[SSR] - The Electric Future
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Member
200 GT
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Posts: 49
Location: SLC
Wed May 08, 2019 8:17 am quote
So I've been interested in an electric commuter vehicle for a while. They sound super cool, but my GT is paid for, costs basically nothing, and is super optimized for commutes like mine, so I wasn't ready to take the plunge. Vespa released the electriccca and I was like "meh."

Then we interviewed Erik Buell on the show and his hypnotoad-like powers got me falling in love with the idea of the Flow specifically and the idea of electric machines in general.

And then some battery experts on reddit were talking batteries and concluded we're at around $125-150s/kwh realm, and that their math (which was convincing) said the deflection point where we'll see things aggressively go electric lives around 100/kwh. (It becomes cheaper to make power and store it at that point than constant generation, which makes renewable stuff punch in the same class with Burning Stuff.)

I see all this smog here in Salt Lake that's sludging up my kids lungs, listen to Buell again... and the Fuell pre-order pops up.

CLICK. And like that electric is in my future. More builtin storage than the GT, moronic acceleration, and mad cool design. I have tons to learn about electric vehicles but fortunately have time to learn (2020... oh god the waiting.)

The Fuell will, realistically, take over my "Second Bike" slot presently occupied by the GT, and I'm a lot more ok with that than I expected. (the fact that the GT costs me like 100 bucks a year to own and operate helps me be ok with it as a third bike)

The writing on the wall seems to be that internal combustion is on notice, but it hasn't sunk in yet. Are ya'll ready for Even Quieter Vespas? Is an electric bike in the garage and solar power on the roof going to be the new normal? (Sorry Seattle and Burlington)
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

Wed May 08, 2019 8:50 am quote
$10,995

Electrics will require eventual battery replacement . . one example is $1,095 for the CSC City Slicker.



Wed May 08, 2019 9:51 am
This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?



Wed May 08, 2019 10:02 am
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 6810
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Wed May 08, 2019 10:07 am quote
tortoise wrote:
$10,995

Electrics will require eventual battery replacement . . one example is $1,095 for the CSC City Slicker.
That would be 148 full up's which would cost $900 or more. That is at $2.95 a gal.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 6810
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Wed May 08, 2019 10:26 am quote
tortoise wrote:
$10,995

Electrics will require eventual battery replacement . . one example is $1,095 for the CSC City Slicker.
From a post by AF1 Racing, "Our experience with other EV motorcycles is the battery is one of the most reliable parts on them. Zero rates theirs for 300k miles, and there are many 500k+ and a few million mile Teslas still on the original battery. A scooter will not rack up miles like that, especially at 31mph."

Is 300,000 miles enough?
Sponsor
Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 368
Location: Austin on IH35
Wed May 08, 2019 10:30 am quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
Is 300,000 miles enough?
Zero rates that 300k to 80%, so its still not a junk battery, just 80% as good as a brand new one. ie, a 20% reduction in range over 300k miles.

The chassis will be worn out before the battery.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 6810
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Wed May 08, 2019 10:33 am quote
AF1 Racing wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
Is 300,000 miles enough?
Zero rates that 300k to 80%, so its still not a junk battery, just 80% as good as a brand new one. ie, a 20% reduction in range over 300k miles.

The chassis will be worn out before the battery.
I want a ZERO SOOOO bad
I will be calling you one day to ship me one hopefully.
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

Thu May 09, 2019 6:30 am quote
fledermaus wrote:
Noting your Wisconsin location . . Flux is based in Madison.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21437
Location: Palatka, Florida
Thu May 09, 2019 8:49 am quote
I went ahead and removed posts that were sliding to the political as a pre-emptive strike to keep this potential interesting conversation about electric vehicles from getting locked. Comments about global warming always get political and usually heated. Pardon the pun. Stay on topic.
eeee-bip
Benelli TNT 125 "Bean Alley" Kymco AK550 The War to end all Wars
Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Posts: 16069
Location: South East Great England of Britishland
Thu May 09, 2019 8:55 am quote
Click
Give me a range of 150 miles per charge and I'm on board.

Bill x
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
Joined: 30 Mar 2014
Posts: 1456
Location: Minneapolis USA
Thu May 09, 2019 1:04 pm quote
Electrica
There was posting on this same topic about the new Vespa Electrica.

I would love a quiet all electric vehicle if it made sense economically.
Repeating myself, I am optimistic that technical breakthroughs will solve the cost problem. Now, the small economy of units sold is not pushing the price point to affordability for most.

Equation: It does not make practical sense to spend 5X more to save 2X
on conventional fuel vehicles.

But hey, who could have anticipated flying in the air, wireless transmissions,
and the curing impact of modern medicine (Sounds like impossible Voodoo).
This electrical thing will be a whole lot easier to crack. Invent the better
battery and you could be a billionaire!

Bob Copeland
Member
200 GT
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Posts: 49
Location: SLC
Fri May 10, 2019 7:36 am quote
Re: Electrica
Bob Copeland wrote:
Equation: It does not make practical sense to spend 5X more to save 2X
on conventional fuel vehicles.
Very true. This isn't something that's economically advantaged for me any more than replacing my dear departed Vstrom would be. I look at this as putting my money where my mouth is AND a chance to finally get to do something awesome and new. Like maybe a little Vetter and Buell coolness is rubbed off on me.

I am excited as hell about the tech. Silent? Awesome. Less Moving Parts? Very cool. Mad torque? Yes, please!

My roof's due for a replacement next year, and given that it's pointed 190 with a 30 degree slope at 41 degrees north in a high desert... I've got a near perfect setup to solar it up. Solar's cool, electric bike's cool, but the two together, now THAT is interesting.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2007 LX150 2015 GTS 2013 BV 350
Joined: 13 Sep 2012
Posts: 8349
Location: Fond du Lac, Wisconsin
Fri May 10, 2019 7:42 am quote
tortoise wrote:
Noting your Wisconsin location . . Flux is based in Madison.
Hmm...thanks. Slipped under my radar.
Ossessionato
GT200 & GTS250 & NC750X & Royal Enfield Pegasus
Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 2040
Location: London
Fri May 10, 2019 8:51 am quote
I was mildly interested in a Tesla but couldn't work out how long the batteries would last. That and I couldn't afford one. One interesting point was that you shouldn't fully charge the Tesla batteries nor fully discharge them if you want them to last. The ideal was apparently to keep them in the 30% to 80% range. Of course that means you only get half the advertised range if you want your battery to last. It might not matter so much on a long range Tesla but if your electric scooter is advertised as having a range of 60 miles then your choice is to either keep your range at 30 miles and partially charge every night or get the full 60 mile range and just shag the battery.

(source)
Ossessionato
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 4942
Location: Downtown Toronto
Fri May 10, 2019 9:04 am quote
I think I've posted this elsewhere here... The issue with electric vehicles besides what has been mentioned is that they do not work in the urban core where most people live in condos. With new construction they are creating rough-ins for electricity to be run to the parking spots but it is an option for the new owner and not done as a regular practice. For those of us in older (my building is about 20 years old) buildings can't even plug in a battery tender let alone power a vehicle. The true irony is this is the environment they make the most sense. There also does not seem to be an outcry of people wanting it so there is that as well.

Me... I like a motorbike that goes vroom and feel that it adds to the melding of man and machine. It doesn't have to be loud but I would miss it if it wasn't there.

I'm holding out for the flying cars we were promised so long ago.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2010 Can Am Spyder RT-S, 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 5150
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Fri May 10, 2019 9:06 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
I'm holding out for the flying cars we were promised so long ago.
Only if it makes that mememememememememe noise from the Jetsons.
Ossessionato
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 4942
Location: Downtown Toronto
Fri May 10, 2019 9:22 am quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
I'm holding out for the flying cars we were promised so long ago.
Only if it makes that mememememememememe noise from the Jetsons.
Well... duh.. yeah! Wouldn't have it any other way.
Hooked
Joined: 21 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

Fri May 10, 2019 10:14 am quote
Member
200 GT
Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Posts: 49
Location: SLC
Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 pm quote
Harbinger wrote:
I think I've posted this elsewhere here... The issue with electric vehicles besides what has been mentioned is that they do not work in the urban core where most people live in condos. With new construction they are creating rough-ins for electricity to be run to the parking spots but it is an option for the new owner and not done as a regular practice. For those of us in older (my building is about 20 years old) buildings can't even plug in a battery tender let alone power a vehicle.
You're making me remember all the sketchy apartments I've lived in and even having a parking space much less one with power was an oddity.

I wonder if the assumption is that people will charge them while at work? In my case the whole front row of the garage is a bank of electric chargers, but as you note that's all new (<5 years) construction. The charging units look pretty turnkey but I assume you've gotta run some major juice to them to make em useful.
Quote:
I'm holding out for the flying cars we were promised so long ago.
A clickbait article assures me they're only 10 years away.
Ossessionato
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 4942
Location: Downtown Toronto
Fri May 10, 2019 1:19 pm quote
RockyMtnRR wrote:
Harbinger wrote:
I think I've posted this elsewhere here... The issue with electric vehicles besides what has been mentioned is that they do not work in the urban core where most people live in condos. With new construction they are creating rough-ins for electricity to be run to the parking spots but it is an option for the new owner and not done as a regular practice. For those of us in older (my building is about 20 years old) buildings can't even plug in a battery tender let alone power a vehicle.
You're making me remember all the sketchy apartments I've lived in and even having a parking space much less one with power was an oddity.

I wonder if the assumption is that people will charge them while at work? In my case the whole front row of the garage is a bank of electric chargers, but as you note that's all new (<5 years) construction. The charging units look pretty turnkey but I assume you've gotta run some major juice to them to make em useful.
Quote:
I'm holding out for the flying cars we were promised so long ago.
A clickbait article assures me they're only 10 years away.
Ha! Yeah I had a few of those sketchy places myself back in the day. In this case though I'm talking about places worth about $1,000,000 that still don't have it. We have no charging ability at my own office or any of my clients except for maybe 1 and even then it wouldn't be a fast charge outlet. I ride bikes so park on the street it could be some of the indoor public parking lots around the downtown core do offer it. Looking at a map there are a few, but not exactly a plethora.

https://chargehub.com/en/countries/canada/ontario/toronto.html?city_id=2156
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4622
Location: So Cal
Fri May 10, 2019 5:19 pm quote
Bill Dog wrote:
Give me a range of 150 miles per charge and I'm on board.

Bill x
That + 60mph top speed and I’ll consider it
Ossessionato
2019 MP3 SPORT 500 IE
Joined: 25 Aug 2007
Posts: 3844
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora Reina de los Ángeles sobre el Río Porciúncula
Fri May 10, 2019 6:53 pm quote
I commute on my MP3 500. To keep up with traffic I need to go 75 mph. My commute is only 40 miles round trip, though I would like the ability to go farther. My brother lives 200 miles away.

So my wish list would have an electric MP3 with a top speed of 80 mph and at least 200 mile range.

If they could develop a better, lighter battery that charges much faster then EVs would take off like crazy.

Oh, and soon, please. I'm not getting any younger.
Hooked
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 279
Location: Nebraska
Tue May 14, 2019 1:57 pm quote
Cars
One source thinks that electric cars will be cheaper than IC cars within 5 years or so:

https://phys.org/news/2019-05-electric-vehicle-revolution-china.html

I would imagine the same to be true for scooters/motorcycles.

Which suggests that waiting to buy might be a good idea. Excellent chance that battery tech will be far better and cheaper.
Ossessionato
Modded Vespa 2017 GTV 300, BMW 2017 C650GT, Ural 2019 Gear Up
Joined: 21 May 2017
Posts: 4942
Location: Downtown Toronto
Tue May 14, 2019 2:13 pm quote
mpfrank wrote:
I commute on my MP3 500. To keep up with traffic I need to go 75 mph. My commute is only 40 miles round trip, though I would like the ability to go farther. My brother lives 200 miles away.

So my wish list would have an electric MP3 with a top speed of 80 mph and at least 200 mile range.

If they could develop a better, lighter battery that charges much faster then EVs would take off like crazy.

Oh, and soon, please. I'm not getting any younger.
If the piaggio e-bicycle (sorry, "scooter") is any sign I would not hold my breath on them doing anything. The larger manufacturers though like BMW, Yamaha, Honda just may. The Ural concept also holds a lot of promise as the sidecar potentially could hold a LOT of battery. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in the next 5-10 years.

The fact that Piaggio has at least done the Vespa branded electric scooter is promising as much as I make fun of it. If sales are good we may see something with a set of balls but the price is a little disconcerting. The HPE is also a good sign as it shows they still are in the game however the competition seems to be getting stiffer. We'll see who rules Westeros after this shakes out. Maybe they will release a wicked dragon red HPE electric Vespa in the near future and surprise us all.
Resident Grump
MAC motor 2WD. 30 Oct 2006
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 15888
Location: MN
Tue May 14, 2019 6:17 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Bill Dog wrote:
Give me a range of 150 miles per charge and I'm on board.

Bill x
That + 60mph top speed and I’ll consider it
It’s here. What’s stopping you? Yeah, prices are hard to swallow but remember with batteries you’re buying you gas and oil for the m Xtracycle 3-6 years.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 6810
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Wed May 15, 2019 9:45 am quote
Harbinger wrote:
mpfrank wrote:
I commute on my MP3 500. To keep up with traffic I need to go 75 mph. My commute is only 40 miles round trip, though I would like the ability to go farther. My brother lives 200 miles away.

So my wish list would have an electric MP3 with a top speed of 80 mph and at least 200 mile range.

If they could develop a better, lighter battery that charges much faster then EVs would take off like crazy.

Oh, and soon, please. I'm not getting any younger.
If the piaggio e-bicycle (sorry, "scooter") is any sign I would not hold my breath on them doing anything. The larger manufacturers though like BMW, Yamaha, Honda just may. The Ural concept also holds a lot of promise as the sidecar potentially could hold a LOT of battery. It should be interesting to see how this plays out in the next 5-10 years.

The fact that Piaggio has at least done the Vespa branded electric scooter is promising as much as I make fun of it. If sales are good we may see something with a set of balls but the price is a little disconcerting. The HPE is also a good sign as it shows they still are in the game however the competition seems to be getting stiffer. We'll see who rules Westeros after this shakes out. Maybe they will release a wicked dragon red HPE electric Vespa in the near future and surprise us all.
Piaggio will develope an electric or go out of business in the near future.
Hooked
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 279
Location: Nebraska
Tue May 21, 2019 3:03 pm quote
Maybe
WEB-Tech wrote:
Piaggio will develope an electric or go out of business in the near future.
I suspect there will be a good business in 'petrol' vehciles for some time to come, both for collectors and nostalgia fans. And what is more nostalgic than a Vespa?

Very possibly they will be seen as a sign of wealth, sophistication, and class, as the hoi polloi whiz around on their cheap and trouble-free electrics, while the upper class drop in regularly to have their toys looked after at the local atelier.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 Midnight Blue (SOLD)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2622
Location: Bangkok
Tue May 21, 2019 4:11 pm quote
The big rush for electric vehicle, profit aside, is to reduce urban pollution. So if one does not live in an urban area no need to electric vehicle.
Secondly all you twitchy electric people better get in soon while there is still enough electricity to go round.

There is not enough electricity generated in the US for everyone to have an electric car.

Then there is the running of AC in the south and heating in the north to take care of.

Scooter to pop down to 7- Eleven maybe OK. The rest?

Then there will somehow be different rates for electricity. One rate as now for dwellings. Another rate for vehicle charging.
Hooked
LX125, Beverly 350
Joined: 05 Aug 2013
Posts: 308
Location: NE Scotland
Wed May 22, 2019 2:28 am quote
mpfrank wrote:
I commute on my MP3 500. To keep up with traffic I need to go 75 mph. My commute is only 40 miles round trip, though I would like the ability to go farther. My brother lives 200 miles away.

So my wish list would have an electric MP3 with a top speed of 80 mph and at least 200 mile range.

If they could develop a better, lighter battery that charges much faster then EVs would take off like crazy.

Oh, and soon, please. I'm not getting any younger.
They are close

http://www.quadrovehicles.com/en/qooder/eqooder
Molto Verboso
2011 300GTV
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 1720
Location: Agate Fossil Beds, Nebraska
Wed May 22, 2019 5:45 am quote
waspmike wrote:
The big rush for electric vehicle, profit aside, is to reduce urban pollution. So if one does not live in an urban area no need to electric vehicle.
Secondly all you twitchy electric people better get in soon while there is still enough electricity to go round.

There is not enough electricity generated in the US for everyone to have an electric car.

Then there is the running of AC in the south and heating in the north to take care of.

Scooter to pop down to 7- Eleven maybe OK. The rest?

Then there will somehow be different rates for electricity. One rate as now for dwellings. Another rate for vehicle charging.
Agreed.
TheUS is a unique market.
Hooked
BV 350
Joined: 22 Nov 2016
Posts: 279
Location: Nebraska
Mon May 27, 2019 11:40 am quote
No need
No need to worry about the batteries going bad.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/nissan-leaf-batteries-can-outlast-cars-by-10-years-automaker-claims/
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