P-Series Clutch Seals
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Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1791

Tue May 27, 2014 12:46 pm quote
There are apparently at least 4 different clutch oil seals for the P-series depending on manufacturer and construction materials, but they all fall into one of two categories, the ones with metal edges and the ones with rubberized edges.

According to SIP, later model PXs had the metal edge seals. Also according to SIP, the rubber edged ones are 62mm in diameter, while the metal edge ones are 62.1 mm in diameter.

To me, this explains a lot. When a shop replaced the seal on my 2005 PX, they put in a rubber edged one that popped out in a matter of weeks. So did 2 more before I insisted on a switch to a metal one, which failed for other reasons but didn't pop out. In fact, for a variety of reasons 2 more metal ones since haven't popped out either. The shop could not remember which factory seal they originally pulled out, but I'd lay odds it was one of the metal ones.

This also explains why some say to not use a metal one because it'll stretch the seat and a rubber one will never stay in again. So far, so good, the 2 types are 2 slightly different sizes and that's important... don't jam a big one in where a small one will suffice. But what I don't understand is what SIP is saying in the following paragraph outlined in bold..
Quote:
The oil seals made of metal, from later PX models, can be retro-fitted to the GTR/TS/Sprint/V/Rally models motors, replacing the original rubber item. The deciding factor is whether the seat of the oil seal has a groove cut into it or not. The PX 200 crankcases produced by MALOSSI do not feature this groove, meaning they can also benefit from the use of this seal type. If this groove is present within the motor the rubber version must be used. Attention to this difference can be crucial for an oil-tight motor!
What groove are they talking about, not the groove for the giant circlip? That's behind the seat of the seal. I don't know because I've never seen the inside of an older PX case.

metal seal.jpg

rubber seal.jpg

Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1791

Fri May 30, 2014 1:24 pm quote
No takers?
Addicted
Vespa Rally 210
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Posts: 927
Location: uk
Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:34 am quote
Some engines have a perimeter groove on the vertical face of the casing that the seal seats in.
SIP say:
Groove = blue rubber seal
No groove = metal seal

My mate had an seal failure on his autolube engine.
I had a look yesterday and it has the groove.
He had a metal seal fitted so I gave him a blue rubber one to try.
Seems to contradict SIP though - they say the groove was a detail found on older engines?

Edit: UK here so autolube only appeared in the mid 80's meaning p-range autolube engines are quite late in the whole Vespa series. P-ranges were sold here from 1977 to 1986 (I think) with no autolube.
Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1791

Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:52 am quote
That's why I posted this question. I'm trying to clarify one more bit of confusing minutiae about these bikes that can make problems.

My '05 PX does not have any groove other than the one for the circlip and I wondered if there was another one in earlier cases that I wasn't aware of. I do know that only metal edged seals will stay in mine. I also use Loctite 641 bearing/seal retaining compound to help make sure it stays in.

I think you may have cleared this up.

SIP says...
Older with groove => 62 mm rubber edged seal
Newer without groove => 62.1 metal edged seal
They also imply that metal edged can be used as a fix on older ones if the rubber one won't stay in, but I suspect as others have mentioned that after this there may be no going back due to it being slightly larger.

If your friend's rubber seal won't stay in, perhaps the metal one with retaining compound will help?

I'll try to post a pic of my '05 later today.
If someone could do the same for the older style bike, I think we'd have this issue wrapped up.
Addicted
Vespa Rally 210
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Posts: 927
Location: uk
Sun Jun 01, 2014 7:59 am quote
My Rally 200 also failed.
Gearbox oil stinkin of petrol.
Opened it up to find I'd fitted a metal seal and the casing has a groove.
I've replaced it with the rubber seal & loctite.
Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1791

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:10 am quote
A Rally? Is your seal on the outside of the bearing then, unlike mine, which is a huge PITA?
Addicted
Vespa Rally 210
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Posts: 927
Location: uk
Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:26 am quote
No - on the inside same as a P range.
What you got that's different?
Don't have the engine number handy for dating it but its a femsa engine.
Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Love-Hate Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: 01 Sep 2007
Posts: 1791

Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:37 am quote
Mine has the seal on the inside between the bearing and crank. Can't even inspect it without pulling the crank and straining the bearing. For some reason I thought older P's had it on the outside of the bearing.

Regardless, it sounds like the groove is the key. It'll be interesting to see if your friend's seal stays put with the correct one.

Piaggio didn't make this easy.
Addicted
Vespa Rally 210
Joined: 04 Sep 2011
Posts: 927
Location: uk
Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:07 am quote
FYI - my mate did have the metal one fitted & it came out whilst driving.
His engine has the groove & he's now gonna fit a blue rubber seal with loctite.
Enthusiast
Vespa Douglas Sportique (VBB), PX200E, 50N (smallframe), Lambretta LI 150 (SII)
Joined: 20 Sep 2016
Posts: 65
Location: Gillingham, UK
Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:25 am quote
Hey guys,
I have the same problem, I rebuilt my P200 from 2002 engine recently to find that the brand new clutch side seal was leaking, so I dropped the engine out again and replaced it with the metal oil seal and to my dismay last week found petrol in the oil sump. I did not use loctite on this seal and would ask what the best advice be. Should I use the blue rubber seal and loctite this? If so can someone tell me how I should loctite this and where, in fact any advice on this would be really appreciated, thanks in advance
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Thu Oct 18, 2018 10:51 pm quote
Was discussed very recently
PX Clutch Side Oil Seal...

This is a definate weak point. Two things that really help are.
1. If you have a ridge use a ridged seal.
2. Never fit any kind of seal without Loctite603 or 638

Even if a seal seat becomes really loose it can still be saved. There are ways.
Enthusiast
p200e, T5 classic w/px motor
Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 69
Location: Glasgow Scotland
Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:16 pm quote
is the groove for lubrication for the bearing?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1050
Location: UK (South East)
Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:15 am quote
Reviving to add my own experience
I am using second hand PX200E cases for a power build, with an engine number that corresponds with 1986. I pulled out a brown Corteco metal seal, so blindly purchased the same as a replacement for the rebuild. After failing to get the seal installed and distorting it in the process, I noticed that I have the groove where the seal sits.

I've now ordered the rubber seal with the 'tongue' as FMP puts it. This little tongue locates into the groove by all accounts, providing a nice secure fit. However, some scooter shops state that the metal seal/no groove engines started ~1984, yet others state 1992. SIP also states that the seals are interchangeable as an 'upgrade' to older engines, and then contradicts in the next paragraph. All a bit confusing.

The only issue I have with the rubber seal is that it only comes in blue, and I'm worried that for a high revving engine, brown viton would be better.
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