Modern Vespa

I called up my local scooter shop today and asked how often I should change my oil on my GTS. The number they gave me was every 2,000 mi. When I said that the service manual said that the 2,000 mark was just an oil check, they said that they change the oil anyway just to be sure.
From my haunts around her I was getting numbers in the range of 4,000-6,000 for an oil change.
I'm inclined to believe the professionals on this, but how often should I change my oil?

Last edited by Dave C on Sat Oct 11, 2008 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

We're off!

Anything to alleviate your boring workday MVers.
Happy to help.

If you don't mind wasting money, go for that 2000 mile change. It's also wasting oil.

Very constructive post boxerdad. Care to throw a number in there? How often do YOU think the oil should be changed?

If you can change the oil yourself easily, then there is nothing wrong with changing it every couple thousand miles. Engines like clean oil. A certain MV-banned friend of mine in Napa changes his oil in 8 minutes while his girlfriend holds the scooter off the stand ... easy.

But if you have to make an appointment, trailer it to a dealer, leave it, come get it in a few days ... or weeks ... then every 3,000 to 5,000 miles will be fine. Definitely change it every spring and fall even if you don't ride it much.

Andrea and Gene at Scooters O are VERY knowledgeable and I'd believe them in a second on most any subject, well except soccer.

I go for 6000 miles. That is a couple times a year for me. I do think a yearly change is good so if you only ride 2000 miles a year then that would be you interval.

Years ago many small 4-strokes didn't even have an oil filter so they needed changing more often. With modern oil and filters that has extended a lot. Some cars today have 15000 mi intervals. Your manual probably has 5000 or 6000 intervals recommended.

This is a subject that I find a bit irritating. Dealers say 2,000 despite the manual and the warranty book. Supposedly most warranty books are out of date. (?) Others on this forum say 3,000 or 4,000 miles. If these were only $35 oil changes it would not be such a big deal to change every 2,000 or 3,000 miles. That being said I should learn to change my own oil and this would not matter. It would just be nice to have an answer. Any one with high miles on their GTS care to contribute to this conversation?

2000 is too soon. 5000 is to late. I start thinking about it at 3500 and do it by 4500.

... for me the deal is what is ahead for me and the GTS. If I am planning to go across country or states away, and over 2000, I'd change it. If I knew that the most I would be called upon to drive on a moments notice was 500 miles, I would just check the level and motor on.

... if you search this site, you'll find this is our favorite debate. Usaually doesn't begin every year until a lot of us are snowed in. You don't hear as much when everybody is out riding.

do it yourself and save the labor cost then you can afford to change it every 3k and your scooter will love you for it with amny years of reliabilty. I mean whats the costs really evrey 3k $15 filter very good oil 2 quarts $20 so your at $35 for an oil change. thats like a penny per mile

Decide whatever you want, but in the UK the Official Piaggio figure is now 6000 miles for the GTS. Change yourself more frequently if you wish, but do NOT be intimidated by a dealer into paying him for more frequent changes.

Thanks Jim!

Really not impressed. The official service time is 6000 miles and has been for a while. Check your owners manual.

What you were told is COMPLETELY untrue. Agree with jimc.

When multi-grade oil breaks down, it loses its viscosity and film strength. The engine will tolerate thin oil, but without an adequate film barrier moving parts can make contact. What breaks down oil is contamination from fuel and combustion that gets past the rings, excessive heat, condensation from heating/cooling cycles, and actual molecular shearing from high loads and high rpm. Because of Vespa's CVT transmission which prevents the engine from being lugged or over-revved, and the GT's water cooling, the oil is not tortured. A Vespa's worst enemies are stop-and-go city riding, and short hops that don't fully heat the engine and oil.

Pull the dipstick and check the oil's color and if darker than maple syrup, or if the oil smells strongly of gasoline, think about a change. IMO, city riders should consider oil maintenance about every 2500K. Longer distance commuters will not see oil deterioration so quickly and might go 4+K miles.

well put

Sorry. Vespas have synthetic oil in them so your theory falls down. Vespas are designed for EXACTLY the type of riding you describe above, and their service intervals take that into account.

+1

Note that even 6000 miles is far less than most car engine's oil change interval, especially those that use fully-synth.

6000 miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.

Synthetic oil, so it doesn't break down, the problem is contamination from combustion byproducts. These can form acids which increase wear.

The small amount of oil is the reason it's as low a 6000 miles. Synthetic oil is good for 15000-60000 miles in cars and truck applications.

Changing it more often hurts nothing, but is a big waste of money--$20-$30 DIY, more if you take it to a shop.

Changing oil yourself is easy if you have a sidestand, major pain if you don't.

P.

What grade of maple syrup? The various grades have a profound affect on color, ranging from light sem-lucent to a strong brewed tea color..

Where do DIY take the spent oil to be recycled???? I want to tread softly on the environment and frequent changes of oil where the oil is not recycled is wasteful

I think most garages will take oil from the DIYer.


Regards
Harvey

wherever you bought the oil from or most states have county recycling centers

Seems like everyone likes the folks over at Motorsport. Here is what their blurb on oil says - note the last line. I thought that the Motorsport guys were our friends, yet they are promoting oil changes at 1875 miles. If the true recommendation is 4-6k, why are these guys promoting something incorrect?

They want to make money?

Synthetic oil is superior to petroleum oil because it resists molecular breakdown from shearing and pressure loads better which lets synthetic maintain its rated viscosity longer. Unfortunately, there is nothing in synthetic blends to prevent them from getting just as contaminated as petroleum oil inside an engine in the ways previously mentioned. The filter in an engine does not trap that contamination, that is why oil darkens with use. Those substances have mass like the oil itself and it displaces oil. Think of oil molecules as a layer of ball bearings over the surface of a metal part. Add dirt molecules to the mix and the close proximity of those ball bearings widens, and dirt molecules do not substitute for ball bearings.

Last edited by Pacnwfoto on Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

Ah, that explains it When I got into work this morning Gene told me he had taken a really adversarial call about service on a GTS.

You both went over the differences in the manuals and Gene explained to you what they teach in Piaggio tech school. He also explained about the tough riding conditions on the rough, crappy roads around here and went over quite a lot of detail and our reasoning for why we do things the way we do, and how a service is actually more than an oil change. He would have spoken with you for longer, but you kind of cut the call short. We usually go on to ask the customer about the type of riding they do and what checks they perform on their own bike on a regular basis, MPG they are currently getting, changes in general performance etc. Most of the bikes we see people don't even perform the most basic of safety checks. Its a real concern in these parts.

You can see my opinion on what I do with my own bike as far as services go here: http://www.modernvespa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=482316&highlight=#482316

Incidentally, the service intervals recommended by Piaggio USA are either a mileage schedule or a time schedule, that time being 3 months. There is a lot of discussion on different forums over this 3 month schedule and the majority are against it.

I honestly don't appreciate us being called on the phone and asked for an opinion, then a fraction of what was actually said being posted here, with our shop name. It makes me feel like the purpose of the call was to be able to slam us on the internet.

I also don't appreciate the posters after you insinuating that we are trying to rip people off because we quote the manufacturers recomendation, albeit with qualifiers. JimC, until Piaggo USA officially changes its recommendations to the same as Piaggio UK's recommendations we dealers and certified techs shouldn't really change what we tell strangers on the phone based on what we read on forums.

The truth of the matter is that you can do whatever you want with your own vehicle's service interval, but above all things I highly suggest you form a good relationship with your dealer. Dave, I assume that you bought your bike from Metuchen. They're really good guys. You should have popped in and asked them. They know their stuff and I'm sure would have been happy to discuss it with you.

Andrea

I also regret the negative tone many posters took here as well. If a dealer or distributor recommends a more frequent service schedule, they are probably being conservative to help you protect your investment and to give reliable trouble-free service.

It strikes me that many people here who are doing their own service aren't really qualified, and then cry about self-inflicted issues.

A good relationship with your dealer is very important. As nice as that shop 3000 miles away may be, and as helpful as they are, they aren't the ones who you will call if you have a real problem. Cybermechanics don't exist--somebody has to physically put a wrench to metal.

I am a very good mechanic and do a lot of my service, but I try to spend some money at my dealer, and plan to let them do at least one major service every year--that way: 1. They are familiar with me and my bike; 2. Piaggio-trained mechanic will be familiar with specific traits, tricks and fixes--they can help advise me. They see dozens of the same model to my one; and 3. My money helps keep them in business, if they're broke, they're gone--and if they're gone I'm screwed.

Now after that, I still feel that 6,000 (more or less) is a reasonable interval for an oil change. I do recommend one oil change (regardless of mileage) before the cold weather and long periods where the bike may not be ridden.

P.

I am sorry that the previous two posters feel that there is a negative tone. And I apologise if I sounded negative.

BUT

If you open the Workshop Manual (The USA workshop manual) which is available in the Technical Library here, you will quite clearly see the recommended maintenance schedule.

Apart from oil and brake pad checks, the oil change frequency is at 6000 miles. Anyone that recommends more frequent changes is not technically correct.

Exactly what does it say in your US owner's manuals?

I change my oil myself every 3000 miles. This is what I have been doing with every vehicle I have owned. I have personal reasons for doing this.

2,000 miles, 3,000 miles, 6,000 miles - I think it is a personal preference. If you get on your scoot in the morning and you are thinking about the oil, then you should change it.

I feel good knowing that there is fresh oil and a new filter down there every 3000 miles.

Just my .02

I agree, the riding conditions thing is huge. I ride 99% in heavy stop and go traffic, NYC living. I'm sure my bike takes a harsher pounding than others just based on the roads and what not.

I did my 600 mile service, then let it go until 3,000. Just got the 3k done and I can feel a noticeable difference. Granted all my city driving equates to 2k a year so going forward I think doing the service every 2k works for me. It's hard driving, and yearly.

So I can live with the 2K thing...
... but then again, what do I know... :shrugs:

Again, this is a feeling that is often prevalent in automotive forums. Changing oil more frequently makes us happier. It also makes the oil companies happier. What about disposal and environmental issues?

I am not suggesting that we should extend our oil change intervals. Some of the ones suggested by the car manufacturers (18,000 miles or more) are ludicrous. Doing them more frequently than is recommended is a waste of money and resources.

I will do mine annually which will make it about 5000 miles of city/fast suburban mix driving.

In CA we can put the used oil in an old Gallon milk jug and place it on the curb with the recycling for free pickup.

To me it is VERY important to recycle your used oil, but I don't think there are environmental issues. That is like comparing your used oil to the Aluminum cans and used bottles. They get used and then recycled. The issue comes from people, companies, that do not do this.

Does it make the oil companies happy, perhaps, but so what. It makes me happy! And I feel I am already screwing the oil and insurance companies buy riding a scooter in the first place.

Andrea,
It wasn't my intention to slam you or your shop. I am sorry if it seemed that way. You actually helped me repaint my GTS and I rode quite a distance to get my first service from you guys. The reason I cut the call short was because I was on my work break and I had to get back to selling fish. I was not trying to be adversarial in any way. I shouldn't have included a name in my post and for that I am sorry. Just trying to make amends whether they are needed or not.

On another vain, does anyone know what type of tool and mm I use to loosen (and remove) the exhaust on a GTS? I think for an LX150 it is an 6mm, is that true for the GTS (note I am following http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWnc46aEiFk here).

If syn oil can go longer, what about just changing out the filter inbetween normal intervals?

I know some people do this with BMW's which state 15K change intervals but I have seen what a filter looks like after 15k miles and it is not pretty...it pretty much falls apart as you pull it out as the BMW oil filters are just paper and rubber.

Also, does anyone make a magnetic drain plug that will fit a Vespa to catch the ferric bits?