Modern Vespa

I have a 8 year old unused Pinasco 215 kit for which I've long since lost the instruction sheet & I have the new long stroke specific VRH head, just wondering which gaskets & which spacers, if any I should be using with this combo?

I just recently upgraded my old pinasco 225 with spacers and worb5 head, to the newer VRH head.

The old setup had a 1.5mm spacer at the bottom of the cylinder. The VRH head doesn't need this.

There was nothing wrong with old setup. I just felt like tinkering a little.

It runs well now. A little less top end, and lots more low end grunt.

There are actually 2 pinasco kits
there is the 215 kit and the 225 kit and the real early one I think thank you had is called a 213
the later that is 225 has a 1.5mm longer barrell and modified head and this is why the head fits without a base gasket or is the vrh head for the 215 kit in which case it would have a different cc again
I found the old kit had a better piston for better top end
I would use older piston on new2 kit
which one do you have put them side by side which is taller?
So no not a stupid question
I would like to buy the old kit I think it was better!
note my piston shots
one is a pinasco 213 one is a polini 208 and the other is a pinasco 225
which order ?

No! There is only one pinasco kit for the px200 engine.

There might be an older version, but no one sells that any more.

Some call it 215 others call it 213 or 225.

The point is the volume is 213cc with a 57mm crank and 224cc with a 60mm crank.

Now if you put the barrel on a motor with a 60mm crank, you either have to use a spacers to make the total length 1.5mm longer, or you compensate with a VRH or other suitable heads.

Drear Vespamaniac,
I just purchased the VRH and I was wondering what is the exact timing? In fact what woukd be the timing with VRH 225cc + vespatronic
Thks

Out of interest, is your cylinder aluminum or cast?

did pinasco used to make the 200 kit in cast iron? - hence different pistons etc? or is my memory more shot than i thought?

its all very well packing the cylinder to give the desired squish etc but what about what happens to the piston at BDC/ @ exhaust port....

The way I measured which packer to use on my pinasco 224 set up (ali cylinder) and which head to use/modify was to fit the kit and look up the exhaust stub to where the piston reaches @ BDC. Please correct me if im wrong here someone ......
for maximum power and reliability, the top of the upper 'L' shaped Dykes ring @ BDC should be level with / or even slightly above the bottom of the exhaust port -
(before someone shoots me.....a 'standard' piston and rings you would measure from top edge of piston itself and hence both piston rings would pass beyond the exhaust port)

From here i got the perfect height of the cylinder ..... then ...you can measure your squish etc and decide which head would suit you best for your particular needs. the VRH should be a good choice, although ive not used it but only seen the specs.

When i first fitted my pinasco kit on stock 57mm crank there was no way it was made for this crank without heavily machining the cylinder.

the easiest, best solution for me was to fit the long stroke... which gave almost perfect exhaust port clearance and also perfect deck height @ TDC plus a few more cc too!


fyi - i have a standard p200 base gasket fitted (ports matched) this measures @ 0.3mm , all others I have are 0.2mm thick. I could even go upto 0.8mm base gasket but would have to change/alter the cylinder head (again) to suit
*edit - as for timing, mine is set at 19 BTDC @ 2000+rpm, 18 was too sluggish, 20 started pinging every now and then

I wanted to like the VRH head back in March and did like it too for a while, but there was more grunt at the expense of too much top end power. It got a little boring..

So eventually I removed the VRH head and put back the worb5 head and the 1.5mm base gasket that I used to run earlier.

I guess the combination of a 28mm phbh carb and a JL RZ pipe is working against the VRH head and the lowered cylinder. Using an SI carb and a sip road it'll probably work better.

yeh true... i wanted my rally 200 to look as standard as possible so am using upjetted/modified stock 24mm carb with sip road, (with the pinasco 224) i have a few other modifications too but it works very well and still does. i recommend it. the combo works well around town and long distance-motorway-full throttle-for-1hour-touring. i can keep it in 4th everywhere if i want too, it's so smooth.

where does your piston stop at BDC with the extra 1.5mm? or where was it before?

i truely believe the head that is right for you can be worked out mathematically once you decide where you want BDC to be in relation to your exhaust port/piston.... it doesn't matter if its the VRH or worb5 or whatever, so long as the important things are considered...among other things, how much:
cumbustion/volume there is, squish band and gap, etc... these will differ from user to user requirements... the specs i seen for the VRH are almost indentical to what I had made and it works very well for my set up but i deliberately slightly under powered the engine a little! to help keep it reliable with emphasis on 'no future internal maintanence required' !

bholinath - How do you find the SIP road pipe?
I've got a sito+ fitted and hating the noise.

Don't worry neb .... I know... I've been there too.... it will be alright ...we're here to help our fellow sufferers

My SIP road has lasted ok for almost 2 years...

i got so fed up with the shito+ for the same reasons as you... i made my own exhaust in the end, very similar to the SIP road/PEPII exhausts. built from an original piaggio exhaust ... works well enough but not perfect for my set up. I am only an ametuer, which i can't even spell.

SIP Road
Pros;
Looks almost standard (more so than a Sito+ anyway)
Better ground clearance (at least on pre P range machines)
Sounds much nicer than Sito+ ... does anyone actually like that cheap tinny racket of the Sito+ ?
It's no louder than a sito+ (to my ears)
Improved performance (re-jetting, air flow adjustment will be required)

Cons
it appears to be made from the stock sito exhaust
built quality looks good just maybe the materials are not so good compared to piaggio parts ....
it slipped off the exhaust stub a few times .... now it's ok ... but only after doing the following modifications...

slotting the neck of the pipe so it clamps on tighter to the aluminum cylinder stub...
attaching a spring from the exhaust to the cylinder head, or somewhere, to help keep it in place ... now im confident that i don't have to check the torque on that exhaust clamp so often...


i don't understand why people still recommend the sito+ over the SIP road.... although i don't know how they run on a stock cylinder.

On the Pinasco 224 engine the SIP road made a lot (technical term) of difference compared to the Sito+ ...

I had to do some other minor adjustments here and there, mainly to the stock carb.... the SIP road needs lots more air than a sito+... i ended up almost stripping the filter mesh completely off the stock filter to get just enough air flow.... now i've spotted the polini air filter ...... interesting!
Would like to hear some views on the polini filter from others

hi so if understood well
for a pinasco 225 VRH cylinder head + 1.5 mm gasket , the vespatronic timing should be 17+ 8= 25 deg? am i correct there?
and squich band shall be around 1.5 .mm?
thks

As far as i know my pinasco kit is unmodified (i bought it 2nd hand on ebay)
and with this kit i found the following which i hope helps...

if i used a 1.5mm base gasket with a VRH head (with 60mm long stroke) i would have almost 2.8mm squish gap?! (the stock p200 is also something close to this so it can't be so bad)

am i right in thinking the VRH head has a 1.2mm lip for squish gap?
On my cylinder with 0.3mm base gasket i get ok deck height of 0.38mm, squish gap (1.6mm - although i aimed for 1.4mm)! this is using a very similar head to VRH.

if i were to built another pinasco 224 motor i would use a 0.8mm base gasket,
I would then end up with 0.88mm deck height, which is safer than 0.38mm, then i would reprofile a head with total 30cc volume, with a 0.5mm lip for squish gap... (if that's even possible)? but if higher octane fuel is not so readily available i would go for 31cc head
i would also probably go for the polini air filter on my si24 carb (if it's not too noisy)...

Maggs.... you must have had a very similar set up to what i have now...
im happy with the fact my revs don't go over 7500rpm and my top speed is not over 75mph
but do you think by raising my cylinder with a 1.5mm packer (instead of 0.3mm) would give noticable extra top end? (with the right head of course)


with regards to timing...im not sure about the vespatronic settings but i run 19 degree at over 2000rpm (this goes down to just below 17 at idle)

i run with sip road and si24, 130 main

also, consider ways to allow more fuel into the cylinder if you going to go on long wot runs ...cosa float chamber top or fast flow tap, etc

No, you shouldn't need a 1.5mm gasket with the vrh head. It's made for 60 mm crank.


bholinath: Yes there is a difference. At least when you combine it with a 28mm phbh carb and an expansion chamber..

As I now have tried both the 225 VRH setup and the worb5 setup that requires a 1.5 mm gasket, I must say I prefered the latter. I loose a little low end grunt, but from a practical point of view I can now accelerate onto the motorway in second gear up to the speed limit without having to shift. If I where to guess, the powerband has moved up a little by about 500-1000 rpms or so.

I need to do a dyno run to confirm that, though. I'll have a go with my dyno app when I get a day off from work..

thats interesting....
ive been looking at various dyno graphs (including mine) and comparing them.
i notice with the SIP road there is a dip in power at around 4500 - 5500 rpm... this seems to be the same on most dyno graphs i've seen that use the SIP road... with whatever kit the motor uses.
anybody else noticed this?
so im wondering if i should pack the cylinder a little higher to help overcome this problem as on my local roads the traffic seems to do around 50 -55mph, exactly where my small lose of power is.
am i correct in my thinking there?

riding the scooter i never physically noticed the drop in power at around 5000rpm before, until i saw it on a dyno graph. it would be nice to gain an extra HP instead of loosing it at this rpm , especially as i do ride in that rpm zone quite a lot... otherwise i would cruise at around 60mph+/6000rpm...

im not changing the exhaust, (money dictates this and i like stock looking machines)
yes i realise im not getting everything i can out of the kit but thats fine as im after a solid, dependable tourqey tourer not a top speed racer) and that is also true for the carb.. i dont want to change that either...
now there is the polini air filter and bigbox exhaust... (and ali polini cylinder)! hhmmmmm?!
maybe on my next engine!!

if i loose a little low end grunt it should not be a problem as the pinasco kit has soooo much low end grunt already. so long as i can still cruise in 4th gear from 30mph to 70mph then thats fine!

I'm interested in the polini filter.
SIP pipe first to see the difference.
Then the filter.

I have a crankshaft of 60 mm, so I still need the 1.5 mm gasket with the VRH head?
thks

no..... with 60mm crank a stock gasket is fine with VRH head.
with 1.5mm gasket the squish would be too much and compression a little low with VRH head.

Hi all, just looking for a bit of guidance if you please

Currently running a PX200 motor with Pinasco 215 kit, PM pipe, BGM 26/26 Si carb.
I want to upgrade to 225 - what do I need? A 60mm crank and 1.5mm cylinder spacer - is that all? And does the timing change after these mods?
Any help appreciated

You may not need much of a spacer or at least not 1.5mm, what's your current squish? Yes raising the cylinder changes timing. Yes a 60mm crank changes cylinder timings. Normally raising a cylinder would increase peak power and the RPM that power is produced at. Also compression will be increased, you'll need to figure out if its to much.

Tbh, I can't remember what the squish is off the top of my head, been a couple of years since building it.

So I guess the best thing to do is fit the crank and then evaluate the spacing required, makes sense.

Ok, thanks

I would look up how to check squish, if you don't know how, and check it before hand. Would be nice to know what your starting with. If you need a spacer you would know before you started. The squish on my Pinasco 225 was over 3mm when first setup, I had to remove the cylinder spacer completely, and take some material off the head, to get down to a 1.7mm squish. Pinasco recommended a 1.7 mm to 1.9 mm squish when I asked. Not hard to check at all.

If I remember correctly, 1.8mm sounds about right.

Ive been looking at the Pinasco cranks with the splined clutch shaft - anyone had experience with those? Good/bad?
Seems a decent idea although you are restricted with which clutch you use obviously.
And I'll probably opt for the 28/28 SI carb (didn't know they were a thing until recently looking )

Pretty sure the splined crankshaft is only for the Pinasco 251 cases, but I could be mistaken. Also, the 28/28 SI carb is pre-mix only if you weren't aware

I only premix anyway
Here's the link, for the crank, says its for all Vespa large frame models:
https://www.pinasco.com/racing/content/28-albero-motore-factory-vespa-large#googtrans(it|en)

I've just finished lapping my 251 down to 1.45mm squish....maybe I did not need to bother!

That 251 engine looks ace, love to have that

This is currently what I've decided on:
Pinasco 225 cylinder,
BGM Pro 60mm crank
BGM Super Strong Clutch,
Mallossi 24/63 Primary Drive Kit
BGM 36 tooth 4th gear
Pinasco 28 SI Carb

Think that's it, hopefully I haven't f*cked up, will strip down ina week or two

I’m curious how it’ll run in 4th with the 24/63 gearing. I’ve got 24/65 in mine now with a 36 tooth 4th gear.

I use 24/63 and a 36T 4th in my Pinasco 225. It's great most of the time and keeps the RPM lower at high motorway speeds. However it is overgeared with a pillion and luggage. I have since put 100/80 tyres on to lessen the effect of the gearing, and I feel the need to experiment with a BGM 23T straight cut Cosa clutch gear. Scooter Center says that it will not mate with the Malossi straight cut primary, but I doubt they've tried it and would rather sell me their own 63T primary. Trying to avoid changing the primary for obvious reasons

I used the chart on scooterhelp.com, seems this gear combination gives the best result. I hope it does as I don't really want to strip down the engine again just to change 1 gear cog LOL

When I split the cases, I was thinking of putting the factory 4th back in, I have it sitting in a box, then trying a higher 3rd gear to reduce the 3 - 4 spread. If that is an option with my pre EFL gears. Then, I could put a 23 tooth clutch cog back in if needed to raise rpm if needed.

I was also thinking of putting on a taller 11" wheel, and a taller 120 tire to up gear a bit.

Your engine better have a huge amount of torque in order to push that bigger tire. That 120 is super tall compared to the 3.5x10. I'd leave in the short 4th if you're planning on using that 120 (the engine might still have issues pushing that tire even with a 23T/65 clutch). Also keep in mind that there will be much more of a load rolling resistance with that 120, and the shear weight of the tire will also sap a fair amount of power in 4th gear. It won't be that noticeable in the first three gears though. So if you want a big heavy tire, you'll should gear down lower that normal to regain the power that will be lost. Same exact thing for installing big tires on 4x4 trucks that a lot of owners don't realize, you have to lower the gearing in the axles to a much lower ratio to regain the lost power.

Anyone know if this is right or not? - I asked the Scooter Centre over in Germany if the BGM Super Strong Clutch is compatible with the Mallossi Primary gear kit
They said no as the BGM gears are straight cut teeth, but so are the Mallossi teeth, despite this they're still adament that the two pairs of straight teeth won't mesh together.
WTF?! '\_("/)_/`

You either need to run the risk of this combination working/not working, or you need to buy the Malossi 24T Cosa clutch gear and install it into a BGM Superstrong clutch. I have looked into this, and whilst Malossi sells a 24/63 straight-cut upgear kit, it doesn't seem to sell the clutch gear without the primary. I already have the 63T Malossi primary installed, but I want to upgrade from an old 7 spring clutch to a Superstrong (or SIP Ultrastrong).

With them being straight cut, I wonder if each manufacturer puts there own design on the gear sets to reduce noise? Maybe that's why you only see them sold in sets? The angles cut into each tooth maybe different? Maybe there sold in sets because that combination is custom designed by the manufacturer to work together.

DRT seems to have a few gears you can combine.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/clutch-gear-cog-24-teeth-primary-drt-62-teeth-drt-cosa-2-clutch_87482400


https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/product/primary-driven-gear-62-teeth-input-shaft-drt_40432930

The problem is finding a Cosa style straight cut gear for those of us that have an existing and perfect good 63T Malossi primary installed. Malossi makes such an item but sells it as a kit, not the clutch part on it's own:

https://www.malossistore.eu/primary-gears-htq-z-2463-vespa-cosa-125-2t-6716720-veco125-M-P

I've been reading about them a bit out of curiosity, it reads like the gears are sold as a matched set. Looks like you would have to buy a new set and just use the clutch gear.

Seems like DRT would be the way to go, if you're putting in new straight cut as they offer a few options.

Yeah, just trying to avoid changing the primary as it's probably the most time consuming part to change

I strongly suspect that this BGM 24T straight cut clutch gear will mate with a Malossi 63T straight cut primary, but Scooter Center/BGM say otherwise:

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/clutch-sprocket-bgm-pro-vespa-cosa2-px-1995-bgm-superstrong-superstrong-cr-for-62/63-tooth-primary-gear-straight-24-tooth-bgm6224g

Cheers guys, I think I'll just refresh my current clutch and see how it goes or a friend has a Cosa Clutch I could try out (although would need to modify the cover for that I think.