Vintage vespa with sidecar
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous123...8910...181920Next
Author Message
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Sun May 19, 2019 9:20 pm quote
Back yesterday.
Rain held me up a bit - good excuse to research other stuff "I need".
Got out this afternoon with new jetting.
Same 1 min WOT run - out, U turn, in.

Set up:
Air Corrector - 160
Atomizer - BE3

Main 102 = 40.19 MPH out, 40.17 MPH in
Main 100 = 45.6 MPH out, 41.7 MPH in
Main 98 = 44.6 MPH out, 39.21 MPH in

* took avg of top 3 speeds achieved - and did multiple runs. Should be pretty accurate.

Then put back in the old set up to compare in like conditions.
Air corrector - 250
Atomizer - E4

Main 105 = 42.11 MPH out, 40.89 in

That's a pretty meaningful upgrade with new jetting over best I could squeeze outa old set.
Main 100 not only ran faster top end - it was peppier through the middle.
Hats off to you guys for the input/hand holding!
Would have been weeks of blind search - settled for what I had managed - without it.
I want to go back and re-jet every vehicle I've ever worked on from my teens/20's.
you guys are awesome.
Mighty appreciated!

Idle jet was left at 48/160 = 3.33
Tried 55/160 = 2.9 felt boggy.
Perhaps smaller jump would be ok.
Still some room to play I suspect.
Great above 4MPH but first 5 feet still a little anemic on takeoff.
Really tempted to see how 45/160 = 3.5 feels - but little scared I am going to scorch my motor.
Thoughts? Risks?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Mon May 20, 2019 12:27 am quote
Nice results and just as expected

Now you're wondering what more an O tune would do.

For the pilot jet wind the tickover screw right in almost to maximum. Play with the trottle and see how it feels. Set the mixture screw to the fastest speed (2.5 turns for a Spaco with the correct pilot).
Rev the engine up high and catch it on the way down, with the throttle slightly open. Rich is fairly obvious (like you left the choke on) but lean will feel rough and boggy.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 461
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon May 20, 2019 12:41 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Nice results and just as expected

Now you're wondering what more an O tune would do.

For the pilot jet wind the tickover screw right in almost to maximum. Play with the trottle and see how it feels. Set the mixture screw to the fastest speed (2.5 turns for a Spaco with the correct pilot).
Rev the engine up high and catch it on the way down, with the throttle slightly open. Rich is fairly obvious (like you left the choke on) but lean will feel rough and boggy.
So is an O-tune cleaning up the factory ports and whatnot?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Mon May 20, 2019 1:12 pm quote
An O tune is a combination of making the engine fit together as it was supposed to be from the factory and a few modern idea enhancements to the original parts.

On my O tuned PX200 I have a SIP Road II, 262/26 carb and a thin ring piston but for me I still call this an O tune.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Mon May 20, 2019 8:56 pm quote
Ok folks - time to play your favorite game!
Spend! My! Money!



Otune is not for this season (editor's note - possible slight of hand - LA has no seasons).

Imagined oder of projects:
- Phase 1: Leaner sidecar frame build/R&D
- Phase 2: Elec high power motor swap in
- Phase 3: Ultimate cruiser 2stroke solution build

With tune of existing motor remaining continuous during phase I, until motor is pulled for elec option/ or exploded in fiery burn out due to poor decision making.
50/50...

Which is where you guys come in.
3-4 weeks ago, this thing could just barely hit 40mph with wind at my back.
Now will cruise there with a little more in it when I want it - hitting mid 40's on flats at WOT- hell - I occasionally even pass a car.

I'm betting there is more in this thing (see note above and odds of fiery burn-out) and everyone's invited to take a shot at spec'ing it up. My goal is to see it cruise at 45 and perhaps reach high 40's on occasion.

Rules of the game:
1. Not splitting cases.
2. Not removing motor from chassis.
3. Read rules 1 & 2.

Considerations for you to ponder:
- Torque is key with this set up.
- I can wind it all the way out in 3rd - but its the last little bit takes some time to wind up to.
- 4th lumbers. No where near red line at 45MPH. (I would give exact RPM if SIP speedo hadn't torched itself due to owner's poor decision making...)
- Little wimpy for first 5 feet - but 1st and second will already climb a tree once the bike gets moving over 5mph.
- Carb and intake were ported - but not ideally - reposted pics below.
- Current jetting is better than ever - but - very top/last 7.5% still feels a little lean - empty.
- I am on points and condenser 12V no battery - but I don't know how they accomplished.

Here are a few plug and play items I am considering - feel free to rain on them/ alter/ re-align/ confirm/ etc.

1. Optimize air in - try the Polini venturi kit. This motor loves to breath freely...
2. Go back and clean up the inlet under carb/ grind/ sand smooth/ replace gaskets. Worth it?
3. SIP road II exhaust? Different one?
4. 100/80 10 tires on sip tubeless - replaces 3.5-10 with slightly wider and shorter tire (16.3" or 399MM vs current 17" or 416MM) to shorten up 3rd and 4th.

Basically - bolt on an optimized intake and output, shorten up the gear ratios a hair - and re-jet when done.

Thoughts on approach and your list of favorite parts?
Fire when ready.

IMG_9785.jpg

IMG_9784.jpg

IMG_9781.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-05-02 at 12.10.54 PM.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-05-02 at 12.09.13 PM.jpg

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4871
Location: So Cal
Mon May 20, 2019 11:08 pm quote
Hereís my prescription:

1. If youíve got a 3-port, bolt on a cast iron Polini 177:

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/1020015/cylinder-polini-177-cc-3-ports-cast-iron-vespa-p125-150-gtr125-vnl2t-ts125-vnl3t-sprint150-veloce-vlb1t-0150001?number=1020015

If itís a 2-port, an alu Pinasco 177:

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/7676115/cylinder-pinasco-177-cc-2-ports-alloy-v2.0-vespa-sprint150-vlb1t-gt125-vnl2t-gl150-vla1t-super-vnb-vba-vbb?number=7676115

2. Add a SIP Road II or BGM Big Box Touring exhaust

3. Adjust jetting

4. Go!

No splitting of cases, no dropping of motor from chassis, no grinding or dremeling of anything. Total time, less than an afternoon, total cost ~ $500. Save the rest for your electric project.

Youíll have a dead reliable and well-proven set up that will instantly give you the improved torque, higher top speed, and better acceleration you want with a minimum of fuss.

Youíll pull hills and pass cars with new confidence and authority. Ride it like that for a while and see it what you think. If you like the tuning game, thereís more that can be done downstream.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Tue May 21, 2019 5:06 am quote
Whatever you do you'll need a box type exhaust.

You'll need to split eventually but should wait until there is a bigger reason.

The cylinder and head is where the biggest gains are.so a Kit is an easy option but you sort of get what you're given. The torque rpm is where they decided and even touring biased kits rev higher. And are peakier than stock.
For the money and the science going at the 150 with a dremel, if done near correctly. Will give better results for your needs, with less cost and more satisfaction.

That's the case for having a go and maybe ruining a 150 that would be scrap anyway if you got a Kit.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Tue May 21, 2019 9:21 am quote
Damn - ya'll are good at this game.
Like it.
A lot!

I actually see cross over on SoCal's and Jack's input - aligns with my grand scheme as well. Three birds...

- Could do the cylinder in an afternoon approach - very cool.
- No reason I couldn't use same parts for next steps as well - once I run through this batch of heroin - and I want to move to mainlining instead of snorting.

Good people at SIP credited me a new speedo - so I wanna place my order through them in one fell swoop - rather than SC.

Believe the first link is the right one - and second link has spacer that would close my third port = wrong one?

First:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=14000800

Second:
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=14000890 (think maybe just different spacer to close

Questions:

- Would prefer to squeeze what I can outa my 20/20 carb and some jets and not replace. Reasonable?

- Assuming yes - might as well grab any key parts in same order. Wild guess on jetting for 20/20 with Sip Road II & Polini 177 Cyl?
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 461
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue May 21, 2019 1:13 pm quote
Why donít you O-tune what you have while you search for a P200? 2 steps to get you to where you need without spending twice. Plus opens up options. Like wide tyres and whatnot...

Perhaps you could upgrade the carb to something that you could use later anyway. I donít know if that is possible, but would a 24/24 work with your O-tuned 150?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Tue May 21, 2019 6:50 pm quote
"Why donít you O-tune what you have while you search for a P200?"

Et tu?

I liked SoCal's prescription:
- Adds bunch of torque and HP
- Reliable
- Bolts on in an afternoon - leaves me to focus time on side car frame innovation.

That last point is key right now.
Actually, come to think of it, they all are.
I don't want a bunch of down time - O tune is not for now.
I want to be able to cruise and extend driving range.

That said, it looks like there is an upgraded version that is some kinda mix between SoCal's and Jacks 'scrip.
Same cyl, but optimized ports (probably not as optimized as Jack's).
Like mixing Crystal Meth with my Heroin!
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/main/base/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=14000870

The W5 version - paraphrased:
"the exhaust grows 2mm to the right and left, 1.5MM up and down, and is more square shaped. Piston windows enlarged. Boost channel more angled, and internal piston is polished."

My plan is to pay up the $150 to have the ported version to bolt on.
Add expansion chamber exhaust.
Perhaps slightly shorter tire (100/80's) to act like shorter gearing.
And a little innovation around the air inlet - 'cause those bellows restrict flow!

Q's for the crowd:
- Any reason the W5 version shouldn't be just as reliable as the standard Pol'177?
- Notes from SIP say "HD SI 20/20 105-110 are a must" for all Pollini 177. Can anyone decipher that into english?

Thanks!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue May 21, 2019 7:12 pm quote
I reckon there are a lot better choices out there before grandaddy Polini... don't think it's been updated since the 90's.

An expansion chamber will give you higher peak power than any other type of exhaust, and generally speaking works well with higher port timings. This is for the most part at the expense of mid range power and torque.

HD is main jet. Not sure what it is, but that's what it means.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Tue May 21, 2019 7:53 pm quote
Quote:
I reckon there are a lot better choices out there before grandaddy Polini... don't think it's been updated since the 90's.
Ha! Wish you would hold back less.
I'm not really bothered if its from the 90's.
Might be the best thing that decade had to offer.
My scoot is from the 60's.
Proven is good.
Quote:
An expansion chamber will give you higher peak power than any other type of exhaust, and generally speaking works well with higher port timings. This is for the most part at the expense of mid range power and torque.
Sip claims 2hp more from 4500-6000 rpm on the 200cc motors.
No idea if/how that translates to my spec.

But I am all about better if it checks the boxes.
Plug and play/reliability/torque/ 3port/ ...
Avoid tear down.
Wallet out.

Take your best shot!
Quote:
The W5 version - paraphrased:
"the exhaust grows 2mm to the right and left, 1.5MM up and down, and is more square shaped. Piston windows enlarged. Boost channel more angled, and internal piston is polished."
For the porting savvy: Assume HOW you port makes a difference. Is this more high end revs or is this power through the range stuff?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 22, 2019 3:10 am quote
A SIP road, Big Box Touring or perhaps the Polini Box will make max torque in the areas that you'll be driving your outfit. Hint: it's the 4500 - 5500 zone

I'm just going to leave this here...

BGM Reso und BB.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Wed May 22, 2019 4:18 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Plug and play/reliability/torque/ 3port/ ...
The reliability part is as much to do with carb set up and timing, as it is to do with who's kit you buy.

Worb5 products are usually higher end and peakier than their original versions. Wouldn't think this is appropriate for a sidecar. Not sure what kit is not aimed at more speed. I imagine a VBB/sidecar over 6000rpm which is about 60mph, is a scary place to be.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 256
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed May 22, 2019 5:53 am quote
I spent a couple of days riding a 177 BGM kit with (i think) a Sip Road, that Ginch built.

It was the first bike I rode after I all the work I did on my DR177. The DR177 was a big upgrade on the standard 3 port 150.

The BGM177 was the next step up. It was bulletproof, torquey, pulled like a train, and then happily wound out to almost 110kmph with my 200lbs plus a bag on the back. And... It held close to wot/wot for hours on end without overhearing. Thats on unported cases and the original carb. Really impressive ride. I ran at about 107kmph for 45 minutes without going over 325 degrees.

I now own 3 sip speedos. I also own 3 other CHT gauges. The text on the sip gauge is too damn small to read at speed or in traffic for monitoring cht, and there's no alarm feature.. Trail Tech gauges are cheap as chips, big enough to read, and let you set an an overtemp alarm.

Cast iron is nice if you plan to blow it up and then rebuild it. Alloy is faster to build, and plenty tough if jetted right and monitored (and it run in faster!). For the price, modern alloy cylinders offer so much more bang for the buck...

If I was looking for a gateway drug that would let me bolt on a cylinder and exhaust, do some jetting but no porting, and just go, I'd ask Ginch about that motor...
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4871
Location: So Cal
Wed May 22, 2019 6:20 am quote
Game on.

D0AB78D9-9AC3-4F41-B6E4-B1C089A06457.png

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Wed May 22, 2019 8:20 am quote
Ha! - good stuff!
Appears the lads from down under are BGM fans.

Couple comments and a correction.
Correction first.
Have been planning a SIP Road II - but referred to it incorrectly as an "expansion chamber" in prior post.
Which is likely the reason Ginch spit out his morning coffee and began communicating only in pictures to me...
SoCal now responding in kind.
Caused a chuckle.

Now that that's all cleared up...
I'm 'cited about some bolt on HP!
Quote:
I spent a couple of days riding a 177 BGM kit
Thanks! Just the sort of experience I was hunting for.
Matches SoCal's equally robust experience with Polini cyl.
Expected some different opinions - take em all!
Quote:
The BGM177 was the next step up.
That note not missed on me. Tks.
Quote:
I'd ask Ginch about that motor...
I keep trying - but he's so flabbergasted about my "expansion chamber" all I am getting is pictures and hieroglyphics.

Ginch - what would your optimal set of bolt on components be?
Quote:
Worb5 products are usually higher end and peakier than their original versions. Wouldn't think this is appropriate for a sidecar. Not sure what kit is not aimed at more speed. I imagine a VBB/sidecar over 6000rpm which is about 60mph, is a scary place to be
I've gotten some sage advice from Aerochip and SoCal on gearing. Have poor man's version with shorter tire in the mix for this upgrade - with plan for one less cog on clutch as back up/next step to give it some off the line oomph.

Will say this. As I have improved set up, this thing has gotten way way more stable at speed - but I am not planning on driving around at 60.... too much... :-)

Kidding aside. Much appreciate the opinions and feedback.
Helping me sharpen my direction.
Invaluable.
Thanks!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 22, 2019 2:09 pm quote


Clipboard01.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Wed May 22, 2019 2:20 pm quote
Clear.
Thanks.
Why didn't you just say so the first time I asked?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 22, 2019 2:46 pm quote
There's nothing wrong as such with the Polini, it's been around for years and years. Just there's been plenty of development in those years (which I always find amazing for a smaller and smaller market) such that the number of 177 kits available is staggering - here's a list that was current a couple of years ago and there have been a few new ones since! The big 177 rundown

A good friend said he had a string of Polini's when he was young living in Germany. When he moved here and got back into scootering, he bought a Parmakit 177 (not sure which particular model) on the strength that it had almost the same porting as the Polini but was in aluminum... anyway he wanted everyone to have one, said it was heaps better.
I really like the BGM. I really like that you can just bang it on an untouched 150 motor and get beyond P200 power. I really like that for LML or ported cases there is very little work to open up the transfers to full size (they have a thin casting around the transfers that is 150 sized, but open underneath). The head design has a proper squish band like you'd find on any modern 2 stroke... it couldn't be mistaken for an ashtray. It has a separate location to mount your cht that is not under the plug.
It has fairly modest port timings and makes good torque... all of the figures are available as well.

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/bgm1770n/cylinder-bgm-pro-177/187-cc-vespa-px125-px150-cosa125-cosa150-gtr125-ts125-sprint-veloce-vlb1t-0150001

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Wed May 22, 2019 5:55 pm quote
Ginch - Thanks for that!
The hieroglyphics were pretty spectacular as well.
Thank god there were no eggplants or peaches involved.
Though that arm and hand made me a little uneasy.
Just saying.

Looks like I have a couple great choices at hand.
Appreciate the input from all.
Time to open a beverage and do a little online shopping.
Psyched about the quality of bolt on power options!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 22, 2019 6:45 pm quote
Charlieman, the one that I know nothing at about at this point is the Malossi Sport 177. I have a 221 version of this and it's great, super torquey. It's a given that the quality will be the best among it's peers, but I just don't have figures or anything anecdotally yet. Have tried the MHR version which is amazing. The downside of the Malossi's is they're not really designed to just bolt on in the way the BGM is...

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/m3118005/cylinder-malossi-sport-177cc-3-transfer-ports-57mm-stroke-single-exhaust-port-vespa-px125-px150-cosa125-cosa150-gtr125-ts125-sprint-veloce-vlb1t-0150001
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Wed May 22, 2019 8:24 pm quote
Thanks brother.
Malossi, Polini, Felini - great directors - love their work.

Did a little reading.
Best I can tell - the Malossi calls for some case shaping to match ports.
Not outa the question - but...

As much as I hate to admit it, that extra little bit of punch might be lost on me.
It's like having your first Guiness at the pub next to the brewery in Dublin rather than at some pub in London.
Is it creamier? Sure it is!
Am I going to be knocked out by either one? Probably.
Best guess - when I am puking my late night curry in the drain - i'm not sure it will matter.

I like the Polini for its rugedness.
I like the BGM for its promise of low torque and refinement.
But I think I'm gonna steer clear of dragging out the dremel on this one.

I think...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Wed May 22, 2019 9:03 pm quote
Seems like your going down the kit route. Like with any gateway drug, this will start a chain of events and a roller coaster of emotion throughout the coming months.

As you say, whatever kit you buy will have way more top end power than the stock 150. Once set up to not get hotter and hotter until they pop, reliability of the kit itself will be fine.
Don't over concern yourself with matching the casings, this is not essential and will work just fine un-cut.

Modern ally kit is usually the best choice. A single exhaust port will give more torque. The Malossi Sport 177 Ginch suggested is both of these and I think if you have to have one, then this is the one.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu May 23, 2019 12:31 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
As much as I hate to admit it, that extra little bit of punch might be lost on me.
It's like having your first Guiness at the pub next to the brewery in Dublin rather than at some pub in London.
This sounds a bit like the guy who would be happy if he could just go a bit faster. It's unfortunate that it tends to hold true (if you're a tinkerer, and I feel I know you well enough now to say that's a 'yes') no matter what you do, always just a bit faster.
A friend said to me when I was considering my first kit "just think about where you want to end up and go straight there". At the time I was in the "just a bit faster" phase and so went through all the steps.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4871
Location: So Cal
Thu May 23, 2019 10:22 am quote
Getting a chuckle imagining Chaz tearing around the hood on his rocket hack. Standby for vid of him dragging a knee thru Mulholland ...

Yeah, forget kits, forget o tuning, skip all the baby-step-bolt-on-nonsense.

Listen to Ginchís friend. Go straight for the gold. Trim the leggys, cut the indicators off the panels, trim the arse, paint it black n get some drops on the bugger. Avoid all the intermediate bs.

Better yet, just have Scooter & Service build you a custom 30hp beast. You know you want one. Youíre going to end up spending that much eventually. Might as well do it all at once.

https://www.scooter-and-service.de/shop/superlow-series-konfigurator?c=925

The BGM is a fine kit and Iím sure BGM has worked most of the bugs out of it by now. Whether itís ďbetterĒ for your needs than another comparably priced kit, I donít know. Kit threads are like oil threads. You might as well ask if Motul is better than Amsoil or Redline. Everybody has their favorites and somebody always has a horror story about somebody who totally ruined their engine using something.

I agree with Jack, in most cases the way a kit is put on and run is probably the biggest factor in reliability.

I donít think youíve been given any bad choices. Just keep in mind your end game ... youíll have fun and learn something whatever direction you go.

Last edited by SoCalGuy on Thu May 23, 2019 10:49 am; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1283
Location: Florence, OR
Thu May 23, 2019 10:34 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Best guess - when I am puking my late night curry in the drain - I'm not sure it will matter.
I almost spit my coffee everywhere at this! What a crack up. Well, not that funny, but it just struck me as funny. Maybe because I've been there a time....or two...
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 23, 2019 11:32 am quote
Oh no - its funny as hell.
The moment when Ginch posted hieroglyphics was a show stopper.
SoCal's game on was a mighty nice touch as well.
I don't know why I even bother to type - reading is so much better.

I've got a direction - parts are in the shopping cart(s) - but I am allowing it to percolate for the afternoon as I assemble total buy list and fill in the gaps.

Meanwhile - doing some research that I actually get paid for - also important.

Cheers ya'll!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 23, 2019 4:51 pm quote
(Jeopardy theme playing in background).

Quick run through safety check as I prep my order.
Cotter pins, nuts, bearings, etc.

Motor mounts:
Mine have seen better days.
Read up on options.
Seems this one too has been beaten to death.
At this point, in honor of Bitza, I quote from his summary of the discussion:
Quote:
ive got clauss engine mounts n i wish i hadnt ..... it vibrates like that toy ya lass has in her pants drawer ...
So... guess those are out.
Videos on replacing originals include images like below...
Looks like a royal PIA - made worse if case is not torn down.

Looking for a little quick inspiration.
Is there a simple to install - doesn't vibrate your teeth out option?
Or is consensus now to just buy orig?

Screen Shot 2019-05-23 at 5.39.12 PM.jpg
Two guys, a square tube, and some kinda GS starter cog. Seriously?

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7044
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu May 23, 2019 7:06 pm quote
Good call on leaving the cart for a while... you ALWAYS forget something.

Sometimes you can walk out the engine mounts with a big screwdriver and using a sort of stirring motion. If they're stuck then drill the rubber until the screwdriver works.
Use dishwashing liquid or rubber grease to ease the new ones in... a long clamp or allthread is handy. When the metal tubes touch in the middle you may need a socket directly on the rubber itself, then your clamp again.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 23, 2019 7:24 pm quote
Ginch,
As usual - you are a purveyor of pure gold...
When, of course, you are not dispensing reckless advice.
A certain GT6MK3 comment on direction and male sheep comes to mind.
Anyhow... I will take that direction as: go with original.
Done.

BTW - WTF is 1 degree vs 2 degree related to models?
IE: VBB1T 1į vs VBB1T 2į
If I google it I get some information on murder charges.
Suspect that is not what the designation in the SIP catalog stands for.

SIP offers different parts for 1į vs 2į
Trying to find the central tube part now that connects the rubber ends.
(For the record - I had to google search HTF to just type į.)
Officially in the weeds.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 23, 2019 7:29 pm quote
Quote:
When the metal tubes touch in the middle
re-read.
This sounds more like the modern mounts.
The ones I am seeing online are the single ones - where you have to buy a long metal tube (I think) that fits between them and is peened to hold on the ends.

Screen Shot 2019-05-23 at 8.28.09 PM.jpg
are you thinking of this style?

Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4871
Location: So Cal
Thu May 23, 2019 8:57 pm quote
The ďnew styleĒ replacement bushings donít use a long tube. Each side has its own short tube molded into the rubber.

I used these up front:

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rubber+engine+mounting+bushs+_17472630

This for the rear:

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rubber+engine+mounting+bush+_40316000
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 23, 2019 9:09 pm quote
thank u

Screen Shot 2019-05-23 at 10.06.08 PM.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Thu May 30, 2019 7:02 pm quote
Four stroking?
Guys - need your help.
Can you please have a good listen and give opinion.
Turn up volume if helpful.
4 stroking at WOT?
Thanks!

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 635
Location: california
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:09 pm quote
Right!
Wes Anderson homage/dry humor interlude over.
Time to move to matters at hand.

First off - much appreciate input from all on PNP options.
Given the 100+ options out there that Ginch compiled - you can imagine what its like to be new and trying to digest this German/Italian craziness.

Reader's digest version of status:
Polini 177 is tough and rugged iron horse. Lower exhaust port timings?
Malossi 177 is probably best of the modern offerings - perhaps edging out BMG in quality.

Spent week researching - networking a little with German tuner world.
What I heard:
1 - toughness for all the mistakes I will make - Polini iron.
2. Nicasil lining temperament to porting vs iron will be a pain to adjust.
3. Lower exhaust port timings benefit torque - Polini (not sure this is accurate)
4. Angle of port ceilings - flatter - helps focus on torque as well (not enough info to determine what cyl is best in this category for my needs).

Add that too:
- Ginch made the point about not putting time and money in to something that isn't gonna fit the bill in the end.
- Jack made the point that the pre-tuned options - like Worb5 are likely peaky (confirmed that to be true with the Worb5 tuner).
- SoCal noted that he has gotten great/tough/reliable results with the Polini bolted on.

That is some pretty damn good advice in total.
all of it.

Learned that Worb 5 likes to use the Polini on sidecar projects for its toughness - along with the GS piston and rings - and their own recipe for torquiness.

Robbed this quote from Jack on Swiss's thread:
Quote:
Knowing what works for scooters takes time and experience and most tuners won't tell the whole story.
Indeed - getting specifics is a challenge - though in fairness - for guys that sell their time - reasonable for them to hold their cards close to their chest.

My move is to put the exhaust and tubeless on to start the process
They are on the way - along with a broad assortment of recklessly purchased additional items.

Im planning on adding a Polini cyl - but trying to garner some insights on how to optimize it for lower power band. Welcome input there on what alterations would lead to lower power band. - and if I've missed it - and its already there in the Polini as a bolt on - please rattle my cage.

Editor's note - you can add tire installation on SIP site by searing the term "Workmanship". 1 unit for ea. mounting @ 15 euro. It works so well - you might buy two sets... trust me.
Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 973
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:24 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
My move is to put the exhaust and tubeless on to start the process
They are on the way - along with a broad assortment of recklessly purchased additional items.
Exhaust definitely helps out a bit. Also you'd be surprised how much tubeless rims/tires help out in the comfort/smoothness of your ride at higher speeds. I didn't think it would be so noticeable until I threw them on. at 60mph my scoot with tube type tires felt like everything was going to fall apart. Tubeless tires on there now and its pretty damn smooth and a lot more confidence in what you are riding on at that speed!

Kinda skipped to the last page on this enormous thread, but did you change your clutch at all? I know an upgear might ruin your torque, but that little change also really smoothed out my ride! If you are spending money, its not too expensive and can be done in probably half an hour to an hour. I like to take my time so it took me a couple days since I needed to order new plates.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1729

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:14 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
charlieman22 wrote:
My move is to put the exhaust and tubeless on to start the process
They are on the way - along with a broad assortment of recklessly purchased additional items.
Exhaust definitely helps out a bit. Also you'd be surprised how much tubeless rims/tires help out in the comfort/smoothness of your ride at higher speeds. I didn't think it would be so noticeable until I threw them on. at 60mph my scoot with tube type tires felt like everything was going to fall apart. Tubeless tires on there now and its pretty damn smooth and a lot more confidence in what you are riding on at that speed!
I'll thow in my experience with the tubelss. I've clocked in many (fast) miles on tubeless and the standard split rim. I have never noticed much if any difference on the comfort/smoothness between the two...and that's at real high speeds. But, where i noticed a huge amount of smoothness difference was when changing between tires. I've run Heidenau K68's back to back with a Conti Zippy 1, and it felt (and sounded) like the heidi's were a big mud terrain tires or something. The Dunlop TT92 race slicks were even a smoother ride yet. Needless to say i probably won't be buying another set of Heidenau tires anytime soon again.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1459
Location: London UK
Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:48 am quote
I think a sound choice. Iron Polini 177 will work out fine pulling a sidecar. Difficult to damage and virtually idiot proof.

Big question is, do you need the 125 euro thin ring GS piston or not? They will allow a slightly wider exhaust port, which is good. The thicker polini rings will work ok though but don't like high compression (>12:1) or sustained higher rpm (7500+). As there is little danger of either of these being an issue, maybe spend the money on a 26/26 carb.

You'll need to to do some light Dremel work to get the torque right up to max but will be interesting for all.

Exhaust I guess will be some box type. You know your gear ratios? Not sure if you mentioned it before but with the 10 inch wheel it might matter.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 461
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:59 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I've run Heidenau K68's back to back with a Conti Zippy 1, and it felt (and sounded) like the heidi's were a big mud terrain tires or something. The Dunlop TT92 race slicks were even a smoother ride yet. Needless to say i probably won't be buying another set of Heidenau tires anytime soon again.
Did you mean K58? K68s donít exist (anymore... discontinued). K58s are a big mud terrain tyre. Best rated. Best in the wet. But yeah... bit noisy. Like thatís a problem on a 2 stroke scooter?

https://www.tyres-pneus-online.co.uk/test/motorcycle-tyre/scooter.html
Your Rally Here   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous123...8910...181920Next
[ Time: 0.2130s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0453s) ][ Debug on ]