Vespa LX 50 Starting problem
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
Joined: 17 Aug 2012
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Location: Finland
Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:30 am quote
Hi,
I have Vespa LX 50 4T 4V 2010. I am experiencing some starting problems. Last year I had an accident with it on a dirt road, but the damages were only cosmetic. After the repairs its been starting pretty badly. They had somehow got the carburetor heater wire disconnected during the repairs and I thought the problems were caused by that, but then I got the new wire (the order took 50 days to get here), it didn't improve. The problems continued. Now the problem has advanced, when it try to start my Vespa with the electric starter nothing happens (engine is cold). Okay, then the kickstart, it starts but when the primer turns off, so does the Vespa. After few times of doing this I get going, but then the Vespa doesnt take any revs and does 15 mph for about a minute, then when the engine gets warm, everything is normal.

It had the carburetor replaced, but nothing happened, also fuel mixture and idle is ok.

The importer and the maintenance guys are running out of ideas.
Any ideas? Thank in advance
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Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:10 pm quote
What exactly do you mean by 'electric start...nothing happens'? Nothing at all? No noise? What?
Member
Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Location: Finland
Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:37 pm quote
RE: Vespa LX 50 Starting problem
Everything seems to be okay when I try to start it electrically. Its as its just too cold to start. I thats why it doesn't start. When the motor is warm none of these problems occur. Within a hour and a half from turning off the engine it start normally and has normal revs, but after that, as the engine is colder all these problems return.

So the electric starter sound is ok and with a warm engine it works fine.

Could there be something mechanically wrong in the engine department?
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:43 am quote
just guessing, check auto choke! dunno if it has one
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:03 am quote
If it hadn't got one, that would effect the kick-start too.

First things first, check the battery condition. Using the kick-start, it only needs to provide enough current to operate the auto-choke. A battery that can do that may still be too weak to operate the starter motor vigorously enough.
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:55 am quote
(a year ago) same problem with my scoot...a friend told me to check the choke terminals...looks ok though but when i pulled them off and look at terminals inside one of the male terminals was pushed downwards therby not getting enough contact with it's female counterpart.
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:57 am quote
The actual problem is keeping the engine running after getting it started, in the morning with the kickstart and if its been sitting in the sun for a half a day then with the electric starter. The idle is ok, but the engine stops running after the auto choke stops giving richer fuel after about 20 seconds, you can hear this very clearly from the sound.

And then when you try to start again sometimes you need 5 to 10 kicks with the kickstart. And in case if you get it running by keeping your hand on the gas and then start to drive with the Vespa, it does 15mph for 1 minute from getting it permanently started.
So really weird.

The maintenance guy suggested that he would enlarge the hole that gas flows threw in the old carburetor and try that if it works. But I believe there are many many other Vespas working just fine with regular size carburetor holes, so the problem must be somewhere else and of course must be traced.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:48 am quote
FIN did it do this when you got it or has it progressed slowly over the last few years? I think the only thing on mine we haven't done is fool around with the auto choke. All of the 150's over here seem to do the same thing and they seem to get worse as it gets older. Also getting the idle tuned on these guys seems to be hard to do. I'm convinced once you start fooling around with it you end up chasing your tail. Doesn't do it on the 200's but the 150's seem to have this problem. We did my valves etc and i still does it. Mine does the same as yours and i have a newish battery. I've given up and just warm it up for a few minutes and then it's fine. KITZ that might be the problem. Will have the guys look at it when we do another workshop. Wonder if it comes loose over time? New the bike started up and ran fine but the symptoms got worse the older the scoot got. Good luck
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Location: Finland
Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:05 am quote
Thanks for your help.
The problems first appeared last year after the damage from the crash was fixed and has been getting worse during this summer. And this problem with the revs and low top speed for a minute is occurred this year. Did I understand right that you are also familiar with this rev problem.
Vespas in Finland are limited and mine did 30mph when it was new but when this rev problem occurred it does only 27mph.

My friend has also a 2010 Vespa identical to mine, his one is only black and he has done nearly 11 000 miles on it and no starting problems have occurred.

And what do you mean by KITZ?
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:13 am quote
KITZ54 name of the person who posted about the auto choke. Sorry to confuse you. Yes mine does it as well. When i first start it it idles fine but when i pull back on the throttle it stalls. If i let it idle for a few minutes it seems to help it. I can pull back on the throttle and it doesn't stall but i have to let it warm up. The other 2 150's that are in my group over here do the same thing but mine is older and i need a few more minutes.We have done everything ( except pull the auto choke)to the carb and it still does it. We didn't pull the auto choke to see if everything is seated well but KITZ may be on to something. It does sound like it could be the auto choke doesn't it?
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:19 am quote
No, they fail "choke on" (their normal cold unattended condition). So starting wouldn't be a problem, but you'd have massive over-richness when warmed up.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:25 am quote
So JIM, would the "over richness" cause the stalling?
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:31 am quote
judy wrote:
So JIM, would the "over richness" cause the stalling?
If the stalling goes away after a few minutes (i.e. when warmed up) then it's not the auto-choke - it could conceivably be a high resistance connection to it, but this would be a rarity if it stayed the same HR over a period of time, let alone one ride.
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:31 am quote
Okay . I have also noticed warming up the Vespa is the only do you can do now, but it is very frustrating when you want to leave the parking space for a ride and have to wait a few minutes, also after a few minutes the Vespa is still pretty lazy to accelerate. There must be a solution.
Also keeping the throttle down to prevent it from stalling lets the back wheel spin in full revs (when the Vespa is on the center stand), which is according to my understanding not a good thing. Also when I push the Vespa of the stand and put the throttle down it stalls, so the engine is really revless when its cold.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:34 am quote
If the battery and its connections have been proven 'good', then it could be the valves need adjusting.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:37 am quote
Valves were checked and were fine. Suppose we could do it again but the right tools were used and people have good mechanical skills ( i didn't touch it ).
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:38 am quote
What could the valves have why they would need adjusting?
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:48 am quote
Depending on which way they're out they can cause just this symptom (of hard starting or poor cool running). I've cured many a 125 where this is always the first suspect - and there's no reason why it shouldn't be the same in the 50.
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:01 am quote
Okay, the bad revs were also fixed with this? Could you simplify a bit how this valve thing should be handled, so I know what to tell the guys at the garage.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:40 am quote
The workshop manual (admittedly the USA version, but it makes no odds) gives the clearances as:

lx50valves.gif

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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:50 am quote
What do I tell the guys at the garage, they obviously can loo those from somewhere, but what do they have to do. I dont want to try adjust mechanical things in the Vespa, my knowledge is not that advanced
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:56 am quote
If the garage have worked on any engines, that should be all they'll need to know. If they've never worked on an LX 50 before, let them know it's easier to swing the engine down by releasing the rear suspension from its bottom mount - taking great care not to stress any wires, HT lead in particular. That makes access to the rocker cover easier - at least it does on the LX150, and I see no reason why that shouldn't also be the case on the LX50.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:20 am quote
Thanks. So I tell them to adjust the valves then.
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:49 am quote
It's what I'd try next, if the carb, electrics and battery have been eliminated.
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:52 pm quote
judy wrote:
Valves were checked and were fine. Suppose we could do it again but the right tools were used and people have good mechanical skills ( i didn't touch it ).
@judy, since your valves had been checked an adjusted, try checking the connectors of the choke that is clamp to the body, pull it off and look inside the terminals, specially the male prongs, as i have said earlier in mine, one was pushed downwards.

no harm in checking
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:37 pm quote
The valve adjustment could make sense, because this low rev problem really seems mechanical.

kitz, did you have also the rev problems and checking the terminals fixed them?
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:01 pm quote
finnishvespisti wrote:
The valve adjustment could make sense, because this low rev problem really seems mechanical.

kitz, did you have also the rev problems and checking the terminals fixed them?
your problem may be different from mine,


hard starting in the morning....almost draining my battery...so...i use the kickstart, minimum of 6-15 kicks before it starts sometimes more!..must follow up on throttle when it does start or it dies(got a weak battery back then) but when warm up....runs smooth.

and when the engine is cold again, will take some time though...symptoms persist!
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:05 pm quote
The starting thing is exactly the same. Did you try to start to drive during the engine was cold and during you turned the throttle to prevent in from turning off?
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:16 pm quote
i don't do that....very bad for the engine.

the first thing i learned about engines even before i learned to drive is to warm engine before taking off.

this lets lubricant to circulate engine.
Hooked
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Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:48 pm quote
metal expands when it heats up...therefore if the engine is cold, it can cause wear to internal components over certain period of time and your engine won't last as long. The oil also needs time to warm up to provide the proper lubrication.

besides when you take off with a cold engine you will experience some kind of a held back feeling with your motor.
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:17 am quote
Okay. So this checking of the terminal can I by my self?
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:33 am quote
kitz54 wrote:
i don't do that....very bad for the engine.

the first thing i learned about engines even before i learned to drive is to warm engine before taking off.

This is NOT true (especially with modern lubricants). The engine takes far longer to warm up at idle than when revved up a bit, so actually extra wear. Riding off straight away is fine - just take it easy for the first km or so.
Hooked
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:53 am quote
i do rev up a bit even upon starting, and it is also true that todays lubricant are far more better than what they used too.

it is also true you can drive off even with a cold engine by slowly revving, but even at a low rpm you could still feel that held back feeling of a cold engine and i don't like that, it feels like i'm stressing the motor. honestly i do this sometimes when in a hurry.

it is ok to drive off slowly even when cold but it will depends on a couple of factors, first is weight of load and power of engine.

let us assume the rider to be a 6'2" 240lbs fatass riding his scoot an lx50, taking off on a cold engine pulling the weight of the rider+ weight of machine even on a slow rev would put a lot of stress on the engine. (even warm engine would struggle with that load )

again assuming a 90lbs lady riding a gts300 on a cold engine revving slowly, the stress would be different.


what i do or rather do is this.

start cold then rev slowly on the center stand, this way you will not stress the engine because the only weight that the engine is pulling is the rear wheel. when you do it this way you can rev it on a higher rpm thereby warming the engine faster.
if in a hurry ride on!
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:00 am quote
KITZ the symptoms you describe are exactly the same as mine. I'll have the guys check it out the next time we do something to him. I just let mine idle for a few minutes and your right if i stay someplace more than 2 or 3 hours i have to let it warm up again. Sounds like yours is the same FINN. Thanks for the info . The other 150's over here are starting to have the same problems. Wonder if it's a problem that's starting to develop with them? None of the 200's have this problem and their carbed. Did yours do it at higher miles and once it was more than 2yrs old KITZ? Good luck FINN.
Hooked
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:17 am quote
got 18k++ on a 2000 pre leader engine
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:28 am quote
Thanks. So it does seem over time they come a bit loose. Thanks and i gave ya some positive karma to combat those nasty x's.
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Vespa LX 50 4T 4V
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:01 am quote
Better is what's shown on page 36 of the parts manual. Also worth reading the workshop manual...
http://manuals.wotmeworry.org.uk/More%20Manuals/Vespa/
Hooked
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Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:31 pm quote
@judy & fin,

the problem with my scoot may be different from your's. mine is just a simple case of hard starting, and sometimes....with the auto choke on the modern vespa we tend to overlook this problem and try to search elsewhere for a solution to a very simple problem.

in a different situation, like my other scoot with a mechanical choke it is routine to engage the choke every time i do a cold start up. hence on an auto choke we seldom forget or never even think about it. and whenever the problem of hard starting occurs we never thought about it.
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Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:55 am quote
I would bet it is a clogged idle jet, it has such a small orifice that you can barely see light through it even as new.

Eli veikkaisin tyhjäkäyntisuutinta.
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