Modern Vespa

NOW WITH VIDEO AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST.

I've been wanting to improve the horn on my BMW touring bike from a meep-meep to something commanding attention with an authoritative presence like the Stebel Nautilus that I shoe-horned into my GTV 10+ years ago.

I was just going to go buy another Stebel Nautilus but decided to do a bit of research on options. I'm glad I did. The Stebel was not the bst choice to my ears.

I had three criteria for horn selection:
1. Its got to be hidden under the bike's fairing (and there's not a lot of room under there)
2. Its gotta be loud. I know horn loudness or even using a horn at all is controversial with some members but I use my horn liberally. I always give people who can pull into my path and aren't looking at me a little toot. I sometimes get a little wave acknowledging me and sometimes a look that says, "I see you asshole". But I'd rather get a scornful look than get hit.
3. Its gotta have a rather pleasant sound, and that usually means multiple horns with sounds that blend harmonically. Most car, truck and train horns, for example, usually have 2 or more horns.

After reading a bunch of specifications for specific horns and listening on-line, I realized I wouldn't be satisfied till I could listen to them all live in the same afternoon. Fortunately, Amazon provides free returns through Kohl Stores and there's one about a mile from my house. So I bought a bunch of horns to test.

The horns fell into two categories:
o Diaphragm horns that creates air movement with a speaker-like membrane. Most cars and small trucks use these types of horns.
o Air horns that blow air past a reed like a clarinet or a saxophone. Trains and large trucks use air horns.

Both horn styles usually have a trumpet-like bell that shapes the sound characteristics and focuses the energy in a forward direction. While there's a lot to be said about the acoustical physics of horn design, I'll leave it there.

A note on sound and perception: These horns all operate between 300 and 500 Hz which describes the fundamental pitch. Orchestras tune at 440 Hz just to give you a sense of the range we're talking about. Car horns are in that same range. Train and large truck horns tend to be a bit lower. Meep-meep style scooter and motorcycle horns tend to be a bit higher.

The first picture below shows the horns I auditioned. I'll describe each of them starting in the upper left corner with the Fiamm AMS80

o Fiamm AMS80S Dual Horn system: This kit consists of two diaphragm horns with a snail-looking bell, virtually identical to the Fiamm Freeway Blaster horns shown below the AMS80S box. Its two horns are described as "Low" and "Hi" and centered at 400 Hz and 500 Hz. They are quite loud. Fiamm sells another kit called the AMS80SX. As far as I can tell, the two kits are identical.
o Fiamm Freeway Blasters 72012, 72112 and 72102 horns. These are all individual horns. Fiamm didn't provide much description of these horns so I just bought them realizing I could return them after the fact. The 72102 is identical to the Low horn in the kit and operates at 400 Hz and the 72012 and 72112 are identical to the High horn in the kit operating at 500 Hz. I don't know why they have two model numbers for it. Once I realized the single horns were identical to the horns in the kit, I ignored them for the rest of the tests. Had Fiamm's website been more descriptive, I would have known I didn't need to purchase them. But you'll see the 500 Hz horn played an important role later.
o PIAA Sports Horn consist of two diaphragm horns operating at 400 and 500 Hz. They are a bit higher quality in the hand than the Fiamm horns but are virtually the same design. They are a bit louder than the Fiamm kit horns and have about the same pitch, as you'd expect.
o PIAA Superior Bass Horn consists of two diaphragm horns operating at 330 and 400 Hz. It has a lower sounding pitch than the PIAA Sports Horn and I liked the sound better than the Sports Horn.
o Stebel Nautilus: This seems to be the go-to loud horn on MV so it had to be part of the test. It is an air horn and the silver cylinder is an air compressor. It has two horn frequencies of 400 Hz and 500 Hz.
o The Wolo Horn is virutually identical to the Stebel but about 2/3rds the cost. They sound nearly identical tho the Stebel was about 2x heavier. Not sure why.

Surprisingly, the diaphragm horns are louder, smaller, lighter and probably easier to mount than the air horns, so I decided to stick with the diaphragm horns.

I liked the PIAA Bass Horn sound best because it sounded more like a train or large truck and less like like a car horn.

Finally, I tried combining the PIAA Bass Horn kit at 330 Hz and 400 Hz with the Fiamm 72102 operating at 500 Hz. The sound of all three together was incredible and definitely had a very large presence.So that's the way I'm going. I just need to figure out how to mount the three horns but I'm working that. It will require that I run a seperate 20-30 amp circuit but that's pretty easy (for me). You have to do this becuase the stock circuit on the BMW, similar to the Vespa, cannot supply the power for the horns. It will blow the fuse.

I tested the horns by setting up a work bench (plywood on saw horses) next to my car which has a 260 amp-hour battery (this a large and powerful battery). I set up a sound pressure meter on my iPhone and measured the freuqency spectrum for each test about 8 feet away. Its not worth the time to post the spectra of each horn. I used it to verify what my ears were telling me. I wore ear protection during all testing. I ran the horns directly from the battery but on a 20 amp fused circuit.

I'll be returning all the horns tomorrow. All told I think I had about $275 in horns on my work bench. There are other horns out there but I think I had a good sampling and, unless something comes up that's really compelling, I have found my horn setup. I hope to have it completed by next week.

My next step is to figure out the horn mounting which will require removing the fairing on my bike and puttting in the auxiliary electrical circuit for the horn. I'll do a follow up once I get the horns installed and will provide and A/B sound comparison.

Hope this helps someone!!

---------Update with video------------
https://youtu.be/lqaFzqVgtNA
------------------------------------------

Best
Miguel





Last edited by Miguel on Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:34 pm; edited 6 times in total

Very ingenious, Miguel! Thank-you for posting a detailed report, that's really useful information.
Cheers, Jim.

A great review Miguel. I bet you're really popular with the neighbours!

Thank you Miguel I was just in the process of looking for a decent horn after nearly having someone reverse into me the other day and my roadrunner meep meep horn did nothing to alert them that I was there.

Thank you for the detailed report!

Great report , many thanks.

I appreciate that you are very comfortable with electric wiring, but many
( well at least me) are not .

I would like to replace the horn on my 2020 GTS 300 , but it needs to be a simple plug in replacement .
Add in the fact that there is so little room to add a horn behind the OEM cover, and placing it in another location doesn't work well.

I am looking forward to seeing/hearing your best results with those factors in mind.

If you can make decisions quickly and have $14, this looks like a pretty good deal

https://sellout.woot.com/offers/hella-loud-super-tone-electric-horn-3

Fortunately, I have a house in a relatively rural area and I did it ruing the work week so minimize the number of neighbors around.

Best
Miguel

Last edited by Miguel on Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total

That's a great price .

If my Vepa was back from my dealer all repaired from the spongy brake recall . I would be tempted , but all farkles are on hold until I am satisfied the brakes work properly.

Is there really enough room behind the horn cover for both of them ?
Or does one horn do the same job ?

Thanks , Doug

I have no idea, but it's $14 for 13 hours left - OR - until sold out. That's where the ability to make a decision comes into play.

Doug, you could try one of the Fiaam Road Blaster horns. I think it will easily replace the OEM horn. I still have the OEM horn for my GTV250 from 10 years ago. I took pictures of it and one of the Fiamm horns. I suspect its louder than the stock horn but haven't measured it. Amazon sells this one for $11.91.It can be mounted to the same fitting as the OEM horn and I don't think it will blow the fuse. Its less than 6 amps. It's worth a shot in my opinion.

The horns MotoVista pointed out are also worth a shot noting that you'll only be able to use one of them.

It's just a gut feel but I think the Fiamm will be louder.
Best
Miguel

I'm pretty sure there's enough room behind the horn cover. I put a Stebel in the same place. If it doesn't work, you can always return it.

Miguel

I'm pretty sure those are what came stock on my Moto Guzzi. They are loud. One fell off and the other one was still loud.

I'm aware that not many understand electricity. For years I've toyed with the idea of doing a short monograph that I've titled "Understanding 12 Volt Electricity for Scooterists and Motorcyclists". But there's so many other resources out there that do the same thing for cars, trucks, boats, ATVs, RVs that I discourage myself from doing it. But maybe there's middle ground just for adding horns and lights to scooters and motorcycles. Think that would be worthwhile?

Thanks
Miguel

That'd be interesting if they were using Fiamm horns since Fiamm is made in the USA. But there are a lot of horns that look alike. I note that the Vespa horn is made in Italy.

I'm glad to hear they are loud. The "pancake" design is such that it radiates sound in all directions. The Fiamms and similar horns tend to focus the sound energy forward out the bell. But its hard to tell the difference without actually measuring the sound level either by ear or with an instrument using the same set up in the same location.

BTW, I used an app on my iPhone called "Spectrum". It works pretty well. I don't know if its calibrated but I really only cared about the relative levels.

Miguel

Before one can evaluate the relative loudness of a horn and make numerical comparisons it is required reading to understand how sound works in that the decibels are not a linear equation as they go up and down.
Not that I am a physicist either or any sort of sound expert! The US Army did try to turn me into a hearing protection officer...
Bigger numbers alone don't tell the whole story is another way to say this, I suppose?
This being MV others will now chime in no doubt.

For my own use, when younger I kind of got into the horn thing but not now.
The left turn failure to yeild right of way and texters and red runners could give a sxxx less if you have a loud horn as they're gonna do their thing anyway.
I do wonder about the science & human factor of a certain horn sound being more noticeable than another that might be louder yet not so noticeable? Then there is the noise law aspect to consider.

Thanks for the tests Miguel; very informative. I could have used this info a couple weeks ago when I was looking to replace the horn in my truck. I ended up going to the pick n pull and getting a used FIAMM for $8.

Hey Kentuckid. You are correct and I completely agree. I have a pretty deep understanding of the non-linear aspects of sound perception (called psychoacoustics), hearing physiology, sound measurement, sound propagation and dB scale. I have studied sound perception and its mathematics for decades schools. In graduate school, I minored in math with a focus on physics and engineerings. In fact, I'm currently consulting on two sound perception projects in Silicon Valley. So I truly appreciate your comments.

With regards to horns, they all operate in about the same frequency band so the concern is more about the relative loudness, not absolute numbers. All that being said, I'm pretty confident of my measurement set up, results and recommendation.

With regards to drivers not paying attention, you can only do your best and maybe a bit more. In addition to the loud horn, I wear a hi-viz (green) helmet and vest. I chose the high-vis green over orange because human vision is more sensitive to green colors than reddish colors. I also have quite bright yellow running lights. I chose yellow running lights rather than white because studies have shown yellow lights are more conspicuous than white during daylight hours. And they really standout against the sea of white running lights from cars. I'm not sure there's much more I can do except stop riding and I, like you, and not ready to do that yet.

Cheers
Miguel

Good on you JJ. Nice find. You might want to add a second horn as well but get one with a complementary frequency. Unfortunately, there's nothing on the Fiamm horn housing to tell you what the horn frequency is. As mentioned above, I used an app on my iPhone to measure the frequency spectrum of each horn. The fundamental frequency of each horn was pretty obvious from the measurement. You don't need a special mic either. You can just use the built-in mic on the phone. If you want a bit more of a tutorial on how to make those measurements, let me know.

Best
Miguel

Wow, that's a lot of work, good job! I've thought about upgrading the horn on my Vespa as it is absolutely pathetic... My Remus is louder than my horn.

As far as acoustics go and how sound works I've heard my share. My dad was actually the inventor of time code and and once in a while he'd talk shop with me and it would pretty much go right over my head. Whenever I bought speakers or sound equipment I had to make sure it met dads approval...

I finally finished up my horn install and have had chance to try it out on couple 2-hour rides. It's REALLY loud and sounds like a train horn. I'm quite happy with the outcome. It really commands attention. I generally toot at people that can pull into my path but aren't looking at me. Every one I honked at looked my way test rides.

I haven't had a chance to record it yet but I will over the next week or so. But if you are looking for a really loud and pretty good sounding horn trio, I recommend the PIAA Super (Dual) Bass Horn plus the Fiamm 72102 horn.

Best
Miguel

I am interested to know how you got two horns in such a small space .
Were you able to use the oem mounts . Also any info about hooking up the wiring .

Thanks, Doug

miguel, very informative post!

I am just thinking out loud here.

the vespa 250/300 horns are very whimpy.
on my 300 I originally upgraded to that fiam style horn.
it was very loud. it sounded like car horn. it would scare me it was so loud. what really bothered me was half the time I just wanted a less than loud beep just to say hi to people.

so I originally planned to ad a second horn switch with a second horn. but that desire went away when I swapped in a used sport bike horn. they are a plethora on ebay for 5-10 shipped. they are much louder than the whimpy stock horn. but have similar tone to stock horn so it still sounds like a scooter horn. and I found I can flick the horn switch and get a nice smaller volume beep.

great job...thanks!...i'm running this one at the moment which is pretty close to the same at a stebel according to online specs...115dB/2m...same output as a stebel nautilus (139dB/4in and 115dB/6ft)

http://www.yarton.com.tw/en/product/Turbine-and-Mini-Trubine-Horn/hyf-260.html#

The Screaming Banshee horns have this feature built in.
"Friendly" and "Angry" modes.
You tap the horn button and get a beep, you hold the button in for .15 seconds and you get the full 132db.
https://screaming-banshee.com

those sound like car horns. like the one I remove.

I believe even the idea of doing "Understanding 12 Volt Electricity for Scooterists and Motorcyclists" would be good, with focus on the most common things like lights and horns as you mention.

It is true that there is tons of stuff about electricity... but too much of it not very clearly presented, some with false information too. And the less one knows, less likely he is to apply lessons from other vehicles.

Just an example - think about the amount of discussion on various forums about batteries only...

Thanks for the feedback RRider. With your encouragement and that of others on MV and a BMW site I follow, I'll work on it over the holidays.

Cheers.
Miguel

Last edited by Miguel on Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

These fit perfectly under the fairing of my sons' Kawi 650R and are as loud as the Freeway Blasters on my Guzzi. They'll be hidden so no one has to know that you mounted $10.00 horns on your Teutonic Vunderbike......they came with a relay and some mounting brackets.


https://www.harborfreight.com/2-piece-12-volt-electric-horn-set-99911.html

Thanks for posting this. I have been looking for a replacement for my wimpy stock horn on my Harley. The mini model looks to be what I have been searching for.

You may want to double-check this but it looks like the mini model may not have the friendly/angry mode.
I didn't see it in the description.
I have one of the original ones from a few years back.

Bump to highlight the video added to the bottom of the opening post.

Miguel

Hi @Miguel,

Just another post to say, 'Thanks!' for the work and the thread. Being reluctant to start messing with wires, can I ask two things for clarification:

1. As a single Vespa GTS 300 (2018) plug 'n play replacement, you would recommend the Fiamm Road Blaster?

2. It there a amp number / current / power draw number that I need to meet or be under to avoid installing a relay? I'm thinking this is 5 or 6 amps.

Might do a matching install for my 2017 V-Strom 650 as well.

Again, all thumbs up!

I'd recommend the 400 Hz Fiamm horn #72102. It seemed to be the loudest of the Fiamm horns and had a more pleasant tone of the three howns.

I don't know for sure how many amps the Fiamm horns take but I'm going to guess 5 amps. On my BMW, I have 3 horns and power them all with a 15 amp fuse. (15 amps)/3 = 5 amps.

Also I don't know how many amps the Vespa horn takes. Anyone know? Looking at similar horns on Amazon, they take about 3 amps. All Vespa use the same horn according to Scooterwest.com (part number CM071806). On my GTV 250, the horn was powered by a 7.5 amp fuse (#7) so I'm thinking you'd be ok with any of the Fiamm horns.

Honestly tho, I'd give it a shot and if it blows the fuse, just replace the fuse. I'll even send you a fuse for free if it blows. My gut feel is that it will work.

Thanks for the thumbs up!

Let us know how it goes please.

Best
Miguel

@Muguel

Thanks Miguel. I appreciate the follow up. The horn on my GTS is pitiful. It doesn't even scare the cat. Number one upgrade. Will search out the 400 Hz Fiamm.

I got it on Amazon.
Miguel

Dumb question, but can I put a bigger fuse in for a bigger horn?

It's a good question and the answer is No.

Th. fuse size is determined by the wire size of the circuit. I'm presuming that Vespa put in the largest fuse size for the wire they use for the horn circuit. I don't' know the fuse size for your horn circuit but its 7.5 amps on the GTS 250. You should be able to find the fuse size in the owner's manal.

If you were to put in a larger fuse, the wire will heat up, melt the insulation on that wire and adjacent wires and causing wires to melt together which could cause a fire and likely replacement of the entire bikes wiring.

If want to use a bigger horn, you need to use a relay circuit. I'm working on a primer for that but it's not done yet.

I hope that helps.
Miguel

I have just received the Fiamm horn mentioned above, from Amazon.
Removed the horn cover and original horn, and tried to make the new horn fit.
I think you possibly could fit it in, if you shortened, re-drilled and bent the bracket that came with the new horn. On my GTS I would have to have the opening of the horn pointing downwards to be able to get the cover back on. This means that the terminals would be around the wrong side and I would have to extend the wires to reach.
For the time being, I have re-installed the original horn.
To Fencing Fan, I don't think it's quite "plug and play", so your cat can relax again.
Cheers. Jim.

Good input Jim. It doesn't sound too hard to adapt to the Vespa tho. Miguel