Bogging at first 1/4 throttle [SOLVED with new motor]
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous1234Next
Author Message
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1526
Location: Veria, Greece
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:28 am quote
And this one's pulled from a working spare P200 motor I have around...

IMG_0654.JPG

Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:32 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
This one is a points ignition flywheel that's why is different...
no it literally says electronic on the flywheel on the pic above plus....

5588c714dfcceec7e1eb63ee31ac301a.png

Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:34 am quote
Also it cant be for points ignition, there is no lobe on the hub to open and close the points.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:42 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
I hope PP pulls through and get your money back...
Thanks, and thanks for posting. The nightmare continues.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:43 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
rowdyc wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
A P200 motor seems to usually go for about $800 to $1,200. They're just hard to find.


https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/mpo/d/miami-piaggio-vespa-200cc-px-stella/6842996807.html $1200

They come up often but not a lot. It just seems not at the time when people think they want one. Patience is a virtue.

The listing states

"∑ Engine built on Pinasco master engine case. "

Haven't I been hearing bad things about those?
I should have bought this one. I talked to the builder, he is an old school dude from Italy living in the US now. Whats the deal with Pinasco Master cases though?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1363
Location: London UK
Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:28 pm quote
Your problems sound like a nightmare. If this is the wrong flywheel what is it supposed to fit?

How many degrees out is the timing? Did you measure with a strobe light? Is an option to forget the marks and move the stator to where the timing is correct (23 degrees).

Then you can move onto the 'what else is wrong in this motor' stage.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:40 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Your problems sound like a nightmare. If this is the wrong flywheel what is it supposed to fit?

How many degrees out is the timing? Did you measure with a strobe light? Is an option to forget the marks and move the stator to where the timing is correct (23 degrees).

Then you can move onto the 'what else is wrong in this motor' stage.
i dont know. it doesn't run.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2119
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:37 am quote
Can you post a picture of the stator and a close-up of the crankshaft?

At this point, I'm thoroughly confused by what looks like a points flywheel, but a Ducati CDI.

I'd like to have a full inventory of relevant parts so we can figure this mystery out.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:16 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
Can you post a picture of the stator and a close-up of the crankshaft?
I cant bear to even look at it right now. I am mentally exhausted with this. After dealing with a trash LML engine all last summer I am now out $2000 on another engine.... that doesn't run.

This makes 3 years of constant disappointments on Vespa. I guess its just not meant to be.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1178
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:00 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
I guess its just not meant to be.
Oh man, don't give up. I bought a scooter that I haven't even had to open it up for $2k. Well, then $$ to get it to me, then $$ to register and title, then $$ to make it mine. So, probably closer to $2,800. But still, I've ridden that scooter almost every day. Almost....Every...Day... Since I got it. Once they are sorted, they run quite nicely.

I have faith you can get things sorted. Your scooter looks fantastic! You got this! Don't lose hope!
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2119
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:04 am quote
I don't know where you're located, but I'm sure that someone on this forum is nearby and would be happy to help. I'm in Chicago, if that's anywhere nearby, and would be more than willing to roll somewhere to help out.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 860
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:19 am quote
If I'm not mistaken, you are in NC right? Scooter Mercato is in Georgia and May be able to help. Also in the Ohio area is the guy that does thatscooterthing engine rebuild videos on YouTube. If you contact him on YouTube or Instagram he may be willing to help.

This is tragic to observe from outside and I'm impressed you have not given up!

At this point it may be better to just drive the distance and take your frame to one of these established guys and pay them in beer or cash to get the engine running and into frame.

Hoping your nightmare ends soon.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:06 pm quote
New flywheel keys showed up today. Dug out my old pointer torque wrench that was a gift to me from my father's childhood best friend. He gave it to me when I was 17 in 1988 and I dont recall ever using it on anything but the heads on my first 1967 VW Beetle (my first car)

Spec says 47 ft.lbs on the flywheel nut on this PX200E motor. it was damn scary putting it on that tight but hey....WW2 was won with a torque wrench, they didnt just say 'oh that's tight enough' so i spun it on around.

Yeah she fired up on the first kick. 23 degrees lined up nearly perfect with the strobe, couldn't get a pic of it though.

Leaking out from the exhaust flange is the only issue but I was told that would probably happen. Rode it about 1 mile and wew lad the power.

Thanks to everyone who helped and a word of advice to any noobs like me, when you buy a rebuilt motor no matter who it comes from, verify the torque on the flywheel nut BEFORE you crank it.

Cheers

e5b0546aee5e37445ce0d759ebabfb88.jpg

283768edffc398f611aec2c874b7b1a0.jpg

34ef7e6787a04b49545ad22eb9be2de8.jpg

Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2119
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:00 pm quote
Glad to hear that things are coming together after all!
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 860
Location: Staten Island, NY
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:12 pm quote
Congrats man! Hopefully this nightmare is at the end!
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:15 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
Glad to hear that things are coming together after all!
thanks , its been a long road...now I hope to hit a longer one for real!! NC OBX!
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:16 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
Congrats man! Hopefully this nightmare is at the end!
So far so good Swiss, thank you for the encouragement!
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:20 pm quote
Good to hear you got your timing sorted but kinda switching topic, another way I have found to determine if you have a P125 points flywheel verses a P200 is to look at the inside collar, not the outside like you posted. Youíll notice a lobe where the cam rides. Itís very subtle and P200 wont have it.

I dont have any pictures of it, but I recently rebuilt a P125 kitted to 170 motor for a friend. In addition to it not being properly jetted, it wasnít timed. Friend upgraded it to electronic ignition at some time prior and rode it, seized it and I was tasked with cleaning up the carnage. It started and ran, but timing was way off. With the stator turned as far as I could in the slots I was still a good 10 off.

Robot at Motorsports showed me the cam lobe on the inside and things started to make sense. I swapped it with a P200 flywheel I had lying around and things lined up on the strobe. Kit ran much better after that and no problems so far.

I still wonder if you could dremel the stator slots even more and get the stator eventually lined up for proper timing with the wrong flywheel? Anybody know?
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:29 pm quote
MJRally wrote:
I still wonder if you could dremel the stator slots even more and get the stator eventually lined up for proper timing with the wrong flywheel? Anybody know?
you could absolutely do that yes.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:37 pm quote
Yea thatís what I was thinking but never tried it. It wasnít my setup so I gave him the right flywheel.

Did you end up buying a new flywheel or did yours work?
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:51 pm quote
mine worked. all i had to do was make sure the flywheel nut was torqued at 45-50 ft lbs and it runs like a dream.....so far.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:59 pm quote
Killer. Dont forget to check the torque on your head nuts (16-19 ft/lbs) and the rear hub nut (55-65 ft/lbs, make sure thereís a cotter pin).
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:43 pm quote
MJRally wrote:
Killer. Dont forget to check the torque on your head nuts (16-19 ft/lbs) and the rear hub nut (55-65 ft/lbs, make sure thereís a cotter pin).
THANKS i'll do this tomorrow !
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:05 am quote
So this happened first thing this morning.

The cheapo kick start stripped because it just clamps on, the bolt doesn't pass through the notch in the shaft like on a REAL Piaggio 174312

488385f1491a3b222c7632bd68a97b5b.jpg

71af78c479cf5ef3fbb731dfafd271a6.png

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 860
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:41 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
So this happened first thing this morning.

The cheapo kick start stripped because it just clamps on, the bolt doesn't pass through the notch in the shaft like on a REAL Piaggio 174312
Another win for OSC
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2119
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:42 am quote
Well, you probably wanted to replace that kick start with a curved VBB-style kick start lever anyway.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:46 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
Well, you probably wanted to replace that kick start with a curved VBB-style kick start lever anyway.
I do, but i'd have to split the case and install a vintage quadrant, because the vintage quadrants and P series quadrants are different. A Vintage lever wont fit on this P motor.
Addicted
GL, PK, PE200
Joined: 24 Apr 2012
Posts: 639
Location: Deep in the heart of Texas
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:04 am quote
Tradspa wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
Well, you probably wanted to replace that kick start with a curved VBB-style kick start lever anyway.
I do, but i'd have to split the case and install a vintage quadrant, because the vintage quadrants and P series quadrants are different. A Vintage lever wont fit on this P motor.
You could spit the cases if you want the actual kick lever for a Sprint....or get the curved one for the the P.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/kickstart+lever+vbb+style+_75122000
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1178
Location: Florence, OR
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:11 am quote
Damn, looks like bump starting until you get a lever. Hopefully you don't live at the bottom of a hill.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:30 am quote
rowdyc wrote:
Tradspa wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
Well, you probably wanted to replace that kick start with a curved VBB-style kick start lever anyway.
I do, but i'd have to split the case and install a vintage quadrant, because the vintage quadrants and P series quadrants are different. A Vintage lever wont fit on this P motor.
You could spit the cases if you want the actual kick lever for a Sprint....or get the curved one for the the P.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/kickstart+lever+vbb+style+_75122000
Oh that one, yeah I considered it but I dont want to wait, i just got a P one that should be here friday.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm quote
So i took this 'free' exhaust off and attached it to the flange first then used a jack to push it up so i could the the bolt through the swingarm. I was able to get it up a little more on the flange doing this but It's still spitting a little oil...but less now

my main concern is there is a bit of sideways pressure on the flange now....potential problem? could this bit of sideways pressure cause the cylinder to flex under high speed/heat and cause a soft seize?
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3216
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:06 pm quote
Tradspa wrote:
So i took this 'free' exhaust off and attached it to the flange first then used a jack to push it up so i could the the bolt through the swingarm. I was able to get it up a little more on the flange doing this but It's still spitting a little oil...but less now

my main concern is there is a bit of sideways pressure on the flange now....potential problem? could this bit of sideways pressure cause the cylinder to flex under high speed/heat and cause a soft seize?
Sadly youre not special with the exhaust pulling a bit. The quality control on exhausts is pretty low. My last 3 performance exhausts have all had something wrong with them. I think my last stock exhaust fit better than my $400 one.

And no sideways pressure on the exhaust flange wont warp your cylinder. Youíd need tons of pressure or something ridiculous to warp things enough for a seize. Break in correctly, jet accordingly and watch for air leaks. That will keep you from seizing.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 860
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:13 pm quote
MJRally wrote:
Sadly youre not special with the exhaust pulling a bit. The quality control on exhausts is pretty low. My last 3 performance exhausts have all had something wrong with them. I think my last stock exhaust fit better than my $400 one.
the two exhausts that came with my stella were impossible to fit up flush on the exhaust stud of the cylinder. I sold the simonini and replaced the other one with a sip road xl. Surprisingly the sip road xl fit perfectly up to the cylinder head! It still leaks a bit of oil at the connection point.
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:27 pm quote
okay thanks guys.

She running good, knock on wood.

Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:06 pm quote
what oil do yall use? i bought a bottle of this and have been using it but i dont like how its not blue...it doesnt change the color of the gas so sometimes im like....did i remember to mix this gas?

s-l1600.png

Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 860
Location: Staten Island, NY
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:20 pm quote
Tradspa wrote:
what oil do yall use? i bought a bottle of this and have been using it but i dont like how its not blue...it doesnt change the color of the gas so sometimes im like....did i remember to mix this gas?
I've been using Motul 710. It's green: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C739LTY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

edit: then again, im on automix stella. not sure if it's the appropriate oil for premix.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4761
Location: So Cal
Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:27 pm quote
You should get in the habit of adding oil to the tank every time you add gas.

Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:40 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
You should get in the habit of adding oil to the tank every time you add gas.

Damn good tip!

Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:43 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
It's green
so am I so this is a match made in heaven lol.... purchased!
Banned
'01 ET4; '65 VBB Restomod with P200E engine, '67 VW Type 1, '80 Airstream
Joined: 05 Jun 2018
Posts: 289
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:33 pm quote
What makes a vespa transmission change gears on its on under hard load?
Team Scooter Trash for Petfinder Foundation   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous1234Next
[ Time: 0.3892s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0700s) ][ Debug on ]