Vespa GTR 350 will arrive in 2014
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Petty Tyrant
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Fri Oct 05, 2012 2:21 pm quote
Oxford Baggs wrote:
Oops, my bad. I forgot that you are a Piaggio / Vespa engineer.
You're already on thin ice here. Is this really a fight you want to pick?
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Fri Oct 05, 2012 3:15 pm quote
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:55 am quote
gogogordy wrote:
slomojoe wrote:
Not to micturate on anyone's parade (including mine, as i would LOVE the 350 GTR to be real), but browsing around that site strongly suggests that it belongs to some dude with a minor track record of automotive writing, with minimal if any access to real insider info. Pretty much a rumor site, like you can find hundreds about things like Apple products, videogames etc. I would not hold my breath.
Do you mean like the weeks and weeks worth of unauthorized speculation about an iPhone 5 Apple wasn't making any noise about?

Till they introduced it, anyway....
I don't think anyone doubts that a Vespa with a more powerful and possibly larger-than-278cc engine will be put in production at some point in the relatively near future. I would also imagine that fairly accurate rumors of this new model will emerge before its actual production.

I was just cautioning that that particular site does not seem the most reliable, that's all. Heck, just a few weeks ago they had uncritically posted the exact specs of the Vespa 946. Their source: Modern Vespa!
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 5:02 am quote
jess wrote:
Oxford Baggs wrote:
Oops, my bad. I forgot that you are a Piaggio / Vespa engineer.
You're already on thin ice here. Is this really a fight you want to pick?
I'm not picking any fight. I just wonder why you think that you can second guess that company's engineers. I think that it is a fair question.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:01 am quote
slomojoe wrote:
gogogordy wrote:
slomojoe wrote:
Not to micturate on anyone's parade (including mine, as i would LOVE the 350 GTR to be real), but browsing around that site strongly suggests that it belongs to some dude with a minor track record of automotive writing, with minimal if any access to real insider info. Pretty much a rumor site, like you can find hundreds about things like Apple products, videogames etc. I would not hold my breath.
Do you mean like the weeks and weeks worth of unauthorized speculation about an iPhone 5 Apple wasn't making any noise about?

Till they introduced it, anyway....
I don't think anyone doubts that a Vespa with a more powerful and possibly larger-than-278cc engine will be put in production at some point in the relatively near future. I would also imagine that fairly accurate rumors of this new model will emerge before its actual production.

I was just cautioning that that particular site does not seem the most reliable, that's all. Heck, just a few weeks ago they had uncritically posted the exact specs of the Vespa 946. Their source: Modern Vespa!
Past history typically predicts future action.

Piaggio uses the same engine platforms in multiple vehicles. The development costs are too high to use the new 330cc mill in say, just the BV350....a lower volume product than say the Vespa which is arguably the darling of Piaggio's products. Its legacy.

The Quasar engine is used in the large Vespa, the Mp3 250, the Aprilia large wheeled 250, the Piaggio BV250 etc. There is no reason whatsoever not to expect the same with this new, and well engineered engine. It will be the springboard for the next batch of Piaggio vehicles going forward.

Couple that with the fact that they HAVE to continue to evolve the product offerings, or cease to exist. New colors, special editions, and trim packages only satisfy buyers for so long, but also serve to buy time for the manufacturers while new, really new product is developed.

Thats just the way it is.

I dont claim to have inside info, or base MY opinion on a blogger in Italy (anymore than I believe everything I read on MV). But all you have to do is look at the way things are done across the board in the world of PTW and automobile manufacturing (and other sectors) to realize its a natural evolution, a manufacturing economics necessity, and "time" for a new Vespa, whenever
that is. ( The current stable of large modern Vespa is now approaching 9 years on the market starting with the GT200L....)

Believe, or dont believe what you wish...but to think Piaggio has a new and more efficient, yet more powerful engine on the shelf, and DON'T intend to use it in as many applications as possible is naive.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:11 am quote
Thanks!
You're making sense out of the speculation!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:22 am quote
Zagato wrote:
Now, Vespa shows a picture of an engine with not chassis or anything else and we're analysing the front wheel wobble
Vespa shows a picture of an engine?

If we're referring to the picture in the fan-boy blog that the first posting linked to ... That's a BV 350 engine/drivetrain. That guy has been posting a BV 350 engine picture, in one form or another, on just about every "Vespa 350" blog entry.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:42 am quote
Oxford Baggs wrote:
jess wrote:
Oxford Baggs wrote:
Oops, my bad. I forgot that you are a Piaggio / Vespa engineer.
You're already on thin ice here. Is this really a fight you want to pick?
I'm not picking any fight. I just wonder why you think that you can second guess that company's engineers. I think that it is a fair question.
It would only be second-guessing if the engineers in question had stated a different opinion. And since they haven't, your accusation is misplaced. Further, I've actually pulled the front wheel off and looked at how the disk brake fits into the wheel. It's not exactly rocket science.
Resident Grump
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:52 am quote
jess wrote:
I've actually pulled the front wheel off and looked at how the disk brake fits into the wheel. It's not exactly rocket science.
At least once.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:02 am quote
...but...i ask: ...where it ends the "Vespa" concept understood as simple scooter and begins the maxiscooter... You can still call and be Vespa..?
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:04 am quote
gogogordy wrote:
Piaggio uses the same engine platforms in multiple vehicles. The development costs are too high to use the new 330cc mill in say, just the BV350....a lower volume product than say the Vespa which is arguably the darling of Piaggio's products. Its legacy.
I do think it's inevitable that the new engine will make its way into a Vespa largeframe. My lament is more focused on the fact that most people conflate progress with "big". The GTS250/300 could certainly use more oomph, and in fact the existing mill was capable of delivering that oomph -- Malossi proved it.

So mostly I question the wisdom of jumping from the anemic GTS250/300 (with 21-ish HP) to a 330cc mill producing 33 HP. What I'd much prefer to see is a restyled GTS, no bigger or heavier than the existing one, with maybe 25hp coming from the new engine. To do so, though, they'd have to dial back the new mill to 250cc (or so) which is completely unacceptable from a marketing perspective. Again, people conflate "progress" with "big", and going back to 250cc is, for idiotic psychological reasons, probably not going to happen.

So Piaggio is now backed into a corner. In order to continue to evolve the product line, they have little choice but to make the GTS bigger and fatter in order to accommodate an oversized engine and to position this hypothetical new largeframe in the market.

I'm actually kind of holding out hope that if they lose the GTS moniker (going with GTR, as suggested earlier) that they can "reset" the CC level back to 250.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:09 am quote
Ciao Jess! E' sempre un piacere leggerti.--> It's always a pleasure to read you.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:24 am quote
As long as we don't see a maxi-scooter 16" wheeled Vespa. I'm not extremely worried about them getting too big for the iconic style.

As to top speed issues for 12"-13" wheels. Would it be possible for them to tune the slider weights and gearing to keep the top speed similar to the GTS 300? Thus greatly improving the acceleration without introducing additional high speed, small wheel stability issues? My limited understanding is greater mid to upper end acceleration would be a welcome change for some GTS owners. While top speed is a non-issue.

I'm not trying to cause a fight. I'm not making wild claims as if I'm an expert scooter engineer. I'm just wondering if it's technically possible that Vespa might bring us the GTR as a machine that doesn't fall too far into the "bigger is better trap". A way for Piaggio to keep the manufacturing efficiencies of sharing an engine and tooling across the Piaggio and Vespa (and probably other) brands and not damage the Vespa brand.

Is it possible?
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:35 am quote
The problem is that Piaggio not only sells in U.S.A. ...must build for other markets,with different parameters.
You lose sight of the overall situation;in Italy there is much debate about this situation and also for our motorcycles.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:51 am quote
Is it too early to start a "I don't own a Vespa 350 GTS Rally" thread?
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:51 am quote
jess wrote:
Pepy27 wrote:
All this negative vibe towards a larger engined GT sounds like the same trad bashing of the original auto Vespa's to me........I personally love progress even if I don't always buy it
I love progress too. More HP, even.

Bigger is not progress, though.
That's quite subjective, one could argue that more HP isn't progress either.
It all depends on what you personally want from your scooter/bike.
I love the old style of my GTV but would love more ooooomph and top end without having to buy a Manga scoot.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:07 am quote
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice

VespaGTS350NEW.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:19 am quote
jess wrote:
gogogordy wrote:
Piaggio uses the same engine platforms in multiple vehicles. The development costs are too high to use the new 330cc mill in say, just the BV350....a lower volume product than say the Vespa which is arguably the darling of Piaggio's products. Its legacy.
I do think it's inevitable that the new engine will make its way into a Vespa largeframe. My lament is more focused on the fact that most people conflate progress with "big". The GTS250/300 could certainly use more oomph, and in fact the existing mill was capable of delivering that oomph -- Malossi proved it.

So mostly I question the wisdom of jumping from the anemic GTS250/300 (with 21-ish HP) to a 330cc mill producing 33 HP. What I'd much prefer to see is a restyled GTS, no bigger or heavier than the existing one, with maybe 25hp coming from the new engine....

I'm actually kind of holding out hope that if they lose the GTS moniker (going with GTR, as suggested earlier) that they can "reset" the CC level back to 250.
Well, for what it's worth, you've convinced me.

I've been a fan of the idea of the GTR because the 278cc was not, to me, a significant enough performance improvement over the 244cc. So the 330cc to me represented that improvement. But it is a performance improvement that i'm looking for and would buy. It need not be a bigger engine than currently available.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:08 pm quote
I haven't even taken delivery of my new 300 and I'm getting excited. I'll start saving now.

I'm glad it's 2014 and not next year though.

And R probably stands for 'really!'
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:35 pm quote
AngryAmish wrote:
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice
LOL nice photoshop.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:41 pm quote
Attila wrote:
...but...i ask: ...where it ends the "Vespa" concept understood as simple scooter and begins the maxiscooter... You can still call and be Vespa..?
As long as Piaggio sells it and calls it a Vespa, that's what it is.

Now whether we die-hard fans feel it's in the same spirit of what we think a Vespa should be... that's entirely open to opinion.

Even I remember how crazy people went when the ET came out, and I was barely in the scooter scene at that point.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:49 pm quote
I think gogo would be happy if his Vespa went.
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:50 pm quote
Ok .enough . I have a bv 350 .if someone gives me a complete Gt gts frame I will try and make my vespa special . Complete minus engine .o and be in the western us so I can pick-up .come on some ons that doesn't Owen a bv donate .
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:56 pm quote
Zagato wrote:
Lets see....Vespa shows the Quarantasei and the feedback here was "There's no centerstand! Impossible!"

Now, Vespa shows a picture of an engine with not chassis or anything else and we're analysing the front wheel wobble
Isn't if the same engine as the BV350?

Edit: Forget it I confused.

Last edited by Covert on Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:16 pm quote
My $0.02.

The BV350 motor can as surley go into a Vespa frame as a GTS 250 motor goes into a BV250 frame.

Only difference is the swing arm length.

The new motor may be larger in some dimension by millimeters, but it really is not much larger.

I think the delay is trying to devise a way to give the Vespa the new motor without losing ride-ability.

33HP on 12 inch wheels would be harrowing...IMHO. And a 130x70x12 tire would last about, what, 1500-1800 miles? Not what the general public wants.

Find a tire that works with decent mileage, maybe a 13 inch tire in the rear, and improve the suspension for the added power.

Shorten the stroke and it will spin better and still have plenty of power, say 300cc....27hp.....how about the GTS300RS-MAXplus11.

"If they build it, we will come."

LOL

R
Hooked
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:39 pm quote
Ypes 350 has Ben fitted in a lammey a 250 Eli gts was to.
I have a welder and good welding skills . And a can do attuned . I may not be the best speller .
Hooked
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:50 pm quote
If I were going to trans plant the power unit it would go in with the tire that's on it now. The frame would be cut behind the shocks so the tire would claar . Probley loose the pet carrier . The bv head set would be used . Fuel tank in pet carrier space exhaust would need to be 're worked /lowered . As for the front end . It would be a trile run to see if the length helped or if it would need sorting .anything is possible .

Build it it will run.
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:55 am quote
I had a 125 TS, a 125 PX, a 250 Beverly and a 400 scarabeo(Beo);i like Vespa but my body types is small then the last duescooter had were Yamaha.Certainly the next one will be a Beverly 350 but is its size.For me up to 250 cc Vespa was already balanced, even 300 cc saw that Honda SH 300 cc has more horsepower and displacement itself ,i don't understand where it ends up true agility scooter if it becomes extralarge.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:52 am quote
glasseye wrote:
My $0.02.

The BV350 motor can as surley go into a Vespa frame as a GTS 250 motor goes into a BV250 frame.

Only difference is the swing arm length.

The new motor may be larger in some dimension by millimeters, but it really is not much larger.

I think the delay is trying to devise a way to give the Vespa the new motor without losing ride-ability.

33HP on 12 inch wheels would be harrowing...IMHO. And a 130x70x12 tire would last about, what, 1500-1800 miles? Not what the general public wants.

Find a tire that works with decent mileage, maybe a 13 inch tire in the rear, and improve the suspension for the added power.

Shorten the stroke and it will spin better and still have plenty of power, say 300cc....27hp.....how about the GTS300RS-MAXplus11.

"If they build it, we will come."

LOL

R
I'd back this idea as well.
Enthusiast
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:53 am quote
For what it's worth, even if they have to design a new body/frame rather than just change the swing-arm length... that may not be a bad thing. One of the very few things that bothers me about my Vespa GTS 250 is how far forward the passenger foot-pegs are. When riding two up, I always seem to step on the toes of the person I'm riding with when I come to a stop and put my feet down. I can't be the only one who has had this complaint and I'm optimistic that they can correct this for the GTR.
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:42 am quote
abbothenderson wrote:
I can't be the only one who has had this complaint and I'm optimistic that they can correct this for the GTR.
I'm optimistic as well, regardless of what engine it gets. It's odd that the GT/S is so wide at that point as there's really no need for it.
Ossessionato
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 12:51 pm quote
abbothenderson wrote:
For what it's worth, even if they have to design a new body/frame rather than just change the swing-arm length... that may not be a bad thing. One of the very few things that bothers me about my Vespa GTS 250 is how far forward the passenger foot-pegs are. When riding two up, I always seem to step on the toes of the person I'm riding with when I come to a stop and put my feet down. I can't be the only one who has had this complaint and I'm optimistic that they can correct this for the GTR.
A well known problem - the fix for a lot of GTS riders is the full wrap-around crash bars, where the passenger can rest their feet on the front bar, which effectively becomes an off set foot rest. The sage green GTS on this thread shows them well... Question About Rear Chrome Crash Bars for GTS

No denying the design flaw with the footrests as they are though It would be good it a new design fixed this but I guess it's quite well down the designers list. On the Quarantasei prototype, it looks like there's a deliberate lip to the front of the side panels that could serve as a footrest, though the seat doesn't look designed to be comfortable for two...

Vespa-46-3.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:22 pm quote
jess wrote:
gogogordy wrote:
Piaggio uses the same engine platforms in multiple vehicles. The development costs are too high to use the new 330cc mill in say, just the BV350....a lower volume product than say the Vespa which is arguably the darling of Piaggio's products. Its legacy.
I do think it's inevitable that the new engine will make its way into a Vespa largeframe. My lament is more focused on the fact that most people conflate progress with "big". The GTS250/300 could certainly use more oomph, and in fact the existing mill was capable of delivering that oomph -- Malossi proved it.

So mostly I question the wisdom of jumping from the anemic GTS250/300 (with 21-ish HP) to a 330cc mill producing 33 HP. What I'd much prefer to see is a restyled GTS, no bigger or heavier than the existing one, with maybe 25hp coming from the new engine. To do so, though, they'd have to dial back the new mill to 250cc (or so) which is completely unacceptable from a marketing perspective. Again, people conflate "progress" with "big", and going back to 250cc is, for idiotic psychological reasons, probably not going to happen.

So Piaggio is now backed into a corner. In order to continue to evolve the product line, they have little choice but to make the GTS bigger and fatter in order to accommodate an oversized engine and to position this hypothetical new largeframe in the market.

I'm actually kind of holding out hope that if they lose the GTS moniker (going with GTR, as suggested earlier) that they can "reset" the CC level back to 250.
I agree with you Jess! I know a lot about bicycle drivetrain systems and Shimano would never go back to 8 speed now that they are at 10 speed. Even if the 8 speed shifting system was less problematic in all conditions, and even lighter. It's called marketing plain and simple. "Mine goes to 11" and all that.

The old adage of "Get a motorcycle" does ring true in this debate. Although I will look forward to what Vespa brings to the plate in the future.
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:10 pm quote
But I have a motorcycle as well as the GTV........I'd still like more oooomph and top end from my Vespa
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Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:43 pm quote
bendcyclist wrote:
I agree with you Jess! I know a lot about bicycle drivetrain systems and Shimano would never go back to 8 speed now that they are at 10 speed. Even if the 8 speed shifting system was less problematic in all conditions, and even lighter. It's called marketing plain and simple. "Mine goes to 11" and all that.

The old adage of "Get a motorcycle" does ring true in this debate. Although I will look forward to what Vespa brings to the plate in the future.
Oh but they did go to 11, in June!

Of course, Campy has been at 11 since 2008...


and yes, it is a bitch to properly adjust and maintain them.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:00 am quote
rgconner wrote:
bendcyclist wrote:
I agree with you Jess! I know a lot about bicycle drivetrain systems and Shimano would never go back to 8 speed now that they are at 10 speed. Even if the 8 speed shifting system was less problematic in all conditions, and even lighter. It's called marketing plain and simple. "Mine goes to 11" and all that.

The old adage of "Get a motorcycle" does ring true in this debate. Although I will look forward to what Vespa brings to the plate in the future.
Oh but they did go to 11, in June!

Of course, Campy has been at 11 since 2008...


and yes, it is a bitch to properly adjust and maintain them.
I guess it's just a coinkidink that I've never seen so many dropped/jammed chains in the Pro Circuit as I've seen this year.

I'm happy I used to be a track guy, I didn't even use a lock ring for time trials.

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Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:00 am quote
In all of this discussion, no one has yet addressed the most important issue, upon which many a buying decision depends: will it be available in red?
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Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:07 am quote
PeterC wrote:
In all of this discussion, no one has yet addressed the most important issue, upon which many a buying decision depends: will it be available in red?
I'd say it's slightly better than a 50/50 chance.

Just over half of the modern models have been available in red: ET, LX, S, and GTS/Super (those are close enough I count them as the same, in this instance).

Slightly less than half have not: GT, LXV, and GTV.

If I had to guess, I'd say yes. Because everybody loves a red scooter. Especially a Vespa.
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Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:12 am quote
Witch wrote:
PeterC wrote:
In all of this discussion, no one has yet addressed the most important issue, upon which many a buying decision depends: will it be available in red?
I'd say it's slightly better than a 50/50 chance.

Just over half of the modern models have been available in red: ET, LX, S, and GTS/Super (those are close enough I count them as the same, in this instance).

Slightly less than half have not: GT, LXV, and GTV.

If I had to guess, I'd say yes. Because everybody loves a red scooter. Especially a Vespa.
That settles it; I'm in!
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Wed Sep 03, 2014 9:00 am quote
2014 is almost over

I guess no 350 GTS?
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