Little help: motor busHing replacement
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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:50 am quote
Folks - working in the garage t'day.
Engine had play at mounts so am replacing.
- Was surprised to find mount rubber - appears ok - but play exists between bolt and mount steel inner tube.
- Was more surprised to find similar movement in new kit?

Looking for some experienced opinion.
does this look normal to you?
Any tricks used to give more precision fit?
Other?


Existing mount:
New mount:
Thanks!
-CM

Last edited by charlieman22 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1578
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:36 am quote
Bolt looks wrong to me...
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4864
Location: So Cal
Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:14 am quote
Yup wrong bolt
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:43 pm quote
Thanks guys!
I wanna agree with you.
"The old one" I show is the bolt that was used with the existing mounts.
The new one I show - is the new bolt with new mounts.
That bolt came with the new mounts - in a sealed pouch packaged together.


But I agree - I am unhappy with the fit.
Really poor in my view.

Guess I will install and then look for slightly oversized bolt to replace this one with. bizarre.

Appreciate the quick input.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1273
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:50 pm quote
Yeah, way too much play. But you know that already.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1578
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:05 pm quote
What's the inside diameter of the bushings and that of the bolt??
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:14 pm quote
Safis - thanks - see below.
Decided not to insert them - just doesn't seem right.

IMG_0317.JPG
Both new and old bolt measure at 14mm (I can get slightly under if I squeeze caliper harder - but they are close to 14mm

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:17 pm quote
Safis - thanks - see below.
Decided not to insert them - just doesn't seem right.
That MM of difference feels like a lot of wobble - I would have expected a tighter tolerance?

IMG_0317.JPG
Both new and old bolt measure 13.98 - 14mm (I can get slightly under if I squeeze caliper harder - but they are close to 14mm

IMG_0311.JPG
Old mount tube ID is ~ 15MM

IMG_0309.JPG
New mount ID is ~15MM

Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2933
Location: Bangkok
Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:13 pm quote
It swivels? Correct. Maybe the space is for grease?

But yes 0.5 each side seems a bit much. 0.15 mm OK

Obviously you need a 15mm bolt but that is not generally a standard size..

Last resort? Take calipers to Home Pro/depot see if they have any 0.4/0.5 stainless sheet? Piece of galvanized heating ductwork?
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:31 pm quote
All I can say is I didn't measure anything... and that worked for me. I think...
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:02 pm quote
Quote:
All I can say is I didn't measure anything... and that worked for me. I think...
Chuckle - indeed.
I tore it down because I could jiggle the wheel and get significant movement due to play in the bushing. Assumed it was a bad busing - turned out to be play between tube and bolt.
Bought new set up - had same amount of play.
Quote:
Last resort? Take calipers to Home Pro/depot see if they have any 0.4/0.5 stainless sheet? Piece of galvanized heating ductwork?
Hoping someone is making a tighter tolerance fit - but I hear ya - I'm pretty sure that's why they make coke cans so thin - and it's nota bad idea! thanks.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2933
Location: Bangkok
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:13 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Hoping someone is making a tighter tolerance fit - but I hear ya - I'm pretty sure that's why they make coke cans so thin - and it's nota bad idea! thanks.
I wouldn't use coke cans. Coke cans are aluminum and softer than the bolt or tube and will eventually deform or wear out. But an old steel oil can?

But yes we are thinking along the same lines.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2933
Location: Bangkok
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:24 pm quote
I still think the coke can approach but there is Loctite 660. It says max gap 0.5mm.
Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 1273
Location: Florence, OR
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:27 pm quote
Tuna Cans! Much sturdier than a coke can. Or the cans you can buy for home canning. Just a thought...
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
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Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:09 am quote
Damn those S.E.A. parts!
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1578
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:28 am quote
Since the bolt is 14mm, it's the correct size. Something's fishy with the bushings...
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:27 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Since the bolt is 14mm, it's the correct size. Something's fishy with the bushings...
Yup. Looks that way.
Was surprised to find clear urathane inserts used for existing as upgrade.

Guys who built the bike likely were accounting for heavier loads. Have read horrible things about unwanted vibration from some users of urathane in the past.
These were quite nice though.

Looks like SIP caries something similar. Wonder what kind of vibration compromise of any.

Anyone try these or others they like?

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/touch/Details.aspx?ProductNumber=17472620#Recommendations

IMG_0318.JPG

Hooked
2001 LML 150
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 315
Location: Melb, Aus
Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:29 pm quote
Sorry. I deleted my post.. I was on the wrong track

Last edited by Philos on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4864
Location: So Cal
Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:52 pm quote
If your old center bolt was 15mm, the holes in the frame it passes through must also be 15mm. So even if you get bushings with 14mm tubes, there is potential 1mm slop where the center bolt passes through the openings in the frame. Seems to me thatís not an ideal situation. Maybe you should just try to chase down a 15mm center bolt. 15mm = approx. 19/32
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:54 am quote
Havenít looked in the manuals or measured anything... but looking at the specs on new parts: the large frame bolts are M14 and the mount inner diameters are listed as 15mm. Seems like thatís how itís meant to be?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:55 am quote
Philos - had read your post and think actually you were on right track. Thanks.

SoCal - as usual - very helpful. If I want a snugger fit - bolt options seem best manner provided they fit frame holes. Now just have to find one...

Pheas' - thanks for the sluethy research ! Confirms what supplier told me. Helpful.

I checked with supplier. They are aware of the gap - and shim it for race applications.

For my situation, where a small change in rear wheel attitude can be exacerbated by the weight of side car - is like to tighten up the play.

I will double check frame hole condition and look for a bolt that is closer to net fit. Little surprised others haven't experienced the left right movement by jiggling unweighted rear wheel. Maybe I have second condition.

Will post outcome and improvement on my thread.

Thanks all!

--CM
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2210
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:26 am quote
I had a moment on the way out of the house this morning so I checked out a spare Clauss bushing I had in a drawer. 14.23mm internal diameter on it, which was what I would have expected.

IMG_20190611_070850.jpg

Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
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Location: california
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:01 pm quote
Hey Chandlerman. Thanks!
Interesting.
As those are a "performance" bushing, it looks like they net sized the ID much closer to the bolt OD. Makes sense.

Did you ever run with those in? From what I read - lots of complaints of vibration - though not sure what generation or if all Clauss were the same.

I am trying to find a bolt that comes in 15MM or 19/32 - short search today without much luck - but just started.

Suspect many who are reading this would be surprised at how much play they get at their back wheel when unloaded and moved side to side.

Also suspect the bolt to tube tolerance varies by manufacturer.
Ironically - the kit I got was out of stock at many places and determined a "grade A" repair by SIP...

Slightly oversized bolt seems a good option - for an otherwise quality bushing set.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2933
Location: Bangkok
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:39 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
I am trying to find a bolt that comes in 15MM or 19/32 - short search today without much luck - but just started.

Is it feasible for you to do it the SIP way and have a piece of 15mm stock with threaded holes and two bolts for securing?

If there is anyone near you with a lathe.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/230mm-Long-15mm-Stainless-Steel-Round-Bar-Stock-Rod-Silver-Tone-/141065588421
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2210
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:02 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Hey Chandlerman. Thanks!
Interesting.
As those are a "performance" bushing, it looks like they net sized the ID much closer to the bolt OD. Makes sense.

Did you ever run with those in? From what I read - lots of complaints of vibration - though not sure what generation or if all Clauss were the same.
.
I run the Claus's mounts in both my Stella and my Sprint. I have stock (rubber) mounts in my VBB and don't notice a difference between them, vibration-wise.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 pm quote
Wow.
Lotta good input u guys.
One more piece of the bike I better understand.
Very much appreciated.
Traveling - will get back to what's important by next week.
Update then.
-CM
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7034
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:44 am quote
For some reason the more solid mounts don't seem to be an issue in a P. They definitely do in earlier models.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2210
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:01 am quote
Ginch wrote:
For some reason the more solid mounts don't seem to be an issue in a P. They definitely do in earlier models.
Maybe it has to do with the weight of the bike. Stock, the Stella's dry weight is about 240lbs, whereas the Sprint and VBB are both under 200lbs. The Stella also has a lot of sound deadening material throughout, which would also help absorb small vibrations. The Sprint and VBB, on the other hand, have no deadening material.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4864
Location: So Cal
Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:57 am quote
My 2 pesos: The fit of the center bolt makes a big difference. Itís not just the bushing that get worn. Over time the tube(s) get ovaled. The more play there is between the tube and the bolt, the more vibration gets transferred. Tighter is better.

Charlieman is right, tube tolerance definitely varies by manufacturer. Donít know about Clauss mounts, but have these on one of my scoots. The inner diameter is 14.3mm - nice n snug on a 14mm bolt.

https://sip-scootershop.com/en/products/rubber+engine+mounting+bushs+_17472630

Thinking out loud nowÖ instead of - or maybe in addition to - a single center bolt, wonder if mounts that independently bolted to each side would work.... never seen any but can see some possible advantages.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 626
Location: california
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:17 am quote
So I figured I would post the outcome on this one.
Since the first set of mounts had same play as the ones I took off, I set them aside.
Bought a fancy second set from BMG.
Found they too had nearly same amount of play.
Also - use a plastic ring to help center - not such a fan - wonder how that will be after 1000 miles of hot hard riding...

So - I took y'alls advice - or something like it.
Bought a steel vent pipe at Home Depot and made some round shims figuring - might as well try it.
Kinda shocked how well it worked.
This was the test set - I managed to make a little cleaner one once I realized it was actually going to work.

Bolt now goes through with tube with some drag - but zero perceptible rattle or play. Roundness of bolt helps create nice round shape of shim once it is inserted.

Greased and installed - expect this will last without any additional wear large flat surfaces touching each other in sheer - but I will keep an eye over time.

Next time you have your back wheel up in the air (intentionally...) grab it and see how much side to side play you have. You might be surprised by how much exists. May be more important in my sidecar set up then std - but as I am focused on reducing play at all of the suspension and connection points between bike and sidecar, I'm happy with results.

Thanks for the suggestions!

IMG_0380.JPG
Cut and roughly shaped using bolt as anvil

IMG_0381.JPG
Cut on first round wasn't pretty - but mostly effective at making template and testing

IMG_0384.JPG
Inserted and tapped in to place. at this point - I inserted the bolt and as it tapped in, the shim took a nice final shape inside the tube. Head of bolt drove shim the rest of the way in.

IMG_0385.JPG
Inserted shim with bolt removed. About .02 MM clearance all the way around. Once on bike - no perceptible play at all. No squeak or noise.

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