FuocBelt, Dr Pulley, Fuzzy Washer, Clutch Spring change..
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Hooked
Fuoco 500ie - 2007, Benelli Adiva 150 - 2003
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 390
Location: North West London,UK
Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:28 am quote
I finally got round to doing the upgrade of all the things in the title last week...

Unfortunately I didn't get time to take any pictures, but the how-to wikis have already done a good job on that.

http://modernvespa.com/forum/wiki-bv500-belt-rollers

So I'll just make a couple of my own thoughts here after the job. Please bear in mind that this is the first time I've ever looked at the inside of a scooter transmission.

1) I used the buzetti tool for convenience, but there are other methods which I might have used such as the towel in the belt method which has been shown on youtube to lock the transmission while getting the big variator bolt off.

2) Take a note of the orientation of the roller cage sliders when removing the cage, just so you are confident of replacing them the right way.

3) I replaced the rollers with Dr Pulley Sliders. I was thinking about grinding away the radius fillet as in this post...

http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic80314

But thought that I'd give it a try just with the Dr Pulleys. The grundling is pretty much gone, but it may be there is a little more improvement if you modify you roller cage as above, I might have a go at that one winters' day.

4) I changed the clutch spring to a Malossi one. I looked for the required 55mm socket to dismantle the clutch, but since my local shop only charged me 15 to swap it over I did that instead.

5) I used one of my fuzzy washers, its has a slightly bigger inside and outside diameter to the original, but I checked and it still was well within the outer diameter radius where it would start to interfere with operation. more details here.
http://modernvespa.com/forum/topic68962

6) I used a 1" copper pipe on the ground too push the new belt into the clutch. Just roll the clutch backwards and forwards a couple of times until the belt is inside the diameter of the clutch and then you are good to go.

7) I bought a deep dished ring spanner to remove the rear clutch nut so that I could hold onto the centre of the shaft with another socket. I also used a piece of Velcro to hold the rear brake in the on position and the hand brake. This just about held the shaft still enough so I could break the nut free. I was wary of putting anything in the back wheel to lock the shaft after reading stories other people bending brake mountings by accident. When putting the nut on again, I tightened it up as far as I could with the ring spanner and then topped it out with the torque wrench using the shaft locking devices above. I was a bit wary of stressing the rear transmission which the manual warns against. Perhaps the only true ultra safe way of doing this is to use the ring spanner and a weight to apply the correct torque with a small socket/breaker bar on the shaft to hold it steady.

8 ) My torque wrench only goes up to 150 whereas you need 170 torque for the variator nut. To get round this, I started at 120 on the wrench and then torqued it up further up to 150, so I had confidence that the torque was getting close, and then just gave it a final tweak further with a breaker bar, which should be pretty near 170. Though that this was easier and quicker than mucking around with long poles and buckets of water..

9) I marked both bolts with paint marks on the nut and shaft so I can easily check back a couple of times and make sure they are not coming undone. I would have also used some Loctite if I'd had any...bottom line is that you do not want these coming undone while you are riding!

10) Given that I've done a number of different mods at once I can't tell what mods provided what improvement. Also I didn't have time to do use a gps app on my phone to do an acceleration test before starting which I'd originally intended to do...

Finally...whats it like to ride now...

Definitely smoother, without the low end grundling.
Not a massive increase in acceleration, but it is a little better.


Am I glad I did it...definitely, its a more refined ride now!

Once you've torn down a tranny once its quite easy to do again, and you'll save a lot of money changing belts compared to getting a shop to do it. It doesn't take that long either..
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:52 am quote
What weights did you use? Saying you noticed hardly any improvement in acceleration is not the normal response.
Curious why your washer was a different size - the Fuzzy Washers I had made are precision made to exactly the proper measurements.
Hooked
Fuoco 500ie - 2007, Benelli Adiva 150 - 2003
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 390
Location: North West London,UK
Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:31 am quote
I used 18g ones, didn't want to go too buzzy, perhaps a bit cautious..

My washers were bought from a fastner shop, so are not specifically for this purpose.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4052
Location: Netherlands Olst
Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:33 am quote
18 are to heavy i'm usin 4x 17 + 4x 14 is 15.5Gram
Hooked
Gilera Fuoco 500
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 237
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:40 pm quote
With that set-up Maksor, do you loose much top end?

I have Fuzzy plus 19gr Sliders and feel happy enough as acceleration seems ok and don't seem to have lost much top end.

But if I can improve one without losing other, I would be happy to try.

Thanks.

Tony.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:58 pm quote
IrishTC wrote:
With that set-up Maksor, do you loose much top end?

I have Fuzzy plus 19gr Sliders and feel happy enough as acceleration seems ok and don't seem to have lost much top end.

But if I can improve one without losing other, I would be happy to try.

Thanks.

Tony.
I had 16 grams sliders in and didn't loose and top end.

I like the 17 grams the best, to much engine revving with the 16's
Hooked
Fuoco 500ie - 2007, Benelli Adiva 150 - 2003
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 390
Location: North West London,UK
Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:17 pm quote
Would be lovely to be able to swap different weights out in mins and see which you prefer the most, but in reality these sliders aren't cheap and it takes hours to swap em so you've got to make a decision and stick to it for quite a long time...
Hooked
2009 MP3 250
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Posts: 166
Location: Ormond Beach, Florida
Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:48 pm quote
desq wrote:
Would be lovely to be able to swap different weights out in mins and see which you prefer the most, but in reality these sliders aren't cheap and it takes hours to swap em so you've got to make a decision and stick to it for quite a long time...
Very true. And it's not really a good idea to simply go by the advice of others since the proper choice of slider/roller weights depends on so many variables. Rider weight is one of those variables. Generally,(for better and smoother acceleration) the heavier the rider, the lighter the rollers/sliders.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:11 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
IrishTC wrote:
With that set-up Maksor, do you loose much top end?

I have Fuzzy plus 19gr Sliders and feel happy enough as acceleration seems ok and don't seem to have lost much top end.

But if I can improve one without losing other, I would be happy to try.

Thanks.

Tony.
I had 16 grams sliders in and didn't loose and top end.

I like the 17 grams the best, to much engine revving with the 16's
Exactly. I'd like to figger out which ninny started the whole "losing top end" nonsense. First off nobody is going to peg this scooter and keep it there for any length of time and in doing so will be breaking speed laws by a substantial margin just about anywhere on the planet. I have 17 gr weights in mine and I got a ticket for *cruising* at 88 mph. Seriously - worrying about losing top end is just plain silly. </rant>
I have tried everything from 16-19 and mixed them up to get in between. The 18-19 is dang near stock. Any improvement will be from the Fuzzy Washer.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:15 pm quote
[quote="scoot_florida"]
desq wrote:
Generally,(for better and smoother acceleration) the heavier the rider, the lighter the rollers/sliders.
Nonsense - lighter means it revs higher faster which gets you out of the best torque range for acceleration regardless of how big the rider is. Basically it screams like a banshee but you crawl along (relative to the noise it makes anyway). Embarrassing in that it makes it look like the bike is struggling to get the rider moving. For a heavy rider I daresay the least attractive option.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:05 pm quote
BubbaJon wrote:
Exactly. I'd like to figger out which ninny started the whole "losing top end" nonsense.
Me possibly? I lost over 15mph from my top speed with 17g sliders in. I gained about 5mph of that back by removing the Fuzzy washer, but max speed is still around 82-84 instead of 92-94mph
Quote:
First off nobody is going to peg this scooter and keep it there for any length of time and in doing so will be breaking speed laws by a substantial margin just about anywhere on the planet.
I've done lengthy WOT journeys quite often. It's a PITA when you're hitting the rev limiter but you know you should really have another 10mph. Some of us *do* ride as fast as we can on some journeys - we want to get to the destination ASAP.

So not 'nobody'.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:07 pm quote
jimc wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
Exactly. I'd like to figger out which ninny started the whole "losing top end" nonsense.
Me possibly? I lost over 15mph from my top speed with 17g sliders in. I gained about 5mph of that back by removing the Fuzzy washer, but max speed is still around 82-84 instead of 92-94mph
Quote:
First off nobody is going to peg this scooter and keep it there for any length of time and in doing so will be breaking speed laws by a substantial margin just about anywhere on the planet.
I've done lengthy WOT journeys quite often. It's a PITA when you're hitting the rev limiter but you know you should really have another 10mph. Some of us *do* ride as fast as we can on some journeys - we want to get to the destination ASAP.

So not 'nobody'.
17 gr weights and fuzzy washer clocked at 86 mph or so on a flat section of highway. Wasn't even maxed out.
So 15 mph off the top end limit of 92 would be less than 80? That would in fact be a RRPITA - but I don't believe anyone else I'm aware (Dirt?) has lost anything like that. I could see 5 mph or so but can personally attest that I've done 85 steady for over an hour at a time. Pretty sure one time PapaBear and I were doing 80+ - he has a 400 with the 16's and a FW.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:39 pm quote
80+ doesn't cut it with me - I want my 90+ back.

This is on UK roads - not unusual speeds in some places.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:55 pm quote
I was doing over 85 MPH the other day and still had throttle (17g sliders and FW).
Think it has a lot to do with temp. It gets into the low 70 degrees below and it turns into a different bike (More Power), in the high 90's it turns into a dog.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:19 pm quote
My speed frustrations were at way low temps than that.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:05 am quote
jimc wrote:
My speed frustrations were at way low temps than that.
That's just seriously weird Jim.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:01 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
jimc wrote:
My speed frustrations were at way low temps than that.
That's just seriously weird Jim.
At one time I thought it might be bits of Kevlar stuck in the clutch - no, I had that apart and it was all fine. So still a mystery.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4052
Location: Netherlands Olst
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:23 am quote
No but mine is tuned to extreme its doing about 117mph got 48bhp and 70nM torque
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:28 am quote
jimc wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
jimc wrote:
My speed frustrations were at way low temps than that.
That's just seriously weird Jim.
At one time I thought it might be bits of Kevlar stuck in the clutch - no, I had that apart and it was all fine. So still a mystery.
hmm sounds like a trip to see maksor.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:34 am quote
Could be. I'd still like to know what the rev limiter is meant to be set at - mine kicks in just a fraction over 8,000 rpm - which with a standard variator and 17g Dr P's equates on my bike to ~82mph.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:40 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
So 15 mph off the top end limit of 92 would be less than 80? That would in fact be a RRPITA - but I don't believe anyone else I'm aware (Dirt?) has lost anything like that. I could see 5 mph or so but can personally attest that I've done 85 steady for over an hour at a time. Pretty sure one time PapaBear and I were doing 80+ - he has a 400 with the 16's and a FW.
My current set up:

Malosi white spring in the clutch with a polini clutch and racing bell
Dr pulleys 17 gram
Fuzzy washer + an extra .5mm for a total fuzzy washer of 1.5, combined with the stock of 2mm for a grand total of 3.5mm.
OEM 849090 belt
Ponydrvr airbox mod
AK exhaust
Malosi red air filter
93 octane gas
NGK Cr7IEX plugs
Shell Rotella T-6 oil
Hi-flo 184 oil filter
Givi D-304 windshield
Hotgrips 475-875 grips
Titax short red adjustable levers
UFP V-3
Michelin Power pure 150/70-14 rear tire--- set at 32 psi
Michelin Power pure 12/70-12 front tires---- set at 30 psi
Givi E-55 top case
Airhawk model R seat cushion
HID 35w low beam headlights
Stebel 139 db airhorn
Waxed with Original bike spirits cleaner/wax

And I weigh 195 lbs

I can hit right at 101-103 mph indicated. Flat out straight and level.
Member
2009 Piaggio MP3 500
Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 15
Location: Sooner Nation
Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:44 am quote
Thanks for the update desq, where did you source your parts in the US? What belt did you use?
James
Hooked
Fuoco 500ie - 2007, Benelli Adiva 150 - 2003
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 390
Location: North West London,UK
Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:30 am quote
Hi

I live in London, England.

Maksor can supply the full details about the belt, I've deleted the conversation thread I had with him....

If anybody with a stock Fuoco is near north London and wants to do a comparison ride with my bike that would be interesting, get in touch..

Obviously proper insurance will be required...


Thx

Des
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4052
Location: Netherlands Olst
Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:25 pm quote
He got a OEM Belt iff i recall correct
Hooked
Fuoco 500ie - 2007, Benelli Adiva 150 - 2003
Joined: 08 Jan 2013
Posts: 390
Location: North West London,UK
Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:05 pm quote
Yes it was OEM...

Thanks Maksor, good service!
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:54 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
I can hit right at 101-103 mph indicated. Flat out straight and level.
What are the revs at that point - and if you hit the limiter, at what revs is that? I'm particularly interested in the limiter revs that others experience.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:04 pm quote
jimc wrote:
old as dirt wrote:
I can hit right at 101-103 mph indicated. Flat out straight and level.
What are the revs at that point - and if you hit the limiter, at what revs is that? I'm particularly interested in the limiter revs that others experience.
can't say I have ever hit the rev limiter on mine, now on another I work on time to time I have hit the rev limiter on his at 98-99 mph indicated with a fuzzy washer and 17 gram dr pulleys.

As far as what rpm I don't pay attention to it. guess I will have to go for a test run for you this coming week. After I get the scoot back from the fab shop that is making up the new style floorboards for highway pegs.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:38 pm quote
I'd be very grateful.
Ossessionato
Red MP3 500 RUBY DRAGON
Joined: 29 Nov 2008
Posts: 2626
Location: Northern CA
Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:44 am quote
My highest speed was 94 with the JCosta and without Fuzzy. Lost a little top end with the Fuzzy added to the JCosta. My current set-up is 18g Dr P's and the Fuzzy with new top end of 95 on flat, negligible wind, measured with GPS of course!
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4052
Location: Netherlands Olst
Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:03 pm quote
Jim i've disabled the ref limiter well not completly but it starts at 9000 i do 160km/h at 7900 RPM

my setup

Malossie Valves
Malossi cam
Rapidbike III
NGK CR9EKB

Dr Pulley 17 4x and 14 4x
Hitclutch

150/70/14 Power pure at the rear

Red sponge Beverly airfilter
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21405
Location: Harriman, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:46 am quote
Jim I just did a test ride on my way to barber motorsports. Laded with camping gear, changed rear tire to an old low mileage gold standard 140. I can hit 95 indicated at 7900 rpm. Had a bit left. Will try and push it on the next leg when traffic clears.
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 37598
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:01 am quote
Thanks - I look forward to you finding the rev limiter revs.
Hooked
2010 gts 300 super. 09 MP3 500 lite
Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 441
Location: tampa
Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:07 am quote
Maksor wrote:
Jim i've disabled the ref limiter well not completly but it starts at 9000 i do 160km/h at 7900 RPM

my setup

Malossie Valves
Malossi cam
Rapidbike III
NGK CR9EKB

Dr Pulley 17 4x and 14 4x
Hitclutch

150/70/14 Power pure at the rear

Red sponge Beverly airfilter
what does cam do for powerband?
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