Modern Vespa

About the bike running better with no top on the box...is it possible that the air is restricted from coming through the frame?...as in, does that single seat block the air inlet that's located at the top of frame?

So tru.
"needed" to swap out main jet and take one more spin around the block at 9:00 pm last night - just so I could sleep a little better. We are going to find out. Bought this - so I could measure static pressure - after all the discussions I had read - and with my experience not being able to match performance with any jetting once the top is put back on. PS

Ginch:

That believe that your meter is a bit too gender specific...in order to not step on any toes, how about if we refer to it as a non-binary-o-meter?

There is a meter for measuring O?

That tells me (I think) that the electric locomotion is a way off as yet! There's no doubt about it, you have the soul of a poet.

Good deciphering - focus is on creating the needed power with cyl & head combined with the pipe that is already installed.

However if you look carefully - the thumb is shown forking upwardly & extending forward - indicating that my plan is to use my time to focus on the building of a side car frame that transfers load more globally on the scoot and operates leaner or locked.

Power seen in the non-separation of the fingers should be sufficient to make nice overall touring/sport performance.

Cyl/side car are next up.

And here I thought that hieroglyphic had something to do with 4th of July

Oh - I think that's Ausi hyro for turbo charge - or shrimps on the barby - one of those symbols that means two things.

:-)

Ha! I didn't even see that thing!

Busy/fun times.
Decided to take my bike up north as had some work that left large windows of time to play - if I could only figure out how...
Then of course, I thought I better do a little upgrading before I go - 'cause - what could possibly go wrong if I made a bunch of changes before traveling.

Ended up working until wee hours of morning two nights in a row to whip up some proper lighting - some may recall my first attempt at adding LED's melted down my harness.

Positive note - ended up understanding my elec system far better with a little help from the crowd - thanks all who input.


Added Sip Rd II and veturi - was at 102 MJ - moved to 112, then 116, then 118... Ended at 125. Was kinda shocked - but its a whole new bike

After wiring harness debacle - decided to use the DC power in my side car (little 12V) and re-wire bike with learnings. Put running, brake lights, speedo, accent lights, all on DC circuits and fabbed a control panel. Kinda fun to flip toggles when I par

Reason # 36 everyone needs a sidecar. Right hand side has master and kill switch to add security. Trunk locks.

With new LED lights - felt a ton safer for night - tip of the hat to Aerochip on lighting needs. So nice to drive at night now

Last min disaster with brake switch. Seriously have no idea how you install the closed at rest version. Internal components made of tin - can't solder to them - too flimsy to wrap wire around. Was stuck with no brake switch!

Cut up piece of copper gutter and fabbed new parts I could solder to - total move of desperation at 1:00am night before exit.

Now I just needed to load this in to that - alone... Did not want to be a you tube fail video/ darwin awards winner...

$60 power winch from harbor freight. Bolted to a piece of metal to fit between cab and bed of truck

Came with a remote!

1

2

3

Just need to pack a togo set of tools

Giant towel tool roll - made me laugh a little - heavier than the side car - but truck had room so...

Gratuitous additional shots - was pleased for neither damaging myself or truck (I've been known to do both...)

Pay off - better than I had imagined. Bike running great - sun out - high grade heroin.

Ha - love it all.

My latest 12v acquisition is a compressor for the tires. Will easily fit in the glove box. Bought it because needed to pump up a basketball... seemed like the best way

Awesome work! Great idea with the winch, good use of improv skills with the copper!

Impressive! Much could’ve gone wrong with that winching ... that you managed to get your rig loaded without causing any damage earns you high marks.

Wow - that was fun! Great job!

Looking for insights if you got 'em.
Put about 50-70 miles on the scoot on this trip.
Was fantastic/ ran fantastic.
Lots of hills.
Returned home - unloaded.
Took out for first time last night - slice and a beer. All good.
Went to ride today:
Started. Put it in first - let go of clutch - gears do not engage.
Tried second/thrid/ etc. Nothing.
Shut down. Wheeled bike in gear - can see flywheel is moved slightly as I roll - but not enough to turn over.

Just prior to trip:
- added superstrong clutch/ honda plates (WDC spacer on cover).
- Sip road II & venturi (upped power slightly)

No noises - no clunks or thuds - was running terrificly when I parked yesterday - but no longer engages gears upon restart today.

Weird - As if clutch is now being pressed by cover again and is disengaged at rest.

Suggestions on diagnosis welcome/requested.
Thanks!
-CM


Had planned to ask for input before tackling this! Looks like there's gonna be a rain delay.

That is a strange one. Maybe a sheared key that was ready to go and finally gave up when you tried to kick start it? For preliminary diagnosis you could just back off the 3 clutch cover bolts and see if it grabs hold. If it doesn't, probably that key.

Haven’t you answered your own question? Surely that is where to start. Not that weird - you were just playing around in there

- Thanks Pheas'. Yes - probably - but always interested for subtle takes before I dive in.

BTW - saw your post - mud guard is a bear! As if not enough - you have an added dimension with the shock bulge. That said - sounds like you have already figured out all the levers - now just a matter of time: How to cheat and get a barn find. (Page Recognizing my lack of experience, was looking for just this type of input - hadn't fully considered that one. Also like the diagnosis approach - and will tilt bike so gravity doesn't want to feed a broken key in to gearbox when I open now - Thanks V oodoo

Will post after I take a look tomorrow.

It helps if you turn the motor over until the key is at the top... but of couse if it has sheared then half could still be at the bottom...

Thanks guys - that input appreciated/helpful going in.

Put bike on lift (aka - two jack stands using side car).
First thing I noticed was the grease cap was off - didn't think much of it.
Until i grabbed the rear wheel. Wobbly loose.
Have read about this in the past.
- Wheel nut somehow loose
- Cotter pin still in place
- Inner wheel splines completely ground down to zero (owner mighta revved it once or twice... in a few different gears... when it didn't seem to engage...)

I put a tough 70 miles on the bike last week - hills, side car loaded up, down shifting happy owner..

Note it is an un painted hub.
My old one was showing wear - so I had replaced for the trip.
Sourced the F.A. Italia one cause I thought it was the best quality option.
May not have tightened sufficiently when I replaced.
Unsure.

Cleaned all splines on output shaft.
Then noted that I have significant end play.
About 3MM of shaft moving in/out.

Bracing for rain storm of call to split cases.
Feels like when I tighten the hub nut - most of that 3mm disappears - as output shaft is pulled taught.
(I can bodge with the best).

Curious:
- Assuming 3+mm end play is not desirable... wondering what is likely worn out in there?
- Will tightening hub nut to pull endplay out just create cascading new set of issues?
- Is there a favored hub brand you have?

As usual - thanks for weighing in.
-CM


Jack stand lift - basically just pick it up and put it on the stand (note that was a new -unpainted hub 100 miles ago).

Output shaft splines are tougher than hub - by magnitude 10. Splines are in reasonable shape.

Splines obliterated - thus felt like clutch was disengaged - cause shaft was just spinning

That shaft needs to be changed. It will destroy another hub. F.A. Italia hubs are famous for their “mozzarella” softness. Personally, the only hubs so far that didn’t gave me headaches were from LML. Even Piaggio’s are crap (made in Taiwan)...

Thanks Safis!
Am sure your right. hahaha. Indeed.

May opt to try and limp through rest of summer - with a couple hub changes if I can. Sooner or later this motor will come out - and full rebuild will be in order.

Welcome back!

Looks like you’ll be taking a trip to Splitsville sooner than expected.

Some end float is normal, but 3mm no... Is it just in and out movement or is the axle moving up and down in the bearing?

SoCal - thanks for pitching in.
It's strictly in and out.
When I out the old orange hub on and torque, there's basically zero end play.

I assume it has been there all along - but when I put on the new hub I didn't tighten as t had been - to make putting cotter pin in easier (line up).

That and aome high stress riding probably was an untenable combo.

Curious what normally wears that allows the endplay in first place.

Like I said some float is normal. If there’s too much it’s normally the bearings.

If you didn’t torque the hub nut down tight when you put it on last time that’s most likely why your splines disintegrated. The nut needs something like 55ft/lbs.

And make sure you have the washer that goes behind the hub nut.

There might also be some wear in the gears. Take the selector box off and see if the selector rod is tight (it has reverse threads - don’t remove it, there’s a washer on the end that screws into the cruciform).

FA is definitely the quality option, it's just your scale that's the wrong way around...

I imagine running a sidecar puts a lot of extra stress on the axle and bearing as it now has to cope with sideways forces which would have been almost non-existent previously. So it's probably slipping in and out of the bearing as well, maybe check your bearing too.

That shaft is dead. Splines are too far gone.

Just this last weekend I was working on a buddies p200. He could not get it to run clean. It sputtered and sputtered...would never rev up. It is fitted with a Malossi 210 kit. Polini 24 carb. Took the air cleaner box and air cleaner out....ran like no other, so we knew we had a problem in that area. Drilled out the heart and reinstalled the air cleaner with no box. Still ran good. Installed the box, still ran good.
Don’t know what else to say, drilling out the heart made all the difference in the world. I would not have thought that having an unmodyfied air cleaner made that much of a difference, but it did. Scott

Scott - Uncertain if this was response to earlier pondering regarding air flow - or just meant to post on another thread. Assume prior - and it's my fave response to my output shaft issues by orders of magnitude!
A. Nothing about splitting cases.
B. Hit my fave topic - air intake - as mine runs like it has the choke pulled when carb box top on - no matter what jetting/exhaust/venturi/ jetting/ etc. I have tried. No leaning of MJ sufficient. Pull box top off, upjet to get nice rich mix - achieves 47MPH+ with a 200 lb rolling beer cooler dangling off the starboard side with its little 150 motor. It just wants air.


As for output shaft: Tru. lots of lateral it was never designed for. Add fat sticky tires, and irreverent driving = probably wearing out the bearings. Second vote on bearing condition from a trusted voice from the southland. Got it. Means a bit more involved rebuild when time comes. Have the proper thick washer. Not so much a fan of the castle nut with cotter pin - optimizing torque setting and getting pin to line up. Has anyone swapped over to a spindle nut as per below to improve locking?

SoCal - I'll shoot you a direct note to clarify test you proposed. Tks! Well - no one will accuse you of sitting on the fence... Sounds like it'l have to get replaced.

I am still loath to split cases before end summer.
Keep in mind - I once drove my Datsun 510 as a teen for 6 weeks with no clutch slave cyl. Got really good at timing lights, double clutching, and using starter in gear when absolutely forced to come to complete stop - all the fancy cars do some form of it now - but I feel safe in saying - it caused some looks back then...

I know the gear box will have to get re-worked - and will have plenty of questions on fortifying it for my use - but for now - I am going to get the best hub I can - and try to avoid compromising torque for lining up of cotter pin.

Threw on the old orange hub that has half the splines worn away - torqued properly, and it was happy back out on the road this eve - so perhaps with new hub - I can get away with a few more months.

Any outright safety concerns I should consider from your view points?

I have used the regular spindle nut/cage washer/cotter pin, just as your picture. MUCH better for torquing the nut proper, and the separate castle washer makes aligning the cotter pin easy! Highly recommend.

Don't concern yourself with not being able to align the "castle cage" thingy, I think the gaps must be offest somehow so that anywhere the nut stops, the cage will fit.
Since a series of loose hubs a few years ago, I've been using a long breaker bar (1 metre +) and standing on it. No problems since that time.

I was pondering what I said earlier, about the driveshaft moving in and out of the centre of the bearing. I see some of the early driveshafts are basically straight, which could allow this kind of movement.
The later ones have a shoulder that appears to butt up against the inner bearing race. I think that once you bolt up the hub, it should sandwich the bearing between the shoulder and the hub itself.
If that's how it works (to be honest I don't know if there's a gap between the hub and the bearing) then that would transfer all the forces on to the bearing itself. Which is cheap and (relatively) easy to replace.

Ginch - thanks for the extra kick of the tires.

TBH - my bearing seems to be fine from what I can tell. no noise, no evident wobble. I'm sure a new one would be tighter - but this one is not thrashed.

The shaft end play is very solid once it bottoms out - when pulled. You get a solid thud as (what I assume is) the collar seats on the bearing. Your picture is helpful for envisioning. Possible it is also a gear bottoming out. I will have an extra close look at the inner race when I put the new hub on. I will often ask a question when I have already got a sense from reading other posts/ researching/ etc - even if I think I know the answer - but more often then not one of you guys posts a detail that turns out to be a gem - and highly useful.

Ginch's tightening method and SoCal's reminder of torque setting highlights how I set myself up for failure on hub change.
I replaced the hub and was over-confident in a "new hub's" strength, so I actually backed off it slightly to align the cotter pin...
Won't do that again.

I get that the output shaft has seen better days - and I know a rebuild is inevitable.. Hell, with a side car and my driving style, my shift cross's life expectancy is only slightly longer than a mayfly's - or one of Jack's woodruf key's.

But this thing has had the same endplay since purchased 6 months ago. With proper torque - I am guessing I will be ok through summer.
We will see...

So with new hub in my hot little hands already (love California), wanna start thinking about cylinder and head conversion and set up.

Next post with some questions for the crowd on tricks and best practices - along with some targets for specs and cyl prep. This will be my first one.

Thanks all - very helpful.

-CM

*edit: GeekLion - thanks for the experience with locking nut. I like the added precision in concept - good to hear you have had actual good experience with that!

Glad to hear you got it sorted. That shaft is def on its last legs, but maybe not dead yet. I'm not the expert, but seems like classic 'loose hub nut = stripped hub" scenario. More than a few friends have been in this boat. Gotta get that 55-65 ftlbs! Maybe even a squeak tighter. Nut + castle washer swap might not be necessary, compared to stock castle nut; but I like em! Old vespa mechanic recommended to me back in the day. Good luck!

Fascinating stuff you have there.

Thanks! More charitable then some of my wife's comments I assure.


Last 48 hours in town before I visit Jack's neighborhood for a bit.
Have signores Poloni & Malossi awaiting my return.

Thought I would follow Swiss's lead and solicit some feedback from present tuning efforts - take stock before my next upgrade venture with cyl and head. Bank what I've learned.

tuning approach to date involves ear, ass, and beer - not necessarily in that order - which may be self evident by plug pic...

Current state of upgrades:
150 3 port.
Si 20/20
Sip road II
Polini venturi
No carb box top or filter

Stack:
160/BE3/128
Idle ~ 3.2 (currently..)

After adding pipe and Venturi, jumped 25+ points on MJ - which would suggest I was either way lean before or way rich now - but both times mj tuning came from best feel/power/ top speed.

So, risking some healthy and likely well deserved ridicule - Ian's out of basic dumb curiosity- present current state of affairs below.

Driving is normally WOT to redline, shift, WOT to redline. Normal right?

Comments?

Hmmm not exactly the right spark plug. Running terrible though. If you put the box top on you will feel how terrible.

Do you have any other atomisers?

Will be lucky if that hub lasts the next 48 hours.

A while before I'm back in my neighbourhood. Still on tour for a few weeks more.

Hard outloud chuckle - how can you tell I have the wrong plug - the damn thing is hidden in the wrench. Hahaha. But good eye - It is an NGK that came with it from Indonesia - have been saving the new plug for new set up. That one is about 12 years old.

However - running great actually - as long as that box top isn't on.
High 40's on flats.
Pulls great up hill in 3rd.
Low 200's on hot day at WOT.
high 200's in 4th, lugging at 4500RPM WOT.

Will get a whack of jets for the polini 177 cal and Malossi head install I plan on return in a few weeks.

Still curious about what you/others see when they look at plug condition.
Care to elaborate a bit?
Rich?
Hot?
Cold?
Lukewarm?

Extended tip spark plugs ehh? I thought about this too when I read Gordon Jennings spark plug article. Until I read this paragraph and figured I should heed his warning at the end of it:

So I have an extended tip plug?
Hahaha. Gotta laugh at myself for never noticing.

Now that we've established a first plug fact, anyone else want to give their insights on fuel mix and plug temp?

(I can venture my own guesses, but would welcome yours!)

Doesn’t look bad to me for a 12-year-old non-spec plug… a little oily maybe ... but if Jack says your scoot runs terribly who are we to argue?

Wouldn’t hurt to pop a B7HS in there for fun and see how it goes.