Fuzzy washer, Dr.Pulley, J.Costa comparison, with numbers
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Member
Piaggio X8 400
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:05 am quote
OK. I would like to made it clear first - I have Piaggio X8 400. Is has exactly the same engine as MP3 400, but is approx. 40kg lighter. I want to share my results with you (despite not having MP3, unfortunately), because this forum has the best resources about transmission tuning for this engine - IMHO. So I would like to give something in return for the knowledge I got from you.

I decided to test acceleration for different sets using custom onboard computer. Computer calculates speed counting impulses from the front wheel. It has good accuracy - 20cm per impulse. It gives 14 impulses per second at 50kph, which is enough for mu purposes. What is more important, it calculates speed, not estimates speed like GPS based applications - 99% of GPSes gets data once a second which is too rare to measure acceleration accurately - at least when it comes to scooters, not glaciers. Here's a shot of my computer's display.

And here's a link to a movie when it shows a screen with performance tests: http://youtu.be/JYPWZkKn7HY?hd=1&t=4m50s

Tables below should be quite self-explanatory. I made many runs on each setup but wrote down only significant results. The last column shows theoretical best result based on best intervals from different runs. Best intervals are shown in green.

1. Stock setup, cost - 0$


2. Fuzzy washer, cost - low, I don't remember


3. Dr. Pulley sliders 16g, cost - over 60$ AFAIR


4. Fuzzy washer + Dr. Pulley 16g, cost - like above


5. J.Costa, cost - around 300$


My comments:
The best bang-for-the-bucks ratio is Fuzzy washer + Dr. Pulley.

Fuzzy washer - should be used with lighter weights to know the difference.

Dr. Pulley sliders are very good, if installed properly. I managed to fit it incorrectly at first, despite using such sliders in my previous scooter for years.

Fuzzy washer + Dr. Pulley - best times.

J.Costa - it is nice if you like to go WOT all the time. It gives you this warm feeling in the stomach, like you were invincible . But it is annoying when just cruising at lower speeds, because it is revving high even when you don't want to. But results are very consistent - like 6,5 seconds to 80 kph and 9,4 second to 100 kph almost every single time.

I am going to measure if it would be possible to fit fuzzy washer with J.Costa without much risk for the belt.

Riding with sliders without washer was most enjoyable for me.

Thank you for your patience if you read down here, I hope you did not hurt your eyes (or brain) with my terrible use of English.[/url]
Ossessionato
2009 MP3 400
Joined: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 2004
Location: Saratoga, N.Y.
Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:15 am quote
Thanks for the research, Veeteck!
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21333
Location: welaka, florida
Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:24 am quote
Wow yeah thanks for posting your results. Good post.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:57 am quote
Outstanding post! Impressive that the FW + 16g Dr Pulleys resulted in a best time fully 2.6 seconds faster than stock. Puts numbers on that "seat of pants kick" we all know & love.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1304
Location: Louisville, KY
Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:23 am quote
Fantastic post. Your research is the first of its kind to my knowledge. I have to agree it certainly quantifies what we already knew. Good job.
Member
Beverly (BV) 500 2006
Joined: 29 Aug 2010
Posts: 24
Location: Sweden
Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:36 am quote
Very interesting! Do you know how much the fuel consumption will increase?

//Peter Björkdahl
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD; 2017 Versys X300
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 6127
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:37 am quote
Great analysis and thanks for sharing.

There was a thread a few months ago of someone who could not solve their stalling issue. The end result was a fuzzy washer with j-costa let the belt ride too high in the clutch pulley at idle. The belt dragged the housing and caused the bike to stall. You could try a thinner washer than the 1mm most often used. It can also make a difference which belt you have as Piaggio has sold a couple different ones. Worst case the bike stalls at idle and you take it out.

Again thank you for sharing.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:49 am quote
I took the best runs and calculated acceleration: a = (v1-v2)/t
I plotted them in Excel to get acceleration curves. It clearly shows the synergy between the Dr Pulley and the Fuzzy Washer at takeoff. Alone they are about equal - added together and you get kick-ass acceleration.

Acceleration.jpg

Hooked
MP3 400 LT 2009
Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 290
Location: Luxembourg, Europe
Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:52 am quote
wow thats nice
BubbaJon wrote:
I took the best runs and calculated acceleration: a = (v1-v2)/t
I plotted them in Excel to get acceleration curves. It clearly shows the synergy between the Dr Pulley and the Fuzzy Washer at takeoff. Alone they are about equal - added together and you get kick-ass acceleration.
Hello you technicians over in this Forum.
I am new her since a week.
Just bought a 2009 MP3 400 LT.
Needs its 18000 kms service.
What can you advice me if I like to tune up my motor performance?
Since it has to go open anyway?
What is clever to replace as well? (preventive)
I own also a MB model 124 Coupé from 1994 with 310000 kms and I always look a bit more foreword if something has to be replaced during maintenance and the machine is open anyway.

Thanks for your advice in advance.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21033
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:17 pm quote
Re: wow thats nice
AndreNL wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
I took the best runs and calculated acceleration: a = (v1-v2)/t
I plotted them in Excel to get acceleration curves. It clearly shows the synergy between the Dr Pulley and the Fuzzy Washer at takeoff. Alone they are about equal - added together and you get kick-ass acceleration.
Hello you technicians over in this Forum.
I am new her since a week.
Just bought a 2009 MP3 400 LT.
Needs its 18000 kms service.
What can you advice me if I like to tune up my motor performance?
Since it has to go open anyway?
What is clever to replace as well? (preventive)
I own also a MB model 124 Coupé from 1994 with 310000 kms and I always look a bit more foreword if something has to be replaced during maintenance and the machine is open anyway.

Thanks for your advice in advance.
run the dr pulley 16 gram and a 1mm fuzzy washer. the proof is above in the charts and the op posted the results to expect.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21033
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:18 pm quote
excellent job Veeteck. thumbs up to you.
Molto Verboso
Honda CTX 700D
Joined: 16 Aug 2008
Posts: 1304
Location: Louisville, KY
Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:20 pm quote
Re: wow thats nice
AndreNL wrote:
Hello you technicians over in this Forum........What can you advice me if I like to tune up my motor performance? Since it has to go open anyway?
If it is engine performance you want the only thing I know of is the performance camshaft from Malossi. I haven't seen much else in the engine area. Of course there is the ponydrvr airbox modification that allows for better breathing on the inlet side of the motor.

If you want to improve the scoot performance with the existing engine, then Fuzzy washer and Dr. Pulley sliders are your best bet. They are not mutually exclusive as you can see from the graph above.

Things others have done is to use a larger rear tire for longer life and smoother ride and many farkles have been added to suit the operators taste.

You have an excellent choice of rides, do what you want, be safe and enjoy the devil out of it.
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2646
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:10 pm quote
Kudos Veeteck; that was one of the best posts on this topic that I've read.

It's great to have numbers to compare as seat of the pants reports are notorious for reporting improvement the stopwatch doesn't back up.

Now we need you to compare stock engine to ponydrvr airbox mod, malossi cam, Akropovic exhaust, etc, and all combinations of them.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:32 am quote
heinlein wrote:
Kudos Veeteck; that was one of the best posts on this topic that I've read.

It's great to have numbers to compare as seat of the pants reports are notorious for reporting improvement the stopwatch doesn't back up.

Now we need you to compare stock engine to ponydrvr airbox mod, malossi cam, Akropovic exhaust, etc, and all combinations of them.
LOL - you don't want much do ya...
I'm actually eyeballing my Arduino and 3 axis accelerometer module doing nothing at the moment and wondering; do I want to make the effort to rig it up to take continuous data acquisition on the scoot to get even more precise numbers? It's not likely however I'm gonna fool with the airbox - that thing is a RRPITA to get on and off.
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s, Honda Silver Wing
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2646
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:22 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
heinlein wrote:
Kudos Veeteck; that was one of the best posts on this topic that I've read.

It's great to have numbers to compare as seat of the pants reports are notorious for reporting improvement the stopwatch doesn't back up.

Now we need you to compare stock engine to ponydrvr airbox mod, malossi cam, Akropovic exhaust, etc, and all combinations of them.
LOL - you don't want much do ya...
I'm actually eyeballing my Arduino and 3 axis accelerometer module doing nothing at the moment and wondering; do I want to make the effort to rig it up to take continuous data acquisition on the scoot to get even more precise numbers? It's not likely however I'm gonna fool with the airbox - that thing is a RRPITA to get on and off.
I don't care that much about testing the airbox mod anyway as I already have it and don't plan on removing it; but cam and exhaust changes are probably the most susceptible to wild claims when hard numbers aren't available. Put that Arduino to work.
Member
Piaggio X8 400
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:46 am quote
Thanks guys. Nice to see that you liked my numbers

I've measured J.Costa against stock variator and it seems that J.Costa allows the belt to go lower without fuzzy washer. It is 1 mm thinner than stock variator - when fully compressed. This should be an equivalent of fuzzy washer, so I won't try J.Costa with fuzzy washer.

Regarding fuel consumption. I rode one week on each setup and the proportion is simple - the faster you go the more fuel you burn, nothing comes for free. Mileage with J.Costa is approx. 10% worse than stock.

I would like to test other mods, of course. Airbox mod is within my reach. I will not try Malossi as I truly hate that company due to poor quality of their products. Akrapovic is very tempting, but very expensive - it costs 20% of a current value of my machine . It would be more efficient to swap for 500cc from Nexus of Fuoco.

Last but not least - check out time lapse video I made yesterday evening when changing J.Costa for stock variator. 20 minutes in 26 seconds
Ossessionato
LXV 150 Midnight Blue
Joined: 06 Dec 2010
Posts: 2409
Location: Karawang, West Java, Indonesia
Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:07 pm quote
Veeteck wrote:
I've measured J.Costa against stock variator and it seems that J.Costa allows the belt to go lower without fuzzy washer. It is 1 mm thinner than stock variator - when fully compressed. This should be an equivalent of fuzzy washer, so I won't try J.Costa with fuzzy washer.
Funny that Maybe J.Costa spent some time and engineered their product to allow the belt to travel to the lowest possible gear for better take off speed.

Maybe some rpm readings at constant speed is the next step. So that cruising speed for commuting etc can be established.
Addicted
MP3 500, Lambretta GP TS1 225
Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 620
Location: Toronto, Ont
Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:15 pm quote
I'll take a different approach on this. I've got a JCosta with the air box removed and a K&N filter set up. Times down the 1/4 mile track were pretty consistent. 17.6 seconds with a top speed of around 72 -74 miles an hour. I was actually suprised on how fast this went down the track. Next year if I don't buy the 850 I'll put a performance clutch in and see how that does. I'm around 300lbs so if I lose some weight I can see it going at least to the low 17's or high 16's


Cheers,
Tross

When I find some pics I'll post them. Here are some facebook links to video of the race:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151091719760795&comment_id=23851122&notif_t=comment_mention[/url]

The same race from my view:

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=446278428745214&notif_t=like
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