Increase Performance of MP3 400
Post Reply    Forum -> MP3 Discussion 12Next
Author Message
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:32 am quote
G'day All,

I am the very proud owner of a MP3 400 and have recently purchased a campervan weighing in at 110 klg (242 pound). While it tows as straight as a die, I am wanting to improve the scooters performance.

I will be changing the rollers to sliders and looking at purchasing a sports exhaust, more efficient air filter and I believe there are special spark plugs available to improve over all performance.

Has anyone on this forum had any experience in this field?

Any ideas/suggestions anyone has to offer would be greatly appreciated.

Leigh
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:08 am quote
what are you looking for with beter performance higher top speed or a better start


better start changing to Dr Pulley


higher top end buy a Cylinder and a piston from the X9 500 (460cc) and fit it
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:12 am quote
The Fuzzy washer would be a good addition as well. As we were reminded in another thread the Fuzzy washer - Dr. Pulley slider combo work well together.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:50 am quote
Thank you for the response. Having read but not understanding the workings of the fuzzy washer, not being technically advanced, I think it best I get my local Piaggio dealer mechanic have a look at the postings.

When conditions are right, the scooter will tow the camper at 100 kph topped out. If there is a slight rise, the speed drops down to a point where I feel I should get off the scooter and run beside it, not quite that bad but, let's face it, the hills are a problem.

More HP, more torque, I guess is what I am wanting.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 6082
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:13 am quote
The fuzzy washer simply works like putting transmission in lower gear. This gives better acceleration and more torque to rear wheel. It would be especially helpful in your case of pulling trailer and give you more speed climbing hills. From your description you definitely need the lower gear on hills. May even want to go a step further to 1.5mm washer. ( Most common fuzzy washer is 1.0mm) Without the trailer it will be a more sporty ride than stock. In either case to either Dr. Pulley should be installed and use the lower weight sliders.

Most mechanics shy away from the washer but it has been the rare member here who hasn't appreciated improved performance.

Please show us some pictures of your trailer and connection to MP3.
Molto Verboso
2012 BV 350, 2013 BMW C650 GT, 2015 Indian Chieftain
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 1726
Location: Brentwood, TN
Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:16 am quote
I don't have any performance suggestions, but would love to see pictures of your rig, including close ups of your hitch. Thanks.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:57 am quote
more hp and torque then you upgrade the 400cc to a 500

both will fit the 460 and the 492.7 from the Fuoco the last one wil give you 481cc due to the different stroke

update the mapping then form your mp3 to the Fuoco

total cost when you do it yourself about 350 euro
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:38 am quote
aussie41353 wrote:
Thank you for the response. Having read but not understanding the workings of the fuzzy washer, not being technically advanced, I think it best I get my local Piaggio dealer mechanic have a look at the postings.
I think you would have an easier time understanding the Fuzzy washer if you disregard this post. Fuzzy Washer Hypothesis

In MY OPINION the hypothesis is wrong; but at the least it is unproven at this time; while the Dr. Pulley sliders - Fuzzy washer combo has been shown to be effective. Fuzzy washer, Dr.Pulley, J.Costa comparison, with numbers
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Location: Carmichael, CA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:56 am quote
You might also want to look at ponydrvr's airbox modification:

Airbox modifications

Cheers!

John
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:14 am quote
Scewter wrote:
You might also want to look at ponydrvr's airbox modification:

Airbox modifications

Cheers!

John
+1 Can't believe I forgot to tell him about it.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:16 am quote
Dr-Pulley and a washer dont give more power it adjust the RPM range how high the belt will run and the clutch will grip nothing more

Only an other airfilter or airfiltrmod will give another sound not any increase of power or pulling power it just sounds that way Tested on a Dyno

it only works if you do more flow the head, flow the injectionhouse, install a Akra and another mapping other wise the airfilter mod is useless for what he wants
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 6082
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:53 am quote
Maksor wrote:
Dr-Pulley and a washer dont give more power it adjust the RPM range how high the belt will run and the clutch will grip nothing more

Only an other airfilter or airfiltrmod will give another sound not any increase of power or pulling power it just sounds that way Tested on a Dyno

it only works if you do more flow the head, flow the injectionhouse, install a Akra and another mapping other wise the airfilter mod is useless for what he wants
Not more power at same rpm, but with higher rpm and lower gear there is more torque at rear wheel. It is more power than lower rpm in higher gear. Power from engine increases with rpm.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:11 am quote
No to get more torque you need to increase HP

what the washers does is adjusting the RPM range by setting the belt lower there for you get you max torque of 37Nm at lower RPM


the Torque and HP stay the same the torgue at the rearwheel is about 26nm you loose a lot due to the belt
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:43 pm quote
install a Akra and another mapping? Coming across terms I'ver never heard of before what is an Akra and mapping?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 20492
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:51 pm quote
aussie41353 wrote:
install a Akra and another mapping? Coming across terms I'ver never heard of before what is an Akra and mapping?
Akra is short for Akrapovic which is a slip on exhaust. This reduces the heavy ass can that piaggio uses, simple to install and simple to remove when servicing the rear wheel.

Mapping is the software mapping in the ECU for the program of the fuel/air mixture in the Fuel injection system.
Enthusiast
BMW K1600 sidecar racer
Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 67
Location: Maui Piaggio Centre
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:08 pm quote
Want more power and torque
If you want more torque and power=BMW 650 scooter or equivalent bigger motor with all the weights being relatively nearly the same. 550 pounds
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:10 pm quote
The Akra, the airbox mod, and remapping as a package are effective; by themselves the gains are negligible.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:11 pm quote
Okay, thank you for that, much appreciated. That is the same exhaust I have asked my shop to order for me.

In August of each year, I take part in a Motorcycle charity ride called the Black Dog Ride, from Perth, in Western Australia to Alice Springs in the Northern Territory. Last year I went on to Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne, returning home to Perth, some 13,000 kilometres.

This year I will be going up to Catherine then across to Mt Isa and Cairns in Queensland then down the east coast before heading back home to Perth. This will be a touch over 18,000 kilometres and will be towing the camper trailer behind the scooter. My daily blog on last years trip is at http://redcentreandbeyond.yolasite.com/
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 6082
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:14 pm quote
Maksor wrote:
No to get more torque you need to increase HP

what the washers does is adjusting the RPM range by setting the belt lower there for you get you max torque of 37Nm at lower RPM


the Torque and HP stay the same the torgue at the rearwheel is about 26nm you loose a lot due to the belt
I'm not talking engine torque, but torque at rear wheel. Acceleration is much better with washer. That is only possible with more torque at the wheel to get it turning faster.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:49 pm quote
Camper Trailer Photograph

She's on http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IPxEywbIPTI

Camper 4.jpg
The hitch has been engineered by Classic Engineers, Queensland, Australia. I believe they export world wide

Molto Verboso
2012 BV 350, 2013 BMW C650 GT, 2015 Indian Chieftain
Joined: 20 Feb 2009
Posts: 1726
Location: Brentwood, TN
Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:50 am quote
Thanks for the pic and the video - that is a big rig to be pulling.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1290
Location: Utah
Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:45 am quote
aussie41353 wrote:
Camper Trailer
It appears you have a tent pop-up with a tripod stabilizer legs for your trailer. How does it look when fully deployed. Pictures of it would be appreciated.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1290
Location: Utah
Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:47 am quote
TN_Sooner wrote:
I don't have any performance suggestions, but would love to see pictures of your rig, including close ups of your hitch. Thanks.
Here is a close-up until then.

hitch.jpg

Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:54 am quote
looks like its connected to the tubberware nothing like mine hitch





[img]
[/img]
Bracketmeister
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:17 am quote
I certainly would not suggest that my knowledge of the MP3 is anything approaching that of Maksor or Fuzzy, but I think a clarification is in order. When Maksor said
>the Torque and HP stay the same
that is, as a generalization, incorrect (it may well be true for this particular situation, but not as a universal rule). There are many ways to change rear wheel torque while keeping the power the same...changing tires, for a start.

But OTOH, the OP's original complaint was that he could only get up to 100 kph and could not get up a hill. Torque changes the dynamic way in which the bike gets to its top speed, but top speed itself is a static equation: it's the point at which power lost equals power added. If you are on the front side of the power curve, you can increase maximum speed by decreasing mechanical advantage (i.e. lowering your torque, e.g. larger tire, greater ratio etc.). But since the OP is already on the back side of the power curve (no extra untapped power to add) the only way to increase top speed is, ultimately, power not torque. Either more power in (increase in displacement, efficiency, or both), or less power drained (like disconnecting the trailer ).
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Location: Carmichael, CA
Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:10 am quote
rjeffb wrote:
I certainly would not suggest that my knowledge of the MP3 is anything approaching that of Maksor or Fuzzy, but I think a clarification is in order. When Maksor said
>the Torque and HP stay the same
that is, as a generalization, incorrect (it may well be true for this particular situation, but not as a universal rule). There are many ways to change rear wheel torque while keeping the power the same...changing tires, for a start.

But OTOH, the OP's original complaint was that he could only get up to 100 kph and could not get up a hill. Torque changes the dynamic way in which the bike gets to its top speed, but top speed itself is a static equation: it's the point at which power lost equals power added. If you are on the front side of the power curve, you can increase maximum speed by decreasing mechanical advantage (i.e. lowering your torque, e.g. larger tire, greater ratio etc.). But since the OP is already on the back side of the power curve (no extra untapped power to add) the only way to increase top speed is, ultimately, power not torque. Either more power in (increase in displacement, efficiency, or both), or less power drained (like disconnecting the trailer ).
No need to make qualifications, you are quite right. But then again, so is Maksor and Fuzzy...

This illustrates why English is so darn hard!

Maksor is (I believe) referring to torque and HP at the engine; Fuzzy is talking about the torque amplification effect of a system of mechanical advantage (the drivetrain). Both points are valid.

And as you correctly point out, in the end you reach the point where power in equals work out and you're done. So, the only answer (one that has been used by every mechanical engineer since day one*) is to expand the range of mechanical advantage (add more "speeds" to a gearbox). Since you have no more sheave or clutch diameter to work with (already close to the case) and you're not likely to cut new gears for the diff...

For the OP's problem, the practical solution (assuming he intends to keep the same vehicle/engine combination) might very well be an even thicker fuzzy washer. He might very well be "over-geared" for the load. The difficulty for me would be assessing at what point the belt has dropped so low that the outer side of the belt actually starts interfering with the washer, damaging the belt. There must be a limit...

Or, as you point out, a smaller diameter rear wheel. Easier to do, and probably cheaper in the long run. Of course, then you probably have reduced load capacity in the wrong place...

Ain't engineering fun?

Cheers!

John

*From my Physics class back in the day: "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 3730
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:22 am quote
if he wants to haul that trail then the only thing will be a 492cc engine

no Dr Pulley or Washer can help him


And for clarifaction i was talking bout the washer that will give the Torque at another RPM range sooner so no good in this case

and i know you can up the torque but its costly i did on my FP3 that one had 71nm at 7700 RPM with 44 HP that did cost me about 6000 dollars

The orange one is allmost stock compared to the old one it only got Malossi camshaft valves and valvesprings

ow and i found this pic also

Bracketmeister
Bracketmeister Emeritus (retired)
Joined: 03 Jun 2009
Posts: 2519
Location: New Jersey
Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:39 am quote
I know this is dangerously close to being OT, but: if 100 kph is fast enough (how fast do you WANT to go with a big trailer behind you with no brakes of its own, anyway?) and the problem is simply not being able to make it up a hill...and presuming that hills are occasional problems and not a constant challenge...

...would nitrous oxide or other temporary, as-needed BTU enhancement be an option? I'm figuring that even if you didn't crack the cylinder head that you'd drive the ECU crazy, but I thought I'd ask.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:33 pm quote
Camper Trailer set up

Guilderton1.jpg
Camper set up

Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:34 pm quote
Camper set up

Campersetup1.jpg

Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:37 pm quote
Inside the camper

Guilderton3.jpg

Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:38 pm quote
From a different perspective

Guilderton2.jpg

Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Location: Carmichael, CA
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:40 pm quote
aussie41353 wrote:
Camper Trailer set up
Very cool! It looks like a great time...

Cheers!

John
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:48 pm quote
The MP3 attracts a lot of attention as there are so few about and people are not used to seeing two wheels up front but, you add the camper on behind, and people start taking photographs.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1290
Location: Utah
Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:55 pm quote
aussie41353 wrote:
Camper Trailer set up
Bravo!!
Base camp perfected!!🏠
Quick question does the ladder provide enough support for the overhang?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
. . 2008 Blue MP3 400. . di Peluria Orso .... 1993 Kawasaki Vulcan 500 ....... 2013 Honda NC700XD
Joined: 02 Jun 2008
Posts: 6082
Location: Milledgeville, GA
Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:03 pm quote
Maksor wrote:
if he wants to haul that trail then the only thing will be a 492cc engine

no Dr Pulley or Washer can help him
I respectfully disagree. If op is cruising at 60mph he is around 5500 -6000 rpm. Red line is 8200 rpm leaving an opportunity for more power in higher rpm. If in a lower gear with lighter sliders and or washer the bike will have more power at higher rpm in lower gear. When I tow a trailer with my truck I am often in a lower tattoo maintain speed. When I climb a hill I downshift to maintain speed. When I want to pass I downshift for more power to accelerate.

The stock MP3 gearing is not set up for extra weight of trailer. It also leans towards economy over sport. To make it worse the stock rollers do not downshift until after engine slows down, too late. Forcing the transmission into lower gear gives higher rpm and more power. If stock CVT would down shift like auto transmission in car tsis would not be a problem, but it changes on engine rpm.

A bigger engine would be nice to have, but the sliders and washer will help. Laugh all you want, but I believe you are wrong on this one.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:11 pm quote
Fuzzy, what you have just posted makes a lot of sense to me, but what do I know? In a car, towing something, you would leave it in a lower gear until the revs build up and once in a higher gear, if it becomes to slave, the revs would decrease which would be corrected to drop it down a gear again.

I am having the sliders fitted, so this should help a great deal?
Hooked
MP3 400
Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 254
Location: Carmichael, CA
Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:58 pm quote
Fuzzy wrote:
Maksor wrote:
if he wants to haul that trail then the only thing will be a 492cc engine

no Dr Pulley or Washer can help him
I respectfully disagree. If op is cruising at 60mph he is around 5500 -6000 rpm. Red line is 8200 rpm leaving an opportunity for more power in higher rpm. If in a lower gear with lighter sliders and or washer the bike will have more power at higher rpm in lower gear. When I tow a trailer with my truck I am often in a lower tattoo maintain speed. When I climb a hill I downshift to maintain speed. When I want to pass I downshift for more power to accelerate.

The stock MP3 gearing is not set up for extra weight of trailer. It also leans towards economy over sport. To make it worse the stock rollers do not downshift until after engine slows down, too late. Forcing the transmission into lower gear gives higher rpm and more power. If stock CVT would down shift like auto transmission in car tsis would not be a problem, but it changes on engine rpm.

A bigger engine would be nice to have, but the sliders and washer will help. Laugh all you want, but I believe you are wrong on this one.
Fuzzy, you are right as far as you go, the problem is that peak HP is at 7500 rpm (I believe), and a fuzzy washer is not going to make 1500 rpm difference.

Ideally, you would gear for peak hp @ peak load, and have an overdrive available for economy, and a low enough first gear to get you away from a stop at full load without undue wear on a clutch. But this is a scooter with a cvt that was designed for emissions, economy, and a much lighter load...

Will a fuzzy washer and sliders help? Undoubtedly, but not a bunch. Will a bigger displacement help? Also yes, but again, probably not as much as the OP would like. The advantage to the washer is that it is much cheaper and easier to try...

If I was determined to try this and wasn't willing to live within the design limitations, I would probably source a used 500 from a X9 or Beverly, swap 'em out, and then sell the 400. Total cost wouldn't be too much (although who am I kidding? I'd keep the 400 for a spare) and I have the skills and tools and spare bikes to ride in the meantime. I might also fuzzy washer while I'm at it, and maybe even drop to a 13 inch rear wheel. But that's me.

For the OP, try the washer as long as you're in there replacing sliders, and maybe try fairly light sliders. I think Fuzzy has mentioned 1.5mm washers have been used successfully; if so, start with that.

Whatever road you pick, it sure looks like fun to me!

Cheers!

John
Ossessionato
MP3 500, Ducati ST4s
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 2644
Location: Nomad currently in Placerville, CA
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:12 pm quote
I liked the camp trailer; but I do wonder if pulling it up a hill at speed isn't asking too much of an MP3 400. I would suggest trying the Akra, airbox mod, ECU remapping, Dr. Pulley sliders, and Fuzzy washer; along with eliminating any unnecessary weight. OF course if you carry a 60 spare tire with you everywhere you go like I do; losing that will help immensely.

If all that still isn't enough the cylinder and piston from the X9 (like Maksor suggested in the second post) would probably be your last possibility.
Member
Piaggio MP 500
Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 26
Location: Perth, Australia
Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:13 pm quote
I've been considering buying the new 500 cc MP3 and the reason I wish to stay with the MP3 set up is the additional road handling and braking capabilities with two pieces of rubber up front. Having towed caravans (trailers to you blokes in the US) behind cars for most of my life, I know the importance of brakes and how a load being towed can test anyone needing to pull up in a hurry. Besides that, the MP3 is far more fun to ride than the usual maxi scooter set up.

Even thought of getting the Yamaha 500 but, unlike Piaggio in Australia, Yamaha have made it very clear towing with one of their scoots is a very big no no. Piaggio Australia have advised, as long as I don't over load the camper, I should be fine.
Missouri Loves Company Rally   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Cool Ass scooter seat cover
Post Reply    Forum -> MP3 Discussion 12Next
[ Time: 0.2337s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0528s) ][ Debug on ]