same and take the same brakes.
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:02 am quote
Ginch - you are at the heart of the matter on mud guard fit and headset - appreciate the experience sharing.

Got most of it:
- GS front fender (replica or after market guys, replica or after market - I promise), will have a bit more width and look like VBB - tho VBB may fly.
- Shock tower top on P/PX may need a little grinding to allow front fender to sit low and snug on top of shock tower/ S turn area of fork.
- cut new slot if P fork - clear.

can you clarify:
1. "A PK conversion fork...there is more space between the bottom fork stem bearing and shock mount may be easier to fit the guard"
2. "there is more space between the bottom fork stem bearing and shock mount may be easier to fit the guard" will it fit P,PX, and PK top tube or only P?

Thanks!
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:59 am quote
my biggest question is what are you going to do about the mishmosh of parts?

P/stella frame, VBB/GS fender, PK fork, question mark headset. none of that lines up, none of that looks good together.

i mean, i don't know are you going to buy that S&S frame or try and reverse engineer it or something?

i get it, the old shit looks cool. but the old shit looks cool because all of the proportions are right. hackin' and scrapin' all this together you're just gonna wind up with something that looks like a lump on a sore dick.

unless you spend beaucoup bucks at the fab shop/body man.

but then, what if you just circumvent that and buy the roller from S&S? good luck on getting it reg'd in cali.

you're in a predicament of damned if you do, spending a lot of money of a fools errand if you don't.

however, don't get me wrong. you think you know exactly what you want. and you think that it's all gonna work out. but trust me... the road here is rocky and your feets are gonna be bruised and your wallet is gonna be empty.

the best advice i can give you is to buy a p or stella that's already outfitted and ride it and see if it's for you. cut your teeth on it for a bit and see how the cow eats the cabbage. who knows, maybe you fall in love with it. maybe you hate it and sell off the side hack and keep the scoot. maybe you sell the whole dammn thing cuz you hate working on it, riding it, parking it, whatever.

but, then, at least you'll know if it's for you before dropping 15 large on something that in your minds eye was perfect and now you loathe the thought of.

and seriously if you want old skool cool but not dogshit slow just get a rally, super or sprint and then outfit it accordingly. easiest way for that classic look but in an easier to manage package.

-g
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
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Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:09 am quote
Quote:
any opinion on best fork option that would fit PX/Stella chassis, allow VBB fender, sitting snug over the wheel and tight to the body as possible?
the stock PX or stella with a disc (OE or aftermarket on the PX) and then you'll need to massage whatever fender and the shock mount to fit it up.

the PX/stella brakes and suspension are both flexible to upgrades-- i'd probably go with a nice adjustable shock, maybe some upgraded pads and possibly a zooty disc. but really, in good nick the stock stuff will be just fine for what you're doing.

if you want you can go full nuts with calipers, master cyls, discs, pads. but really you're not going over 50 so it's not gonna be a big deal.

-g
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:01 am quote
Quote:
[quote="greasy125"]my biggest question is what are you going to do about the mishmosh of parts?

P/stella frame, VBB/GS fender, PK fork, question mark headset. none of that lines up, none of that looks good together.

i mean, i don't know are you going to buy that S&S frame or try and reverse engineer it or something?
Greasy:
Appreciate your efforts to warn me off pouring money down drain on expensive butt-ugly frankenbike that is miserable to ride.
Am sure your experience says chances are not smallÖ and you are trying to help a brother not be a total idiot on this one.
Which is why I am still taking aim. Steep learning curve starting at 0 with advanced target as goal.
Feedback on this forum priceless - wouldn't attempt without.
Nothing set in stone.
VBB/Sprint base still possible but PX initial focus.

Why PX.
- Plentiful -I donít want to trash a beautiful retro bike
- Good initial specs (on some). Hydraulic brakes/cases with elec start/ oil injection (undecided on merits)/ efl transmission/ heavier duty clutch/solid electrical - all have my attention.
- Relatively cheap for solid model - theoretically anyway.
- Stiffened frame/frame size - my understanding, early ones bent, they increased tunnel height through center where I most need to transfer load from sidecar.
- And S&Sís execution on conversion - to my eye - they have managed to build some damn good looking bikes out of PXs - at least in photo.

Cost of rolling S&S chassis/ import/ trying to get titled - make it a model rather than a solution (thanks for input on that one).
Have to be in Germany for work in a few weeks - so planning a little visit to their shop.
Will get first hand look at the bikes, talk to the guys, sort out what I would have to do to execute on my own, and what parts/support they could supply me.
Suspect I will learn a lot on that visit - will post back here so everyone can come for the ride.
Forum discussion improves my understanding rather than walking in cold.
Get more value out of the trip - with more detailed questions and understanding upfront - I hope...

On the "ride it to see if you even like it front" - I figure I can always disconnect the side car and put it on Craigslist. I'm not that freaked about that one.
Those of us that have sidecar on the brain - it is just what it is... Everyone else just has to put up with us - it's like goalies - they're weird - but every team needs one.
(of course - If I find the right ride-it package along the way - I wouldnít hesitate).

one (two?) sources I would love some input on:
- Local place for tail mod/frame welding?
- Local place for paint?

Any thoughts on that one for SFV area? Thanks for all!
Ossessionato
1979 P200e
Joined: 18 Mar 2013
Posts: 2484
Location: Lock Haven, PA
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:52 am quote
I'm not gonna comment on the sidecar because I don't know Jack Squat about it and I think others here have already covered it's unique issues. And that why, boys and girls, we often find people selling a sidecar that's been sitting in their garage or barn for the past 15 years unused, and unattached to a motorcycle or scooter.

As for making it "old school" I believe there are some kits for the P/PX (and Stella) that come close to mimicking the general feel while maintaining the P/PX intact (mostly). Purists here would ridicule you for being a vintage wannabe, but most people out there won't care or be able to tell the difference.

It's gotta be easier to get a bolt on kit than to frankenstein up a bunch of parts that were never meant to go together.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/EN/Products/90719100/Frame+Kit+GS160+Style+for.aspx?_country=E993AB67-6807-4109-BBED-F6374EBF9F9B&gpc_origin=&gpc_feed_alias=us&gpc_pid=90719100&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0f-ZorS-4AIV11mGCh218Q7XEAQYBSABEgJitPD_BwE
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Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 736
Location: california
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:38 pm quote
Larrytsg

This rig is certainly never going to be a purist pleaser - agreed.

The guys have none the less been great about suggestions and pitfalls - even though it may not be their cup of suds...

Nice find on the kit btw - new data point(s) for me & this thread. Awesome.

Body parts seem like I have some choices that will solve for a curvier vintage product. Fork will be critical to achieving a look that I am satisfied with - mudguard to wheel/ mudguard to leg shield. Tail work still TBD - hoping to find options locally for some cut and weld there.

Holding option open for more vintage frame as starting point but as noted - some benefits of PX donor for this particular project.

Thanks for input!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7559
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 pm quote
greasy125 wrote:
yes. maybe. no. probably. yes. no way. kinda? no sir. possibly. i suppose. yeah. okay, no way. absolutely not. sure. i guess? if you want, yeah. nope. yep.

hope this answers all of your questions.

-g

j/k i'll post some more later but it's freekin' freezing in the shop so i gotta keep moving!
I was going to tease and ask if it was in the low 70's or high 60's. But see it is 58į which is pretty cold for SOCa.
Keep moving
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:26 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
yes. maybe. no. probably. yes. no way. kinda? no sir. possibly. i suppose. yeah. okay, no way. absolutely not. sure. i guess? if you want, yeah. nope. yep.

hope this answers all of your questions.

-g

j/k i'll post some more later but it's freekin' freezing in the shop so i gotta keep moving!
I was going to tease and ask if it was in the low 70's or high 60's. But see it is 58į which is pretty cold for SOCa.
Keep moving
actually it's been low 60's high 50's days and low 40's high 30's with intermittent rain the last two weeks. so, that's legit cold around these parts. i'm stoked because my stone fruit is getting the chill time, but concerned about my citrus (thankfully i haven't had any legit frost over). however the wild swings in temp and the rain is screwing with my winter garden and my early planting. but at least i'm not up to my ass in snow, so i've got that going for me!

all kidding aside, working in the cold sucks. outdoor work isn't that bad but the indoor sitting around and touching cold ass tools and lifts and not moving around is no fun at all!

-g
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7559
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:43 am quote
greasy125 wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
greasy125 wrote:
yes. maybe. no. probably. yes. no way. kinda? no sir. possibly. i suppose. yeah. okay, no way. absolutely not. sure. i guess? if you want, yeah. nope. yep.

hope this answers all of your questions.

-g

j/k i'll post some more later but it's freekin' freezing in the shop so i gotta keep moving!
I was going to tease and ask if it was in the low 70's or high 60's. But see it is 58į which is pretty cold for SOCa.
Keep moving
actually it's been low 60's high 50's days and low 40's high 30's with intermittent rain the last two weeks. so, that's legit cold around these parts. i'm stoked because my stone fruit is getting the chill time, but concerned about my citrus (thankfully i haven't had any legit frost over). however the wild swings in temp and the rain is screwing with my winter garden and my early planting. but at least i'm not up to my ass in snow, so i've got that going for me!

all kidding aside, working in the cold sucks. outdoor work isn't that bad but the indoor sitting around and touching cold ass tools and lifts and not moving around is no fun at all!

-g
And I am guessing you don't even have a heater in the shop that you can turn on to warm the place up

I can send you my old Torpedo Kerosene Heater if you like, I upgraded. Stinky but it works.
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7300
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:16 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
And I am guessing you don't even have a heater in the shop that you can turn on to warm the place up

I can send you my old Torpedo Kerosene Heater if you like, I upgraded. Stinky but it works.
i have a crappy dual head propane one, but it's only effective if you're within about a 10 foot radius!

hopefully it'll warm up AND stop raining this week so i can actually get some stuff done!

-g
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