Stator experts - can you solve? ... SOLVED
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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:56 pm quote
The patient:
62 VBB, 150.
Points. Condenser. No battery.
Seen some time in Indonesia - where she learned a trick or two - it's true - but generally build quality is very solid.

Situation: Bike running fine. Tested some LED AC light bulbs in tail and brake. Were great - for about 1 minute - then faded and went out.
Replaced with old incandescent. Seemed to work - but - noted headlight out.
Then tested horn - whisper of a sound comes from it - barely getting power.
Put multi meter on junction box at motor.
Sure enough - very low power at junction box.
Coil and horn getting 6 or 7 volts - used to be twice that.
Lights and brake light power read 1/2 that at 2-3 volts max.
This is at 2000+rpm.

Stator appears to be putting out low/half power - suddenly.

Receipts/paper work with scoot when purchased read:
- "New ignition coil set, Piaggio #5/156357"
- "New brake light switch"
- "Upgraded to 12 volt system"

All bulbs including headlight are 12V - and have operated fine until now.
Unhooked stator wires at junction box and used 12v battery to power wiring harness.

- Horn back to wailing - full power.
- Tail and brake lights - both work great.
- Headlight - is getting power in to switch - but does not seem to transfer power to output wires going to lights.
- Weidly - I can measure continuity between power input on switch and output to lights - but even with battery can not measure any power crossing that circuit on switch (only continuity). Weird.

Pulled stator - see pics below.


Questions:
1. Is there a means to test the coils with resistance/continuity? Have struggled to find the values or methods online.
2. Do the two coils wired in series not represent 12V? If yes - its a lot like one of them is dead (half voltage). How do you tell if it is a 12V or 6V?
3. Some goop leaking out of a few of them - maybe this is normal?
4. Cloth covered wires are glazed and stiff - normal?
5. Just to throw it out there - Is it feasible my handlebar switch is damaged and my stator is ok - would that give me low readings at the junction box?

elec box.jpg
harness I am holding goest to brake and running light on sidecar. - tie in to brake and running lights circuits on scoot.

IMG_0591.JPG
coil on rt is yellow and aqua colored wires. feed two lighting circuits. coil at 7:00 feeds horn circuit. Ignition coil is at 10:00

IMG_0605.JPG

IMG_0608.JPG

IMG_0609.JPG



Last edited by charlieman22 on Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1581
Location: London UK
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:28 pm quote
I know little about the stators on these old crates but sounds like there is a short circuit somewhere. Either one of these stator coils or one of the light bulbs/switches?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:37 am quote
Pint worthy stab - that's for certain. Cheers Jack.

Will do one more extra tidy re-assembly - leave the side car connections off - and see if it will even start (immediately after the bulb incident, starting required a ginger 30 second throttle feathering miracle of single firing before it catches a few fires in a row and hits a high enough rev to fire up properly.)

Any other electrical gurus out there with a strategy I should try to identify the issue at hand (low voltage output)?

Thanks all.
- CM
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:24 pm quote
Inspected stator - visual was all I really had to go on - was not able to find any confirmed ways to take readings - or know what those readings were supposed to be.

Wire covers on stator connecting coils we glazed from heat. Perhaps normal - perhaps signs of a scorching. No visible signs of broken wires. Very gently moved them around to see if any seemed broken - none did.
Figured if it got worse - would be a sign I had a bad or broken wire undetected.

Reassembled - taking care to ensure no shorts and clean connections.
Left side car harness off of junction box - to simplify.

Bike started second kick.
No feathering of throttle - no fussing.

Tested output.
Interestingly - no power at any but the ignition coil output.
I officially have dead stator coil(s).

Looks like it's time to get the electronic ignition kit.

FullSizeRender.jpg
Older photo - used to show power outage. On positve note - getting full power from the ignition coil - so if I don't mind driving around in the dark...

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1856

Thu Jun 27, 2019 12:38 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Inspected stator - visual was all I really had to go on - was not able to find any confirmed ways to take readings - or know what those readings were supposed to be.

Wire covers on stator connecting coils we glazed from heat. Perhaps normal - perhaps signs of a scorching. No visible signs of broken wires. Very gently moved them around to see if any seemed broken - none did.
Figured if it got worse - would be a sign I had a bad or broken wire undetected.

Reassembled - taking care to ensure no shorts and clean connections.
Left side car harness off of junction box - to simplify.

Bike started second kick.
No feathering of throttle - no fussing.

Tested output.
Interestingly - no power at any but the ignition coil output.
I officially have dead stator coil(s).

Looks like it's time to get the electronic ignition kit.
Well, if you get the DC version of the SIP VAP electronic ignition, your plans for adding LEDs would be simplified.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3306
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:09 pm quote
Those demand supplying stators still confuse me but did you have bulbs installed the second time when you tested for AC voltage? Add one and see if you magically get voltage.

Additionally, try cleaning and reinstalling your handlebar switch. Those notoriously have problems and can cause voltage issues.
Hooked
59" Allstate
Joined: 03 Aug 2018
Posts: 189
Location: TC Florida
Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:07 pm quote
I just went thru a similar situation on my VBB ( 6v system ) and if i recall correctly nothing seem to Jive until i had everything hooked up and bulbs in place, once the circuit was complete I had understandable voltage readings on my meter.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:12 pm quote
MJ - Thanks for weighing in brother. Much appreciated.
I ran your test
- First put 12V on system rear lights r xmas tree like - horn is loud.
- Then re-hooked up stator.

I got 7-8 volts at idle from the ignition coil.
Then up to 17V+ when I revved it.
Editor's note: neighbors loving me.

Close to absolutely nothing with rev at all other lighting coils.
Then took for drive.
At about 2500-3000 RPM, there was almost an audible horn sound - but it was pathetic. Couldn't make it repeat a minute later.

Would not doubt the switch is bad - in fact - have some suspicion it is - but when I put the 12V to the system - horn blares and lights light.

Have a new switch on the way - this one is suspect from testing.
Did what I could to clean - but all pressed together makes it tough.

Will post up the results when I get it.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Thu Jun 27, 2019 3:53 pm quote
FatAmy wrote:
I just went thru a similar situation on my VBB ( 6v system ) and if i recall correctly nothing seem to Jive until i had everything hooked up and bulbs in place, once the circuit was complete I had understandable voltage readings on my meter.
hadn't seen this.
I'd give anything to eat lunch at the Vespa commissary in mid 60's.
First - cause it was probably delicious and I'm kinda hungry right now.
Second - caus ethose guys must have served wine and come up with the balanced system idea afterwards.

Can u imagine being in some small town in sisily and have a bulb blow in 1963? U'd b f'd!


Kidding aside.
When new switch in - and all bulbs mounted - I will test and post to c what we get.

Thanks for weighing in.
Ossessionato
LXV 150 3v ie. Midnight Blue (Sold)
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Hooked
1960 Series 2 Lambretta, 1962ish API series 2 Lambretta, 1974 Vespa Super 150, 1978 Rally 200, 1965 Allstate VNB
Joined: 18 Mar 2008
Posts: 260
Location: Eau Claire, Wisconsin
Thu Jun 27, 2019 4:52 pm quote
I'm curious if anybody here has ever gotten the balanced system to function -- as it was intended to work -- for any real length of time. (My personal best is roughly two weeks.)

I'm of the belief that back in the day they just ran around with no/some lights or modified the system.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4906
Location: So Cal
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:54 pm quote
Good one, mike. Thatís a nice troubleshooting guide.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:58 pm quote
WaspMike - thanks - that was right along the lines of what I was looking for.
Gives me some basic tools to test with.
Nice find.

Gathered lots of good info from the crowd.
Number of posters noted the finicky nature of the switch - and the balanced system's demand to have everything hooked up.
Think I can combine it to do some testing.
Gonna have a careful look at the harness as well.
It's fairly new - but those LED's were plenty hot when I pulled them out...
Wonder if any wires got fried along the way...
Hooked
Joined: 25 Aug 2010
Posts: 401
Location: United Kingdom
Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:57 am quote
It's not an "Arsscoot.com" restored bike, by any chance?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:03 am quote
Fire - yes it is.
It's story is here:
Vintage vespa with sidecar

SHort version: found in warehouse after sitting for ~ 8-10 yrs.

Indo bike - so I knew what I was getting into.

That said - repeatedly impressed with my finds as I have torn it down for upgrades.

Original matched cases - third port added cleanly. Intake and airbox ported and matched. Same with carb. Mostly Piaggio factory parts (3 port cyl, piston, etc )

TBH - love this bike.

Some craftiness as well. They upgraded the stator with a 12v system. It powered the bike and side car nicely - that is, until it's present owner experimented with LED bulbs that were "AC" and reeves it while standing on break peddle....

Fried my wiring harness.

Have you got experience with these guys?
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3306
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:48 am quote
Where in California are you?
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:03 am quote
Los Angeles.
The valley.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 729
Location: california
Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:57 pm quote
Solved - Sunday reading.
So - spent a Saturday sorting it out.
Have a new elec. ign on shelf - but got some good input from ya'll and didn't want it to go to waste/ wanted to know what happened.

Background: I upgraded my motor mounts - which turned in to a motor on the bench. During that process - elec. was disassembled. For other reasons, I also had the switch out.
Reassembled - all. Started - ran fine - then replaced bulbs with LED's at tail/ running lights - and all hell broke loose. Posted here asking for insights.

Key feedback:
- Fat Amy noted as others did - balanced system is crazy finicky until you have all bulbs in. Hard to make sense with a multi meter.
- Other's noted switch's notorious for creating issues - should be checked.
- Jack threw out the possibility of a short.

Using mutli-meter for continuity, found I had burned up various wires.
Harness was fairly new - and in nice shape - so hadn't suspected.

Decided to bypass full harness - using external homemade one.
See picture below - probably the bodgiest thing this bike has ever seen - and its from Indo.
Don't discount Encino level bodge. It's legit.

With new wires in place - or should I say - next to place - I fired her up.
Sure enough - I got good voltage output readings at motor junction box - but headlight failed to come on - and now only two of the three stator coils were producing 14-17 volts - others still registered 0.
Suspect I still hada a short - but wires were all new and external!

Had a new switch so put that in - still no improvement. Pulled, re-inserted/pulled reinserted... nothing. But then - did it one time with the engine running. As I pulled handlebar switch - she lit up like an xmas tree at all lights.
Tested output of stator - 14+ volts everywhere.

Re-focused on what was now a new handlebar switch - wondering - wtf.
Switch sits in a once piece MMW master cyl. billet aluminum cut part - not the orig handlebar mount.. Pheas' - are you reading this?
At closer inspection - switch does not seat like it did on stock handlebar base. See pic.
The MMW is machined just ever so slightly narrower. If switch is nudged a little left or right - you can ground various terminals...

So my issues were two fold.
1. I had some weird grounding going on due to switch grounding terminals. Switch was ok - but switch weirdness issues were mimicked by terminals grounding.
2. I stressed the system with the LED/ high rev/ brake pedal test I ran... oops.
3. Combo of shorting and stress melted harness in all the week points - as open circuits then looked for grounds.

Finally - can anyone identify what 12V points system stator I have?
P seriese? other?



Thanks for all that chimed in.
Even though it wasn't exactly any of the shots taken - all were relevant - created a road map.
Much appreciated.

- CM

IMG_0655.JPG
External wiring harness. $15 of wire from Home Depot. Thought the wire ties were a nice touch.

IMG_0654.JPG
Switch does not seat nicely in MMW master cyl/ switch housing all in one. Can rock slightly - and cause terminals to ground randomly.

IMG_0591.JPG
Anyone know what stator this is?

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