Modern Vespa

Already replaced the split rims with sip tubeless rims and have slowly started to upgrade a few things to get more speed over the 55-56 mph max. Last summer I installed a SIP Road XL pipe which helped me get up to about 58-59 mph with 6500-7000 rpms. Last fall I replaced the stock reeds with boyesen reeds to get a little better throttle response.

Currently prepping a Malossi 166 kit to slap on pnp to start this summer. First time doing this. I chamfered the ports and already made a mistake by slipping and nicking the cylinder wall. DAMMIT! Other than that I was pretty steady and smooth with the dremel. Should have stuck with the hand file for the small transfer ports because they are hard to reach. The scratches did not seem very deep so I figured I would attempt to fix it.

I decided to try to salvage the nicks by using polishing cream and a buffing bit on the dremel. That only shined it up, didn't remove the nicks, so I then sanded them out 1000 grit and then re-honed the bore. I think it looks good and hopefully this does not ruin compression or cause any issues. If this is wrong.. feel free to criticize me. I am just going full speed ahead and learning from mistakes as they happen.

Next is to sand the head and cylinder top absolute flat.

Using FMP notes, I am gonna try to hit these timing points using base gasket/head gasket and shaping the exhaust port to hit desired mark:

Exhaust time: 176 degrees
Transfer time: 120 degrees
Blowdown: 28 degrees

Other upgrades acquired and waiting to be installed:

22T clutch upgear
dellorto SIP 24/24 Carb

Once I get it set up and running good, I'll leave it like this until next winter when I rebuild the engine, replace the crank and match the cases if it does not provide enough as is.


two nicks right on the bridge between transfer ports. This is after polishing cream/buff wheel.

all the buffing wheel did was make the nicks shiny and smooth.

tiny sandpaper slices with a twitchy finger.

re-honed with a cheap ass harbor freight tool.

Looks like it will be ok. Will be worth a try and if not there is the re-bore option (with a better piston). Didn't need to sand it really just the hone would have done.

Be very accurate when going for those porting durations. They should pull 22/68 gearing, as long as you don't go over. 166 squish needs to be no more than 1.00mm.

As you are already finding out, set up is everything. Not just the amount of power that comes from a correct set up carb but the riding comfort of no bogging and easy starting.

This should be fun. Just the SIP Road Sport and jetting got mine to get well over the 55 mph mark, but I don't want to over rev.

I could have saved myself an hour of scratching the sandpaper over it to smooth out. My OCD was satisfied with its removal though so well worth the hours work.

I did not want to go the rebore route as I think the cost of a new piston and rebore is the same price I paid for this kit new. But you do have me wondering what piston you are talking about, and what the standard bore up sizes are? I was on sip looking and I think they make a 61.4mm and a 61.8mm piston which I assume are meant for 1st and 2nd over?

This malossi 166 mk iii kit comes only with a single base gasket, a head gasket and an o ring which I assume is meant for the head. Im curious when I throw all these on how close the default port timings, blowdown and squish come out to the desired marks. I've also been looking for various thickness base gaskets cause I realized I may need more options than the 1 provided. So now Im wondering if I need to order the malossi specific ones or if I can get others. Just don't want to wait for another sip order with the week turnaround time and shipping costs, but I'll probably have to anyways.

If I need to grind the exhaust port out, I will take it slow and aim for less is more. That port is much easier to reach so I should be fine with a steady hand on that. The transfer ports were just a weird angle with no direct access which led to a slight slip when trying to smooth out the transition from top/bottom to side walls. Had no issues using the dremel on the exhaust port with easy access.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Wed May 15, 2019 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total

I've got a tach and temp gauge on mine so I'm less worried about it than I was before. When I started riding 2 stroke I thought the engine was screaming for me to slow down.. turns out I was barely revving it, and it wants to scream! Needless to say, I'm not as hesitant to ride it hard anymore.

If I end up rebuilding it, I was also planning on replacing the crank with a 60mm crank to hopefully edge out every bit of power.

Hey Jack, just wondering what the acceptable tolerances are for proper ring gap? I have read it should be approx. Bore size x .004 = ring gap. For this 166 with 61mm bore that means gap should be 0.244mm. the rings i have are closer to 0.252mm or 0.27mm. i don't have an accurate measurement, just know they are loose enough for the 0.252mm feeler to fit in comfortably.

Those rings are ok. 0.2mm up to and maybe beyond 1.0mm will run.

Great news!

I'll be sidetracked with a week of work next week so i will not be able to put serious time into this upgrade for another week. But I'm ready to finally get this on the Stella. Gonna install the 22t clutch gear first just to get a sense of how it affects the performance and torque as it currently stands. Like to understand exactly how each part changes the end performance. Then once the malossi is on I'll change over to the 24/24 carb and start jetting for that with an optimistic increase over the suggested jetting based on how much over stock my jetting is currently.

Your tips for jetting have been an immense help because i now feel like i understand generally what the symptoms of different conditions mean and which jets are affected. So I'm no longer shooting into the dark but know how bogging feels from the main vs idle, how hanging idles affect the running conditions and what to change when i see each of these conditions.

My process for jet changes now are to set the idle for quick return with no hanging by enriching air mix.. check the main for bogging by running wot then if not bogging check for lean by choke testing wot.. bring main down or up one size at a time, then adjust air mix screw out or in until idle settles fast again (seems 1 main jet size ends up being between a half a turn and a full turn on the air mix in the correct direction for what main jet change I made), then check plug at both ends after miles of running. Then continue again if needed.

I rushed home from busy weekend of family stuff to pull the clutch out of the stella tonight to upgrade the gear cog to 22T and am now questioning if there is a clutch side oil seal leak? I was planning on doing the 22T upgrade and installing the malossi cylinder this week at night since I am working all week, and hopefully having it ready to ride next weekend. Now I am thinking maybe I should rebuild the engine now instead of this winter.. does this seem like it should happen soon given the oil on the axle inside the rubber bushing mount?

There is a thick layer of crusty dried oil on the engine this side. It may be from the carb air mix screw hole, but the wet oil on the axle worries me that there is a oil seal leak on the engine.

It also appears my clutch plates were dry as a bone, cork starting to fall apart in a few spots, and the plate tabs are rounded off and starting to break. So I should at minimum replace the plates. While I'm at it, I think I should probably upgrade the clutch basket to reinforced. Is this a good choice for a 22T reinforced clutch?
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+sport+_93404000

If so, I may return the 22T gear cog I already bought for the existing clutch and buy this new complete clutch.

Additionally, I am wondering what exactly causes damage to the clutch plate tabs like that? Is it from down shifting at too high an rpm or does that only affect the shift cross and gears?


oil on axle inside the bushing? oil seal leak? should rebuild now or this winter?



quarter inch thick layer of oil crusted all over the engine on this side.



so much crusty oil





bone dry

tabs rounded and damaged on plates

Swiss,
Everything look completely normal with your scooter. The engines will get that dirty if you don't clean them. I like to stay on top of keeping mine clean, so i clean my scoot engines once i notice ANY dirt or oil on them (don't judge me). The clutch corks look like that, so they too also look normal. The ears on them wear out because they're a wear item. If you thow a bunch more power into your scooter, they wear out faster. To make them last longer don't do any hard accerations or down shifting at high RPMs.

Before i would intall that cylinder kit, i would recommend to rebuild the engine first. Make sure all your gears are in tip top shape, and replace the seals, cruciform, and both side of the crank bearings. I'd also replace that brass trust washer that's on the clutch.


Oh, this is a Stella engine right? If you haven't replaced the stock crankshaft, do it now before it self destructs. You might also have to replace the spring gears that are located inside the cush drive too. If you have to replace more that a couple of the loose gears in your transmission, it might just be better to upgrade to a higher quality Piaggio EFL complete gear stack and axle.

Ok so there is a vote for rebuild now instead later. I appreciate the confidence that this is not a seal leak but just normal oil coverage from 2 stroke engine not cleaned regularly!

I wanted to ride it this summer asap thats why I was thinking of doing the cylinder kit first and then rebuild later, but I guess since I'm already in the mindset that I should rebuild now, then I will probably do that.

In that case, I was planning on doing the case matching and replacing the crankshaft in the winter, but I will do that now. My thought was to throw a long stroke crank in to get more out of the malossi 166 to a 176. I understand 57 vs 60 crank, but am not sure how the 105 vs 110 conrod would change things.. aka.. with this malossi 166 mk III kit, any suggestions on if I should even do the 60mm crank and whether it should be a 105 vs 110 conrod?

Looks like this will take precedent this summer to get it done as soon as possible. The p200e project is on hold until I get my main commuter rebuilt to highway suited needs.. as my goal all along was to get this stella suitable to drive to work every day in Manhattan by the fall when my work schedule picks up again. The p200e can wait till the fall/winter for the rebuild.

I guess I see on SIP website that 110 conrod is for 200 engines, 105 is for 150 engines.

As WDC all looks normal for a properly used engine. Be sure to check the gearbox oil level every few thousand miles. When the seal is gone it shows here first.

I know people (weird people) like the 7 spring clutch but I think its just old junk.

A new cosa clutch with a 22 cog would be best. The banded one you chose is a fair choice. Like all of us I only use the CR80 plates now. They do everything better than the steel ones, work better, don't slip, can use lighter springs, last longer, don't bend etc.

CR80 plates now come in original or SIP versions
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip+_93081700

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+friction+plates+sip_93081800

If you still have decent gearbox oil, you could put that clutch back in as is and fit the 166 as planned. re-build in the Winter.

I'll definitely buy those clutch plates in the future. Just bought normal plates from scooterworks in the US for now to save on shipping costs and get them faster. I will rebuild in the winter as I would rather ride now and run in the new cylinder this summer before tearing it apart and being down some time. It gives me time to hold off spending a chunk of money I can't afford right now as the new clutch and crankshaft are the only parts I haven't bought yet.

I am thinking this crankshaft:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/flowed+crankshaft+serie+pro+_46030000

If your Stella is rideable I would enjoy it over summer as is, then do the rebuild plus upgrades over the winter. Unless you have another bike you can ride while the Stella is on the bench?

My two cents, which might be biased cause rising season is so short here in Canada!

I can hit about 70mph on flat road with my Stella. Has a Polini kit not matched, upgear, Ducati CDI, Boyesen dual stage reads and a SIP road. Tried a 24/24 but ran like crap and didn’t change much, so stuck with the 20/20 due to advice on here. The 24/24 is just to big for the LML stock reed block.

I’m also still running the stock crank, never rebuilt. The economy crank from Mercato is another good option. Oh, and that motor looks just like mine if I don’t clean it, really annoying.

I can do 60 by gps downhill. I'm a bigger guy with stock engine right now. Looking for 70 with the upgraded top end. I was gonna do some minimal porting to the exhaust but i think I'll just throw the cylinder on with included gaskets as is for now because i plan on the 60mm crank later. With that in mind i think it's better to leave the exhaust port default until i get the different crank in there so that I'm setting up the timing correctly for that crank, not the 57mm.

Btw, i lived in Camden for a few Summers back in mid 2000s when i worked at the photo workshops. Loved Maine. Just can't find work there to afford living there. So i deal with nyc despite preferring the woods.

Just want to make sure the new 22T gear cog plate being smaller diameter than the original LML 21T cog plate does not matter... I assume since the clutch plates sit above this it is no problem, but I want to confirm before throwing it into my clutch.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+gear+cog+2226+teeth+_17473300


22T on left, original LML 21T on right

That 22 cog is for a 6 spring clutch. Won't fit without changing the riveted plate. Guess that means getting the Cosa clutch quicker than you thought.

If we try to set the Malossi 166 up for a few extra revs you should get away with lower gearing until the rebuild.

Dammit. thought I was ordering the right part from the right section in SIP site.. I see now the LML one is 108mm whereas the PX ones are 96mm.

So in that case, I will try to order a BGM superstrong clutch with 22T at some point in the next few months. Will run clutch as is, with new plates, currently. So the last parts needed to purchase for this full engine rebuild late fall/winter are BGM clutch, some 60mm long stroke crankshaft and to decide if I will upgrade to a 30mm carb and reed box? That last one I'm not as fond of as I kinda like keeping as much original functionality as possible, which means I would prefer to keep the automix setup. I will also be keeping the electric start.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/bgm8096/clutch-bgm-pro-superstrong-cnc-type-cosa2/fl-for-primary-gear-67/68-tooth-vespa-px80-px125-px150-t5-125cc-cosa-sprint150-rally180-gt125/gtr125-ts125-gl150-super125-vnc1-11001-super150?number=BGM8098

The older non 200 scooters all used the 6 spring clutch. Easy mistake to make when buying online.

The BGM clutch and others similar are properly strong. Would be the last clutch basket you buy. They just don't break. However the clutch cover and casing need Dremelling to make them fit. To get the cover right takes a while. Fitting spacers, despite everything they say, leak oil. Worth it in the end but not easy.

That banded clutch will go straight in (with a slight Dremel work on the casing oil way) and more suited to what your doing.

When is the 166 going on?

I am reinstalling the clutch with new plates Sunday. Might also install the 166 at the same time then. If not Sunday then Monday or Tuesday. Just gonna use the included gaskets as is for now, but want to measure port timings before closing it up to get an idea where it stands pnp. Also will need to adjust flywheel timing which will be my first time doing that. Short answer.. in the next few days whenever i build courage to dive head first.

Nothing to add except that I'm following along. Thanks for the pics!

For pnp your timing should be ok as it is. Assuming its 18 degrees.

I see why you just want to bolt the kit on and see what happens. If there isn't any other information with the kit, for pnp set up the piston should be exactly flush with the top of the cylinder. If the piston is poking out of the cylinder by any amount, the already short transfer timing of these basic kits will be even shorter. Makes them rev high but go gut less.

With the 60mm crank this all changes for the better.

An SI26/26 will be good for your final set up. Because the carb is only an inch from the crank it works like its bigger. Your only problem is the LML reeds but better ones should be enough. On a commuter autolube has to be the way to go.

That's the same 22T I used on my 7 spring LML. fits just fine!

I actually ordered a cheap eBay Indian 22T and thought the same thing you did, so I tossed it in the trash and later bought the expensive FA Italia, only to find it to be identical!!!! so I asked on here and everyone said no issue for fitment and its been running fine ever since.

heres one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VESPA-PX-CLUTCH-DRIVE-GEAR-Kupplungsritzel-22-TH-Kupplung-SMALL-7-SPRING/392270616401?hash=item5b55269751:g:QgcAAOSw21Rb1ga7

Side note: My wife and I just moved back, so yeah, we will see how it works long term! shoot me a PM if you ever make it up this way.

Last edited by keaton85 on Sun May 26, 2019 5:40 am; edited 1 time in total

The 24/24 on the stock reeds is finicky, I wouldn't want to see how the 26/26 acts! Rob from Hodgespeed tried to convince me of this years ago. I didn't listen and fittled for a long time with carbs until I went back to a 20/20 without issue.

Have you taken the cork plates out to check the wear on it? I just measured the plates, original cog and fa Italia cog diameters and the fa is 20mm smaller. This would mean that the cork plate up against that smaller cog would be half on and half off the gear cog creating uneven wear and probably leading to drastically shortened life of that plate. I don't want to test this without some definitive confirmation as i want to get the refund from sip if it is not correct.




Lml

Fa Italia

Plate pad only width

Fa Italia cog cork plate over hang

Lml cog cork plate overhang .. none

I guess because of the sandwich of multiple plates with all but one being correct size, they would create equal pressure on that one spot with over hang, so would not create problems with the uneven wear unless you ran then down to bare metal..

I've got one vote for using this fa Italia.. any other agreeing? I am putting the clutch back together in an hour so I'm gonna think about it until then and see how i feel when i get to it.

Not something I had considered but you have the 96 cog. The centre is the same. Is only not touching half a plate. Its worth a try.
It's all trash when the cosa clutch comes

I guess it was only $22... And worth a shot for the few months I'll use it until i order the bgm clutch. So you've both convinced me to try it. That's my first task today.. Get this clutch back in with 22T and test run it. Second task is to get the malossi on pnp and start jetting that.

Just waiting on my ultrasonic cleaner to heat up to run these clutch parts through the cleaner (not the plates!) Before reassembly.

+1

I’ve put thousands of miles on mine without issue, and that’s what everyone that has upgraded has used. I have a similar setup and don’t plan on ever changing from stock really. Maybe I will toss a band on the basket for fun but don’t really care haha.

That little bit of overhang is minimal and worth the upgear!

Ohh and that’s with 2up 90% of the time, never a slip.

Took me all day to put the clutch back in and change the gear box oil, reconnect the clutch cable and put new malossi brake shoes on the rear tire cause it was extremely hot in garage and i had an hour and half distraction of Craigslist buyer come to pick up a bunch of film lights from me. So i did not do the top end yet. As soon as i got out on the scooter it started pouring out after hot and sunny all day!! Ha. So i did not get a chance to hit top speed or test it out much. But in the ten minutes i drove around the neighborhood i feel like the clutch is way stronger from the new plates and the gearing feels much more usable in that before i was in and out of gears so fast they were basically unusable except for maybe three and definitely 4th. Not sure the correct terminology, but I think the gears are longer now? Meaning now i spend more time in each gear at higher speeds and lower rpm. Feels great!

Question about the malossi and gasket sealants... I figure to use gasket sealant on the base gasket, but the head has a metal gasket and a rubber gasket. I'm assuming do not use gasket sealant on the metal head gasket because it could degrade the integrity of the rubber gasket that goes on the head?

Any thoughts?

Bike runs so much better with this up geared clutch. Max speed on a slight decline is 62mph. avg max speed on flat ground is 58-60 at lower rpms now about 6300 instead of 6700. Overall the engine feels stronger and pulls throughout all the gears better and less peaky. Might be me imagining things but the engine I feel also sounds much stronger and steadier than it did before. All I did was replace the cork plates and upgear. I definitely think the clutch was mildly slipping before and I didn't realize it cause I used to have trouble getting out of neutral at red lights about 25% of the time. That is almost completely gone now. Also takeoff is less revvy and more smooth transition of power.

I will say that I have noticed a very slight reduction in the low end torque on inclines at low RPM, but completely manageable by making sure I am in around 3500 rpm before I start the climb.

I am very happy with this upgrade and wondering how much a difference a BGM cosa 2 reinforced clutch will create.

Good to hear. Seems like it's riding as it should for now.

The Cosa clutch will be exactly the same (but easier to pull) and will stay exactly the same. The 7 spring will rattle itself to pieces when you start adding more power and have a tendency to explode.

Gasket sealer on the base. Be sure the piston is flush at TDC or slightly under the top.

Got so frustrated with the stupid stella automatic not starting and stumping everything I tried today.. so I gave up on that and switched over to the 2 stroke stella. Pulled the stock cylinder off (after removing the studs.. what a pain to do while still in frame) and started prepping the malossi to go on. Couldn't get the new cudgeon pin into the new piston late tonight so I put everything down and walked away for the night. One possible surprise bonus tonight.. I measured the cylinder fins on the original LML and the new malossi where the auto start flywheel gear is and I think the malossi 166 head should work with auto start without any grinding. I forget the specific measurements but I believe the malossi was only a millimeter or two wider than the lml.

Photos of the cylinder progress...


Stock head removed..

stock lml cylinder

stock piston.. at least 9100 miles but probably a few thousand more than that..

stock piston.. at least 9100 miles but probably a few thousand more than that..

stock piston.. at least 9100 miles but probably a few thousand more than that..



stock crankshaft and lml case

at least 9100 miles but probably a few thousand more than that..

The LML 150 porting is so much better than the Vespa. No wonder yours goes better than the Vespa would. looking a little sooty, not sure it was running as well as you thought. Next time we can make a better job of it.
The 166 is going to be different but just bolted on will be not a lot faster. Faster but not so much.
If you leave the pin in the freezer it will go in easier. Put the clip in the clutch side before putting the pin in. Turn them after to seat them and the gap goes to the bottom.
Be careful with the cylinder studs. If you're not putting new ones in be sure the end that came out of the casing goes back in the casing. They stretch and the thread ends are not the same. I only ever take the studs out to change them. There is no other reason. If you drop the back of the engine down the cylinder slides off with the studs on.

Jack/Swiss - good stuff.
Headed down similar path for plug and play.
Tips and Swiss's postings on challenges super helpful.
Question: in the world of auto's, I was always taught that head studs had to be replaced - same with rod end studs - due to stretching.
Sounds like that is not strictly tru for vespa's?

Yeah it was still rich since i changed over from the be3 jetting back to the stock e3 jetting. I was last at 140/e3/96 and was still thinking the main needed to go down.. But was nervous about doing that because the stock jetting is 140/e3/94 so i felt it was confusing as with the upgraded exhaust i shouldn't be so close to stock. To mess with it further on that stock top end would have required buying probably another larger idle jet 48/140 (since everyone is in agreement on the idle jet thread that you stick to 140 when using 140 air corrector and that the air mix screw should be as close to 2 1/2 turns as possible). And in that case, i said screw it, I'll just put the malossi on and start over on the jetting with that instead of wasting more time jetting a top end that is just coming right off anyways.

So to summarize my observations with the SIP Road XL pipe on stock LML 150 top end.. I think it affected the idle jet way more than the main jet, as I was at least 2 maybe 3 or 4 idle jet sizes larger, but barely 1-2 main jets larger.

Last edited by swiss1939 on Wed May 29, 2019 4:23 am; edited 2 times in total