Modern Vespa

Thanks Jack - I'm having fun with it, and taking my time. If I can keep doing that, all is golden. Do you mean open the hole by 10mm or just fan out the inside 10mm? I'm assuming the hole. I'll probably chicken out and only do a few mm.. I'll check it out, thanks! I'm going to give it a go. It seems OK, but what do I know. Like you said, we'll find out soon enough! I wish I knew what this looked like. Like a Before and After. Or maybe a paper "Original" and the Paper "After". I'll search for a thread, but I haven't had any success in this earlier. Thank you for this though. It tells me this is the way to go. OK, cool - I just didn't know so I figured better to be safe than sorry. I've seen some pictures of some messed up rotary pads - like a bearing exploded or something went down the carb throat like a screw. Yeah, the overhead had to have been from someone putting the wrong kind of oil in the oil tank. It was almost blocked solid. Even after I drained the oil I couldn't blow air through the filler. Rinsing it with gas did the trick!

Thanks again for your insight - I sure appreciate it!

Yeah.....If you are going to do this you need to be careful, obviously. Its a sensitive area. The original is too short so no need to ever go back but not messing it up is the priority.
I meant fan out the back on the inside at the rotary pad. Similar to how the front is. 10mm from where the inlet hole is now and blended back into the inlet
For some idea (remember you're stock, so, only 10mm at the back), here's a video from our favorite Austrian. Measure where yours is from the factory and go from there. To be original it should be 38.8mm. I have moved these 1/4 inch in the past so plenty of metal there. the after should look just the same as before but 38.8mm or less from deck.

Thanks for the vid Jack. I've seen it before but understand it a little more now. So I went for it. I measured a line 9 mm out and ground away. I also shaped the airbox to fit the engine opening. It was way off. It's not perfect, but should do the trick.

I didn't even look at the cylinder yet.

Oh, and I was going to rebuild the cush drive, but I shook the crap out of it and the springs are solid, so I'm just replacing the bearings on both ends and calling it good.


Let the grinding begin!

OK, got on the edge of the line. The far edge is 9mm.

Put the carb box on and it's way off!

Drew a line on where to grind.

The fit is getting better.

The final carb box hole size. I forgot to take a pic of it on the case.

These are the bits I used. I went through a couple of sanding discs.

I didn't think you would go for it. That's some nice work for a first try. Takes your inlet from somewhere near 165 degrees to more like 175 degrees. A scooter heavily tuned might be 220 degrees and a decent tourer is about 180. This will need a slight upjet, if you don't have already put a 120 to 130 set of main jets on your shopping list.

The carb box was about as bad as they get. Now nice and smooth. Some guys open out the bottom lip of the carb too (you'll see that doesn't line up either). If you do it, only go a few mm in and watch out for the mixture screw hole.

How did the cylinder measure up?

Thanks Jack - It's nice this is the project scooter and not the one I ride daily. If it was, I might not have been as ballsy with the dremel. And I'm learning on this one, so when it's time for my daily ride, I'll have an idea of what I'm doing.

OK, now I understand the degrees a bit more. Thank you for that.

The carb that came with this P200 is a 20/20 and I'm going to use it and upjet from what I set up Luckybears - like a SS180 but with a bigger main and go from there. I forget the exact jetting but I've got it written down in a notebook in the garage. And I just looked at the carb and how it lines up with the carb box and it's off on the carb side, so I'll whittle a little down on the carb to match. Thanks for the heads up on a couple of mm's only.

And I just measured the cylinder and exhaust from the deck - 38.5. This is what I want, correct?

Thanks again for your help!


Should I do anything with this?

That bore came out nice too. Cleaned up well.

38.5mm is a good factory one. Seen some over 39mm which are noticeably slower.

No need to cut anything.......however, if it were mine I wouldn't be able to put it back together like that. If you're feeling bold, take it down to 38.00mm. Will be hardly any different, as the transfers are too low but will be making a little more power. Could be worth 1mph
If your 57mm crank does turn out to be no good and knocking be sure to buy a 60mm stroke to replace it. Then with the higher main transfer duration from that and +1mm out of the exhaust port it will still be about right. With the 60 the exhaust has to go up but on the 57 its an option.

No issue with the 20/20 carb. Whatever jets you are planning to put in the main air corrector should be a 140 and atomiser BE5. Timing can stay at 23 degrees (A).

Even after all this its going to be hardly any different but even with the smaller carb it will feel better and crawl past the red one every time.

Thanks Jack! This is the info I was looking for. 38.03 is what it is now! That's awesome news and good to know info on the 20/20 carb. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

I put in a new shifting cross (with locktite) and inspected the gears. Installed the bearings, Cush drive, kickstarter. Gotta take the wheel off the hub to draw the gear stack into place. Once I put the crankshaft in it'll be almost time to put the cases together! Woohooo!


Gear stack disassembled.

38.03. That is the distance from the top of the cylinder too the top of the exhaust port.

It's getting there...

Looking good my friend!

Thanks Luckybear! Today I got a chance to do a little more.

I got all the internals in and put together the case halves! Of course I needed to clean up the hub before I could suck in the rear axle and gear cluster. Then I put in the seal.

Also relieved the piston port edges, installed piston, filed one set of rings to get .3mm clearance, installed cylinder, head, and torqued it down.

I'm starting to see a glimmer of light at the end of the parts tunnel.


Two halves ready to go together, spring? - check. kick start gear? - check. - OK, triple checked everything to hopefully not forget anything.

Case nuts and bolts almost ready - gotta clean them up with a wire wheel on the drill.

Case halves together - a little jiggling and it clicked together nicely. I learned many years ago that a little shaking or vibration helps things fall together - or apart....

Cylinder, piston, and head installed. The rings were time consuming to get them into the cylinder.

When measuring like this, using the depth gauge, it's most accurate when something flat (like a feeler gauge) is put inside the port and measure down to it. With ports the chamfer doesn't count.

You're not hanging about. Be sure to do a crankcase pressure test. Especially as this is your first go. Was going to suggest you check the piston distance from deck and adjust the base gaskets to set it correctly. This is another point where power can be lost.

When I say the 20/20 is ok, is that it's ok. A 24/24 would go better if you can get one (for free is best). I have 2 lube ones on my shelf doing nothing but the postage would be more than they're worth. The 20/20 jetting is especially important as it is running at its limit and will lean out easily.

I stuck a big flat bladed screwdriver and measured to it! I've been doing this 15 minutes here, 20 minutes there. I can only imagine if I had several hours in a row how much I could get done. Yes - Pressure Test! I don't have a carb manifold to put an inner tube on - gonna have to rig something up. And I knew I was getting ahead of myself with the piston. Should've done the brakeplate and brakes first. I was just excited to actually fit the new piston. What distance should I be looking for because it's only 4 nuts, and it's on the bench! Wow - Thank you for the offer! I'll PM you about it. And thanks again for your help!

Your Dremel work inspired me to finally chamfer the ports on my new cylinder. Unfortunately, my vice was too small so I had to ad lib.

You crack me up Luckybear!

Today I made some more progress. Put on the brakes and hub. New seals, lubed the brake arm, sanded the drum, cleaned the threads of the cable adjustment.

And finally got the clutch built and installed, and replaced o-rings in clutch arm.

Also reassembled the autolube in the carb box and installed it, with some locktite. Currently getting ready to pressure test. Gonna do what Chandlerman suggested and just block off the carb and get air in the exhaust.


It's getting there!

Gotta love this old school torque wrench. Ive got a click one but don't trust it for some reason. Maybe someday I'll get a digital beep one...

Autolube has been cleaned out and is good to go.

So this whole leakdown test has been a bit of an issue. I'm getting 2 min and 15 secs from 200 to 150 mm/Hg (1 psi).

This after tightening the carb. The rubber gasket was leaking. And tightening the tube to exhaust flange connection. Bubbling there also. I used glass cleaner and could hear the leaks - very faint bubbling.

The final leak is coming from the exhaust manifold where it screws into the exhaust - bubbling out of the threads.

Should I call it good and move on? If not, what should I do with the threads of this pipe - plumbers putty? Grease?


The gauge I'm using.

The test apparatus...

Hi Qa, first thanks for posting this rebuild. I have a P2 engine on my bench i did awhile ago as a spare, and i think i may go again to give a few tweaks following what youve done. Great pictures and info.

With the exhaust stub, maybe unscrew it and put it back with hylomar or similar in the thread?

Thanks Jan - appreciate the kind words.

I decided to use some high temp axle grease on the threads of the exhaust and call it good. It's loses 1 lb psi every 2 minutes and 45 seconds. I think that's coming from the carb seal. I'll rig something up better next time but for now, I'm calling it good.

Installed the Stator, Flywheel, and rigging up a way to start the engine outside of the scooter. Since I haven't installed the tank yet, I think I'm going to use it to feed the carb the gas and oil it needs. I'm getting closer...


Just for fun - the neutral switch. It works!

Stator is in. Forgot to take a pic of the flywheel. Oh, each flywheel magnet can hold a 19mm wrench so all is good!

The test rig to hold the tank off the end of the bench.

The inside of the tank. Not bad...

I started the engine today! It runs - YES!

I went to get the 140 main corrector jet - nope, it was a 120.
Then I grabbed the BE5 and - nope, it was a BE4.
Dangit! Then I went to grab a barrel adjuster and nope - I've got extra wire pincher bolts, but no barrel adjuster.

Screw it, use the 160/BE3/118 stack and the 55/160 pilot/idol jet and go for it. It started on the third kick, and tried on the 2nd. The first start was a warm up, then I restarted and took this vid.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TkSuB5zS4S4JN_WO8IK18QGPWwBygvEe/view?usp=sharing

I did a dance and hollered into the rain after I got it running! Yea baby, Yeah! First rebuild and it started pretty cleanly.

Now to get the tank into the body, and engine back in the scooter. I'm also going to probably change carbs to a 24/24 while I'm at it. It would be a shame to not get whatever I can get out of it after doing the porting work. (thanks again Jack!).

120 BE4 is good if you don't have a 140. The 160 in a 20/20 will be too lean. A stronger pilot jet is probably a good idea too. Like a 50/120.

Well done with the re-build. A nice feeling when they work again. how long before the test ride?

Hope you don't mind I stole one of your pics to illustrate a post I made regarding neutral switches on P series : How does the neutral switch work on Ps?

Right on Frank - Nice writeup. And any pics I post up here are free game - hopefully they can help somebody.

Qas (and Jack) - that was an impressive tutorial.
Had a question on the porting but held as didn't want to get in the way of the steps.


Looks like bike sat for a while - piston port left a witness line (arrow) that was outside of the edge of the cylinder port.

Is that what was up there? If yes, what would be the normal prescription for this condition - would you port the cylinder wall out to meet - or giant chamfer? Thanks.

PS - was very cool to hear it fire up. Awesome.

Thanks Charlie,

Jack gave me some excellent advice for which I'm very much appreciative. I'm just doing what I can do to get this baby back on the road. I'm having fun!

As far as your question, can you rephrase because I have no idea what you're talking about.



Thanks again!

Chuckle. Right. Customary to post picture when referencing...

Was asking about how to deal with porting when the piston port does not align horizontally with cylinder port (which I think was the condition before you did the build - but was not certain),

See pic...

Oh, gotcha. The cylinder sat for a week after I pressure washed it. I won't do that again. I essentially used one of those three legged stone jobbers to clean up the inside of the cylinder, with WD-40 as the lubricant. I didn't get a good after pic.

I'm not sure how that mark got there. The old piston was shot and a new one went in in its place. I didn't verify piston to cylinder ports. I just put it together. I'm getting antsy to get this scooter on the road...

Got it.
I was kinda blown away by the precision of the porting - measured from deck to port - to figure out exactly where the top of the port should be.

But that mark on the wall I was showing - before you honed - looks like what ever piston was in the cylinder when it was sitting after wash - didn't align left right (not by much mind you). I was just curious if its best practices to leave that or to grind horizontally in some fashion to try and match.

Jack 221 - any thoughts on that one?

Am sure it will pull great once you get it back in the bike - based on the upgrades and porting work done. Wasn't nit picking - but rather trying to learn in case I find similar in future on any build.

Project and work are super cool. Learned a ton. Thanks for taking the extra time when doing the work to record and leave crumb trail to follow.

CM

Thanks again Charlie. I'm a bit disappointed in myself for not taking more pictures. There are a few thing I still need to do. And there are plenty of pics out there showing how to remove and install an engine, so I focused on the task and not the pics.

Its like Larry said: I'm still on step 1! It'll get there....

I've been busy with other stuff but got a few things done.

Got the engine reinstalled.
Shock hooked up.
Fuel tank in with new tap and hoses.
Fuel line and oil line hooked up.
Carb put back together with better jetting (thanks Jack)
Started the engine in the scooter and ran it for a few minutes

When I hooked up the oil line I realized the Autolube system was full of air because the oil line would get air bubbles in it. So while the bike was not running I worked the autolube mechanism a bunch and more came out of the metal tube. I did this a bunch until no more air came out, so I now how to bleed the autolube system, if you will. Or at least I hope that's what was going on. Had to be...

Next is to clean the shifter and throttle tube. They are both stiff so I'm going to take off the headset and take a look and clean things up. If need be, I'll replace cables.


Engine is in!

Tank is in

All rubber and faceplate for fuel tap lever is in

Carb almost all put back together.

Wiring connected and put back together. Kill switch works.

QAS - Scooter West did a vid where they talked a little about this after their rebuild on a P200 and show how they bleed and test to ensure its feeding. Link here should start at 18:30 (where they show their method if helpful).

Also: thought it was interesting - they run a little oil mix with gas on first break in. Would be tempted to do same if I had just sweated out a rebuild and wasn't certain of oil feed. Talk about it just after the 23:52 mark.

Other's may hold different opinion - but thought this might be useful.

Thanks Charlie. Great information. Yes, I did this method, including adding a splash of oil to the tank.
What I wasn't expecting was for more bubbles to show up in the oil line, coming out of the autolube. Makes sense considering there is not oil in the autolube yet. That's why I worked the lever to get as much air out of the autolube as I could, and work the oil into the mechanism. Similar to bleeding brakes.

I want to get the cables hooked up, tire installed, Hub torqued down, shifter and throttle tubes cleaned up, and take it up the street! Getting close now!

I haven't done much, but did manag to get the tire installed, clutch cable hooked up, shifter cables installed, and adjusted the throttle cable play.

I also cleaned and greased the throttle and shifter tubes. They were super stiff and now twist easily and smoothly. While I had the headset lifted, I also dribbled 3-n-1 oil down all the cable housings.

Replacing the rear brake cable and cleaning up the brake mechanism is next.


All gummed up

Thats better

Shifter tube barely turns

Now its turning smoothly

It's worlds of difference when both those tubes can spin freely. There's nothing like a well lubed throttle tube that can snap back when you let go of the throttle!

So true whodat! I like it when things run smoothly.

I took the first official ride on it around the house and street a few days ago! Yes! Lucky bear was here as a witness. I want to dd a few minor tweaks, then get it out on the road.

The scooter has no title so I sent off the paperwork for a Vermont plate and registration today. I called the Oregon DMV twice to get see if I could get it registered to no avail. At least it's not in the system, so that's good.

A huge thank you to MJRally for putting together how to do this. How to Guide- Apply for a Vermont plate I requested registration as an antique so maybe it'll be a cool plate.

I'll update here as the process evolves.

Last edited by qascooter on Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Kick ass project - door to door.
Great input from Jack combined with no-catch-net trapeze act by Qascooter holding a grinder.
When you get the title - or before - post a vid so we can hear it!
Looked like fun - learned a ton!

Thanks Charlieman. I rode it a couple of miles today. I'll post a video as soon as I take another.

I did replace the rear brake cable. Removed the brake assembly and cleaned it up. Put dielectric grease on the rear brake light connectors and greased up the pivot pin that holds the rear brake as well as greasing up the brake mechanism itself.

I took a bunch of pics. But these two are my favorite.


Dirty, just coming out.

Clean, going back in.

So I got the scooter out on the road! I've run it through a few warm up and cool down cycles. All is good so far. My friend Lucky Bear came to visit and took this video of the momentous occasion. He also helped me troubleshoot why it wasn't starting. Turns out it was the spark plug. Go figure.

So here is the video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ciw2vxFr9QpirxwQ8

The glovebox was tweaked and letting in water at the top of the seal on the left side. The legtrim on the left was bent a bit also, and someone cut off the leg trim.

I straightened the leg trim and got rid of any rust. I decided to sand it down with some fine sandpaper, then use rubbing compound on everything, and a silicone based wax. That should protect it enough, as long as it's kept up.

While the glovebox was off, I cleaned up the rust and made the call to prime the inside bottom of the glovebox and a few other spots that had water damage. I just didn't want any further damage, but didn't want to cover up the original paint, as much as possible. Same treatment with rubbing compound and silicone based wax.

I also bought some new nuts and bolts, and soaked the old nuts and bolts in Vinegar for a couple of days, then wire brushed them out. They cleaned up quite nice.

All the rubber and plastic for the glovebox and blinkers was soaked in 303 protectant for a few days. And when I reinstalled the blinkers I wire brushed the connection points and used dielectric grease in those areas. It should keep it from corroding for many years to come.


Left side leg shield before.

Legshield after. I'll take a pic with the blinker installed and replace this one.

Inside glove box before

Inside glove box after

Glove box before cleanup

Glove box after cleanup

Nice first run video and clean up shots!

I got the Vermont Plate today! I screwed up and didn't send them the proper amount of $$ so they kicked the paperwork back. Two more weeks later and the plate is finally here. The sticker should be following shortly. Thank you MJRally for the awesome tutorial!

Scott,

Glad it worked for you!

The scooter is ready to roll. I've ridden it around the neighborhood (~5 miles) a couple of times and have cycled the new engine six or eight times. It sounds pretty sweet and seems to be doing nicely. I'm getting it ready to start using it to run errands and run around town. Then I'll put it up for sale.

It has always been the goal to get it running and mechanically sound, then move it on. I didn't plan on rebuilding the engine, but hey, that's part of the fun of getting something back on the road. You never know what you'll encounter until you dig in and check it out.

I did a little to it cosmetically. I removed any surface rust and used rubbing compound and a couple coats of silicone wax over the entire scooter, fender wells and all. I cleaned and greased all moving parts (shifter and throttle tubes, brake and clutch levers). I straightened out the legshield on the left side and cleaned and straightened the glove box. I even re-sprayed a part of the glove box. I was experimenting a little and didn't like the results, and didn't want to repaint the entire scooter. The front fender and left rear cowl had been resprayed before I got it at some point. There was even some filler on the fender and the cowl. I did what I could to clean off the crappy paint and leave the original. I also popped out a couple of dents in the rear cowls, and front fender.

I want to thank everyone for their help and input. Rebuilding the engine was new for me (on a Vespa) and all of your input was invaluable and very much appreciated.

OK, here are some pictures.


















It looked like that - Yikes!