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So just yesterday stopped by Vespa Motorsport to check on progress of my GT200 rebuild. I was informed they had just gotten in a Malossi shipment. Of course I was waiting on said shipment as my new performance crankshaft for my GT was on it. They also received Malossi's newest product for the GTS 300 - the Force master 2 which is the lambda emulator on steroids. It raises the rev limiter by 1000 rpm, works with the ECU to increase the AFR, etc.

We installed it yesterday on my fully kitted "Project Super Bee" GTS 300 Super. I just wanted to get this posted as a placeholder for now. I will update the thread later today with pictures and information. Stay tuned end of February/March as I will be riding out to the High Rollers Weekend rally in Las Vegas where we will be dyno testing and tuning it. Lots of information to come... I can say I had an indicated 100 MPH on the speedo last night with no rev limiter interference. I will have a GPS confirmed top speed posted later.
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Doing some other mods that have been long awaited, since I now have control of the AFR to a degree I'm doing the airbox mod and such. I took it for a run today and got a GPS confirmed 89MPH on a straight stretch of road. In a full tuck on a slight decline I'm willing to bet a GPS confirmed 95 is doable. I'll be doing a GoPro video of the record run, post pictures of the controller, and such. It got dark before I could get a lot of it worked out today.
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Holy shit, that's cool. 8)
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Force master 2. I'm down for learning more about that.
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I'm very interested. At the moment I am pretty happy with the Lambda Emulator, and I got nothing out of the Power Commander.

I would be interested to know how it ovrrides the rev limiter. But anyway, I am not looking for more speed, just power and smooth running.

Does it come with good instructions for adjusting/tuning it? The Power Commander came with none, and the instructions for the PM Tuning module weren't much help.

Eagerly waiting fior further reports!

Mike
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Sounds Awsome !.. Got the lambada.. And everything else on mine.. Like mike.. Keen to hear more on this.....
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Three weeks and no further news on the Force Maste 2!! We are still waiting for more.

I looked up the installation instructions, and discovered that it is a complete replacement for the ECU, not an override as other black boxes are. Having four mappings and +-30% overrides, it is a much better deal than having the ECU reprogrammed, because one can still fiddle the settings, and one can back it out completely without any further expense. And the results should be as good as a re-program at less expense and downtime.

Please let me know if the above interpretation is corrrect.

Mike
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Mike Holland wrote:
Three weeks and no further news on the Force Maste 2!! We are still waiting for more.

I looked up the installation instructions, and discovered that it is a complete replacement for the ECU, not an override as other black boxes are. Having four mappings and +-30% overrides, it is a much better deal than having the ECU reprogrammed, because one can still fiddle the settings, and one can back it out completely without any further expense. And the results should be as good as a re-program at less expense and downtime.

Please let me know if the above interpretation is corrrect.

Mike
Hey Mike. I'm waiting for a full report until the end of the month. I'm going to a rally in Las Vegas, and my mechanic's brother works at a tuning shop there so we will be dyno tuning the setup.

I plan on swapping out a stock airbox with my modded airbox and rechecking the results to see if your airbox mod has a discernable impact on the dyno. It isn't really a replacement for the ECU as it is a piggyback that feeds the proper information to the ECU via the diagnostic connector based on the parameters you set to either enrich or lean out the mixture. It has presets based on certain hardware i.e malossi head, cylinder, Rx exhaust. Then yes as you mentioned the overrides for fine tuning custom parameters.

As soon as we get it on the dyno and do a baseline we can set a proper custom tune based on the A/F ratio we see. I haven't forgotten about this, and it will be done as soon as we get to Vegas. I still need to get solid dyno numbers on the impact of the Dr Pulley clutch such as acceleration impact and what not. Unfortunately my previous dyno tuning shop is no longer available so it put a delay on my getting this stuff done.
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Ok. Patience, Grasshopper!
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Mike Holland wrote:
Ok. Patience, Grasshopper!
I can tell you on my particular setup - 282 cc cylinder, V4 head, Akrapovic pipe I am set of Curve 3 which is the highest preset on the Force Master 2 Presets. There are a total of four adjustment screws. The first three are each for different engine speed points, and the last is the Curve setting for the Malossi presets. As we set it for now here is my settings:

Low: 0
Mid: -1
High: +3

My engine runs fairly rich in the low and mid RPM range, and leans out by quite a bit in the high range. This is observed especially on my spark plug, I need to run a 9 heat range plug to accommodate this. Previously I was scorching the electrodes right off the plug. It was precisely this reason we set the high range a bit richer.

I can already predict my particular GTS will do very well on top speed runs, as the 10K rev limiter and 22/45 gears help quite a bit there. I also have the 13 inch Yourban wheels so that will affect speeds a little bit though a negligible amount. Acceleration is hampered by that upgear though.

I'm very interested to see the AF ratio we see on the initial test and how well we can tune it with the Force Master.
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I think my question wil be in the right spot here:
Wich wire on the lamda is the one with the voltage signal towards the ECU.

If I understand the working on the lamda sensor correctly the tipping voltage is 0,45volt
A power voltage is a lean mixture, above 0,45volt is rich.

So if I lower that voltage output from the lamda the ECU will try andere inject more fuel to regain a ideale mixture.
What I figured out so far is our lamda sensor is a 4 wire model.
2 wires for pre-heating and 2 for signaal, + and -
If I put a 10kOhm resistor in line with the signal negative and a 100kOhm to grond after that it will give a 0.91 x the normale voltage.

Am I doing my math/sience correctly???
So wich wire is the signal negative??
Or am I on the wrong path here??
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External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

This may help you a bit. This is the output voltage for the lambda sensor utilized in the GTS. I don't have the info on which wire is which, but yes you are correct it is a four wire sensor.
If I have the available time I could always grab my multimeter and start probing away though I don't see that coming any time soon.
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Bommes, this link to the Aprilia forum might help.

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?249450-Potential-custom-tuning-solution/page25&highlight=Fat+Duc

Micah and company at AF1 Racing market what they call the Fat Duc, a black box which does what you require. I would simply connect a 20k resistor and a 2k potentiometer between the grey and black wires, and tap off the voltage between the grey wire and the junction of the resistor and potentiometer. Then one can adjust the potentiometer to suit.

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Techenigma:
Thanks for the offer but no need to grab the multimeter think it's the pin setting.
1 - 2 signal 3 -4 preheater

Mike Holland (whats in a name)
Thanks for that link that's a big help.
The values I had for the resistors came from a dutch elektronics forum and are installed on my bike for some time now.
but I noticed no difference, not in fuel consumption neither in performance.
So I was wondering if I had the right wires and valueas for the resistors.

Your link (with the image) will come in handy..
wiring's
wiring's
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I personally don't like those components. That variable resistor will give an attenuation range from 20/32 to 20/37. Omit the 12k resistor and you have a range of 20/20 to 20/25, so you can adjust it from 80% right up to full signal.

Mike
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What would you suggest Mike??
Different components is no problem, got this small shop nearby with all sorts of this stuf.

A fixed setting would not be a problem if only I knew what resistors to use.
Changes on my 250:
Dr pulley sliders
Leovinci exhaust
Mike Holland airbox mod
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Bommes wrote:
Techenigma:
Thanks for the offer but no need to grab the multimeter think it's the pin setting.
1 - 2 signal 3 -4 preheater

Mike Holland (whats in a name)
Thanks for that link that's a big help.
The values I had for the resistors came from a dutch elektronics forum and are installed on my bike for some time now.
but I noticed no difference, not in fuel consumption neither in performance.
So I was wondering if I had the right wires and valueas for the resistors.

Your link (with the image) will come in handy..
If turning the potentiometer makes no difference, make sure you have wired it correctly. The diagram shows the pins in the order that is easy to draft the schematic, but not the order of the pins on the pot. Pin 1 is the start of the resistor track, pin 2 is the wiper, pin 3 is the end of the resistor track. If you have wired up pins 1 and 3, turning the knob will do sodd-all, as the wiper is not connected.
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I ment the resistors I put in my own version of lamda emulator. Not the one Mike suplyed the link for, that ons I still have to shop for and make.
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I know nothing about the internal resistances of the ECU and the Lambda probe, so can't guess what resistances would be suitable. So if I were trying it, I would use a 5k pot and a 20k resistor as per the diagram, and just omit the 12k resistor.

Find some way of positioning the components so that you can fiddle with the pot setting easily without having to dismount and remove panels. Once you have worked out an optimum setting, then you can hide it in the engine bay.

I understand that the Lambda probe is ignored by the ECU at full throttle and high speeds, so this circuit is only going to make a difference at take-off and low speed.

Mike
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The biggest thing i am wondering is how much power that 282 and 4V give. Im in the process of getting the kit, without the upgear kit. I have been telling people that ask how much power i currently have is 25-27hp with k&n air and exhaust. Im hoping that you put out more, somewhere around 30hp+. Everytime i see you guys talking about this shit i get all excited. Please post video. I cant wait to hear more.
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McGavin, I have a 250 with the Malossi kit, ie a 268cc engine, so I can't comment on the 282cc version. But for me the only mod that really increases power is the V4 cylinder and head. All the other mods are just the icing on top.

Maybe the Force Master will be another big step. I have tried the Power Commander with no results, and the Malossi Lambda Emulator with some good results, but still feel there is a way to go with reprogramming the ECU.

One can get the ECU remapped, at some expense, and those who have had it done report great results. The Force Master has the advantage of being easily adjusted or backed out after it is fitted, and, I hope, will give the same results as a remap of the ECU.

The Malossi upgear kit will definitely give you a higher top speed with the V4 kit providing the power to drive it, but you will lose a bit of the V4 power, so you must choose between acceleration and top speed. How often do you have the opportunity to hit 90 mph plus?

Mike
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scooter mcgavin wrote:
The biggest thing i am wondering is how much power that 282 and 4V give. .
According to Malossi, the kit produces almost 4 more horsepower (CV or cavalli vapore in Italian) than stock in the 300, and the V4 head alone is responsible for about 3/4 of that increase. Here is a link to their information.

http://www.malossi.com/fla/bannerv4head/9914231_en.pdf
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scooter mcgavin wrote:
The biggest thing i am wondering is how much power that 282 and 4V give. Im in the process of getting the kit, without the upgear kit. I have been telling people that ask how much power i currently have is 25-27hp with k&n air and exhaust. Im hoping that you put out more, somewhere around 30hp+. Everytime i see you guys talking about this shit i get all excited. Please post video. I cant wait to hear more.
I will have these details from the dyno when I return. I'll have to dig up my dyno sheets from the GT 200 run, we were doing comparisons from my kitted GT 200 to a stock GTS 300 and in the results as I recall I was making nearly comparable HP, and Torque numbers. In the saddle experience between my GTS in stock form and as it is now is night and day.

30 HP in my opinion is not attainable on a GTS 300. The power/ratio is already fairly substantial and regardless of resulting power how fast do you honestly want to go on 12 inch wheels? I'm on 13's with wide tires and though it is very stable on the way to 90 MPH once you get there it can be unsettling for some.
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Techenigma, i am not putting an upgear kit. For me, its not about the top speed(85mph next to a harley) more, how fast one can get to that top speed. I just like feeling the pull through the turns. Also, being that i am a big guy(300lbs and declining), i like jumping on the freeway and having enough pull to get around the some of the worlds slowest drivers. I also live near santa cruz mts and the beach is over hill, so the extra power is for me and the lady friend(s). Lastly, TO PULL A WHEELIE FOR MY REDNECK, TRUCK DRIVING, HARLEY IN THE NICE WEATHER ONLY COWORKERS!!



ITS A REAL BIKE DAMNIT, JUST NOW REAL FAST!!
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LMAO
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OK, so it's the end of February. Hope your plans all went to schedule, Techenigma, and we will be hearing something soon.

I am just itching to order a Force Commander. but forcing myself top wait for your report.

Mike
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Im dying to see the results. I just put my scoot in the San Jose BMW shop to put the 282cc and 4V kits on.
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Just got my scooter back from sj bmw. 282cc installed, 4v installed, malossi emulator insalled, pm 56 installed and k&n air filter installed. More power? Hell yes! Better acceleration? Hell yes. 0-60mph? Way better. And i havent even opened her up on the freeway yet. Still babying her, counting down the miles. 30hp? I dont think so.

Would i do it again? Hell to the YES!
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Hah! You ain't seen nothin' yet! Just wait until you open her up as you lay her over in a bend! Just wait 'till you open the throttle to overtake and find you've already done it!

That power is totally addictive.

Mike
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So unfortunately it was poor weather conditions to be able to get an opportune dyno tune in Vegas. It was raining, and super humid (obviously) so I didnt want the results skewed by those conditions.

I have since opened up the airbox mod a bit more, put in a slightly colder iridium plug (CR9EIX) and after a good warm up ride took it for another WOT run. I did successfully hit the new, higher rev limiter and bounced off of it. I have another dyno tech down in SD we will put it through to do the tuning and such.

I have my rebuilt GT200 coming home soon so I need to focus on pooling up that cash, and next month I will be out of town on a business trip so I have to put this on the back burner temporarily.

Needless to say Mike, I think the Force Master is a great investment and worth every penny. I think you should get it, you certainly won't regret it.
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Nooooooooooooooo...............!
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OK, I have just ordered one from SIP in Germany.

Mike
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My Force Master 2 arrived this afternoon, and I have started fitting it. Techenigma, I have a couple of questions/problems.

The instructions recommend fitting the unit inside the pet carrier, with the cables passing through a hole in the bottom. This means that when the pet carrier is put in place, a whole lot of slack cables are lying on top of the engine. This doesn't appeal to me aesthetically. Where did you fit yours?

I have located the HT coil next to the battery, and removed the battery to access it. But I can't see the plug end of the coil, and so far, going by feel, I have managed to pull out the spark plug lead by mistake, and need to make sure it goes back properly. How does one get at the plugs? Do you have to remove the coil, and if so, how?

So far I have left my Malossi Lambda Emulator installed. What is your opinion? Will it just confuse the Force Master mapping and muck up its operation?

Thanks for any help.

Mike
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Mine is located in the engine compartment, I used velcro to stick it towards the front, on the right side directly ahead of where the diagnostic connector is. I just zip tied the wiring alongside some others and used some cable mounts to keep it looking clean.

You can't use the Force master 2 in conjunction with the lambda emulator, they both hook up to the diagnostic connector and the Force Master does a vastly better job of exactly what the lambda emulator does.

The easiest way to get to the connection point on the coil is to remove the floorboard. It is by far easier to do it that way than doing it by feel. I tried doing it without removing the floorboard as well, but ultimately I had to remove it. You're likely coming to that conclusion about now considering our time zone difference.

If you need pictures or anything I can take some if need be.
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Thanks. I will go for the same positioning. I am out of cable ties, and will use string for the meanwhile.

I pulled up the floorboard in that corner, and got at the two nuts holding the coil. So that is all done. And I have removed the Lambda Emulator.

Been through the TPS setup, and it then failed the verification - no lights at all. So I will repeat that. It is not easy to see which way the arrows are pointing, especially as the positions don't line up with the face properly.

Back to work. Will report again when I have it all set p and have been for a ride.

Mike
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GTS300 Super 2015 Blue, GTS300 Super 2023 Beige
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Still stymied. Only additional observation is that if I turn the ignition on with the throttle wide open, all three lights come on together briefly. I have checked all the connections and tried the TPS calibration again twice! Haven't tried starting the scooter.

I have sent help requests to Malossi and to SIP. SIP's automatic reply said I would not get an answer for 2-3 working days. Hope Malossi does better. Pity they don't include error codes in the manual.

Mike

Edit: Just tried starting the scooter, but no joy. If I open the throttle a little while operating the starter, the green light comes on.

Edit2: Correction. I had left the middle control in the test position instead of zero position. Scooter starts fine and sounds good, but I am a bit reluctant to ride it until I know what is wrong with the TPS verification.
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2007 Vespa GT200 - 2010 Vespa GTS 300 Super - 2013 Piaggio BV 350
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@techenigma avatar
2007 Vespa GT200 - 2010 Vespa GTS 300 Super - 2013 Piaggio BV 350
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UTC quote
Mike Holland wrote:
Still stymied. Only additional observation is that if I turn the ignition on with the throttle wide open, all three lights come on together briefly. I have checked all the connections and tried the TPS calibration again twice! Haven't tried starting the scooter.

I have sent help requests to Malossi and to SIP. SIP's automatic reply said I would not get an answer for 2-3 working days. Hope Malossi does better. Pity they don't include error codes in the manual.

Mike

Edit: Just tried starting the scooter, but no joy. If I open the throttle a little while operating the starter, the green light comes on.

Edit2: Correction. I had left the middle control in the test position instead of zero position. Scooter starts fine and sounds good, but I am a bit reluctant to ride it until I know what is wrong with the TPS verification.
There are marginally better instructions on their site: http://storage.malossistore.com/files/montaggio/7314754.pdf

Seems as if you either didnt zero them out, or missed one of the throttle steps. Mine was a bit different since it is a 300.
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GTS300 Super 2015 Blue, GTS300 Super 2023 Beige
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I printed off the corresponding instructions for the GTS250 well before I ordered the box. The GTS300 instructions do not mention setting the TPS for closed hrottle, using the LOW trimmer.

Anyway, decided I would ride my scoot around the block today (Sunday), but found the battery was nearly flat. Maybe that is the cause of my problem. So today the battery sits on the trickle charger and I will test it all again tomorrow.

Mike
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2007 Vespa GT200 - 2010 Vespa GTS 300 Super - 2013 Piaggio BV 350
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@techenigma avatar
2007 Vespa GT200 - 2010 Vespa GTS 300 Super - 2013 Piaggio BV 350
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Location: Ventura County, CA
UTC quote
Mike Holland wrote:
I printed off the corresponding instructions for the GTS250 well before I ordered the box. The GTS300 instructions do not mention setting the TPS for closed hrottle, using the LOW trimmer.

Anyway, decided I would ride my scoot around the block today (Sunday), but found the battery was nearly flat. Maybe that is the cause of my problem. So today the battery sits on the trickle charger and I will test it all again tomorrow.

Mike
Ahhh yes. The battery needs to have a good charge or yes you will have the error you were getting.
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@mike_holland avatar
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Location: Sydney, Australia
UTC quote
Didn't work. Had the battery on trickle for 24 hours. It now reads 13.7 volts. Redid the TPS setup, but the TPS verification still fails. Took the scooter for a run around the block, and it seems fine, but due to rain I could not do a proper test to see what difference the box has made.

Forecast is showers all the coming week, but there might be somwe sunny patches inbetween for a testr. Still waiting for res[ponses from SIP and Malossi.

Mike
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