300cc PX motor... start saving
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:40 pm quote
Here's the guts... no 5th gear but why would you need it?
BSG Corse wrote:
we must test some different configurations, then set the standard one. displacement is over 250cc.


PX 306cc.jpg



Last edited by Ginch on Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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I have a few scooters....
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:50 pm quote
I love the cylinder head. It reminds me of the glow plug from the Cox airplane engines from back in the day.
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Rally180
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:57 pm quote
How is that motor not going to melt using the stock fan and cooling set up?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:09 pm quote
crock wrote:
How is that motor not going to melt using the stock fan and cooling set up?
Maybe that head fin design is much better at shedding heat than the typical vertical setout? But it's a good point... if it makes say 100% more power than a 200 then presumably it makes that much more heat as well?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:35 pm quote
w-o-w
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:19 pm quote
cmstuber wrote:
Claude, there are a few folks that broke 100mph on a vintage.

In that article the dude mentions he thinks he needs 35hp at 9500rpm with his gearing to pull 100mph. A quick youtube search pulls up a dyno of someone getting 47hp at 12500rpms with a 150cc bsg smallie motor. I would imagine if properly tuned, the possibilities of a 300cc motor such as this in the right hands could pull 100mph with not too much thought.
I know and that's cool but I'm was thinking about he stability of the bike. There's a reason why those guys add weights to the front. Now, Imagine trying to go 100 mpg down a freeway with the wind plowing into the bodywork. I can't wait to see a YouTube video of someone blasting down a freeway. It'll be as hairy as hell.
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:28 pm quote
I think Tony O'Brian went over 100 on his small frame.

image.jpg

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Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:29 pm quote
Yep 116...and it's only around 150cc.

image.jpg

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Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:34 pm quote
Totally agree with you about freeway riding and wind. Where I live, 30mph wind is normal, straight into that at 45mph is scary. Can't imagine what going 100mph into a headwind like that would be like.

I don't like riding on the freeway at all, too many semi trucks which just make you wobble and spit gravel in your teeth. Hell, I don't like driving a cage on the freeway. People texting and talking on their phones going 80mph is just plain dangerous. 100mph through the countryside on some smaller roads and maybe blasting through town does seem fun.

But there is a point at which we must entertain the conversation about why we ride vintage scooters and not modern bikes. And while I'm all about going faster on a P, at some point is there a line crossed where we lose what it means to ride an older, slower form of transport? For example: BSG eventually makes a touring 300cc motor you can drop in a frame for $2000, would you drop the cash on it or on a good shape rally 200 for the same price and tour with it? Personally I'd go with the stock rally. I think the reason is that this 300cc motor is a novelty, a very cool novelty that I covet, but a novelty nonetheless. And while the novelty is totally rad, for me it can't provide the same feelings of pride or whatever it is that riding a vintage stock bike provides.
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:26 pm quote
Here's a guy on a Super GTS 300 doing a top speed run of 80 MPH.

That guy is working pretty hard. That two stroke build won't be working that hard.

@Cmstuber
I get pretty spooked around semi trucks. The wind blast is too much so I try to stick to the back roads. They're more fun, there's always a few twists. I can't really comment on having a real vintage scoot.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:10 pm quote
80...

Last edited by joshzingzing on Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:41 pm quote
joshzingzing wrote:
80! pretty poor effort really
The 300 gts has just 22 horsepower and a top speed of 80-ish. So that rather sad display is that bikes top speed.

Last edited by Claude on Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:29 am quote
Apparently this motor runs a 64mm crank. Not sure what that means for bore size.
BSG Corse wrote:
this is first engine built for tests. everything seems to work very well, so we expect to be ready for sale in some months... after summer holidays.
thank you all for interest
Which I think means October-ish.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:15 am quote
massive fro
if hes italian thatll mean april
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78 P200 05 PX150
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Location: Fort Collins, CO
Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:19 pm quote
Awesome engine. Too bad it's 4 speed, air cooled and uses a drum brake. I'm surprised he didn't machine some billet points and run a 6-volt ignition while he was at it. I would be embarrassing to spend that kinda money only to be wasted by a 250 Ninja.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:24 pm quote
Yeah but the torque on this thing will be massive so that extra gears may not be needed... motors with a narrow power band can really use the 5th and 6th gears. This motor will outperform the chassis by a large margin.
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Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:18 pm quote
And drum brakes are more than adequate for the rear. In fact I bet you could do with just one shoe (the leading one). Combined with 300cc of engine braking...
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Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:43 pm quote
Even Harley abandoned drum brakes in 72... My point is, if you are going through all that trouble why not take the opportunity to modernize it.
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Mon Jun 16, 2014 8:58 pm quote
chuckactor wrote:
Even Harley abandoned drum brakes in 72... My point is, if you are going through all that trouble why not take the opportunity to modernize it.
Money is better spent modernizing the most effective brake.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:36 am quote
SFDiego wrote:
chuckactor wrote:
Even Harley abandoned drum brakes in 72... My point is, if you are going through all that trouble why not take the opportunity to modernize it.
Money is better spent modernizing the most effective brake.
I think so too. It's pretty easy to lock up the rear on a scooter already.

But Chuck does have a point. It would be kinda nice to see some other upgrades as well.... however for most of us here it'll probably be just a pipe dream anyway.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
px200 cutdown,px180,px150. Puch SR. Puch scooterette
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Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:46 am quote
Ginch wrote:
[just a pipe dream .
ill sleep like a rat up a drainpipe tonight




last night I dreamed I was doing 90mph in a beetle, true story
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1965 Vespa SS180, 1963 Lambretta LI150
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Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:22 am quote
That really is beautiful. Looks like someone may have CNC'd a completely new engine out of aluminum? It doesn't look like they altered an original case.

i'm gobsmacked.
Molto Verboso
Wrecked '61 VNB
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Sat Jun 21, 2014 2:57 am quote
Uhhhhmmmm... Would it be inappropriate to use the word "erection"? god I hope so...
Lurker
1980 p200e
Joined: 04 Oct 2014
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Location: wisconsin
Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:00 pm quote
bsg price for px 300 cc motor
hi everyone
just got a price from bsg for the complete 300cc px engine 6.5 k ( euros )
about $8500 u.s. dollars
lot of money for some fun !
great engineering though.
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Sat Oct 04, 2014 6:23 pm quote
Here's a couple of videos with CNC's.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:15 pm quote
Scootering have done a test ride with one of these... December issue.

Couple of pics to keep you drooling -

1452210_10205600997049126_5519973970414022072_n.jpg

10358891_10205600997449136_3526683199855994729_n.jpg

10437772_10205600998449161_8700004150437299235_n.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:13 pm quote
I went back to this thread the other day to check something and found a lot of the pictures not linked any more, so fixed that.

I see the BSG smallframe case is now available on SIP for 2100... still plenty of spending to be done to fill it up! But I wonder if that's an indication of what the largeframe case will cost?

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcases+bsg+race+for+vespa+_24350000

And that nice clutch to suit is only 385...

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Sun Feb 01, 2015 2:13 pm quote
Lots of work wasted on air-cooled cylinder fed via what's considered 'industrial fan' configuration... I know that these guys can alter cnc specs for other cylinders so liquid cooled configuration is possible (I can thin of a number of liquid cooled snow mobile cylinders more suitable).

Yamaha did a paper in the 70s showing how much the heat soak saps power on an air cooled motor vs liquid cooled and the number is really discouraging. And that conical cylinder head is equally discouraging! Precisely where the motor needs most cooling capacity those guys removed fins because of packaging constraints! The amount of power to be made from improving cooling in the cylinder head area is amazing, and this motor is just pissing in the wind! A shop that has access to cnc and that kid of funding needs to stop fucking around with air cooled cylinders if they want people's money!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:05 pm quote
I see the smallframe case is set up for liquid cooling.

I wonder if they have gone for air cooling simply because they'll sell more? I would have thought that the unit as is will have way more than enough power for most people... not to mention most scooters. Lots of folks wouldn't consider it if they had to install radiators etc. But for ultimate power you're right... maybe that'll be an option once it reaches production?
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
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Sun Feb 01, 2015 8:11 pm quote
the BSG 305 is putting out 51hp. You can put whatever cylinder you want on these cases. The Lambretta version uses same cylinder and is case inducted. Once again yo can use whatever cylinder you want. The swingarm length is adjustable and Lambretta case being reworked to make for fast removal without having to undo motor mounts.
Stop talking like you know more than the BSG Corse guys Begani, Scauri & Graiani. These guys will run circles around everyone here. This is an incredible advance in in the performance world for vintage scooters. This thing will eat Ninja 250s all day. Straight line that is.

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Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:13 pm quote
That's flash reading on the dyno, flog that around for 30 minutes and do a reading then. I had a tuned engine that put out 30hp and the cases would get so hot from heat transfer that they were sizzling!

I dig what they are doing, those cases are beautiful and even after heat soak kicks in that engine is still putting out 40hp (potentially). It's just that it would be great if they geared toward liquid cooled cylinders - there sure are plenty in that stroke/bore configuration.

Ginch, I agree that this set-up was likely developed for ease of installation. It's not the best way to go, but sure is easy to install.

PS, almogavar1969, I have plenty drag racing trophies to back up my mouth.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:25 pm quote
There will be water cooled setups soon enough. The possibilities are endless
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Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:31 pm quote
Sounds great!
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Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:00 am quote
As for engineering, I would be more concerned with how they bolted down the cylinder. I assume they were using socket caps as a shortcut as it simply can't get more poorly designed. Crushing an aluminum flange, not having washers and threading into aluminum are all poor. After all the work that went into the rest of the design, that is amazing! I am surprised their machinist didn't kick them after all his hard work when you know those cases will come back stripped out!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:14 pm quote
TR wrote:
As for engineering, I would be more concerned with how they bolted down the cylinder. I assume they were using socket caps as a shortcut as it simply can't get more poorly designed. Crushing an aluminum flange, not having washers and threading into aluminum are all poor. After all the work that went into the rest of the design, that is amazing! I am surprised their machinist didn't kick them after all his hard work when you know those cases will come back stripped out!
I did wonder how hardy the threads in that base plate would be. It's not a very large area... are there different grades of aluminum - more high-tensile that could take those kind of loads better?

Scooter & Service do a similar thing with their Husqvarna conversion... the plate is held to the case via the original cylinder stud positions, and the new cylinder is bolted down to the plate. It must be a system that does work... but it makes me wonder.

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:42 am quote
They're at it again... now they've developed a 213 kit for a 125/150 case! Supposedly they'll release more details and pricing in "a few days".

69mm bore (same as a Pinasco 213). Looks like your case will need machining. but the cylinder skirt doesn't extend as far down as a normal cylinder. It comes with it's own rod, big end pin and big and small end bearings. Definitely not plug and play!

BSG 150 to 200 1.jpg

BSG 150 to 200 2.jpg

BSG 150 to 200 3.jpg

BSG 150 to 200 4.jpg

BSG 150 to 200 5.jpg

BSG 150 to 200 6.jpg

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Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:48 am quote
Looks lika Lammy barrel
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8054
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Feb 10, 2015 12:49 am quote
SFvsr wrote:
Looks lika Lammy barrel
Is it a typical kind of port layout or something for Lambretta?
Molto Verboso
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Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:20 am quote
ASS outta U & ME
TR wrote:
As for engineering, I would be more concerned with how they bolted down the cylinder. I assume they were using socket caps as a shortcut as it simply can't get more poorly designed....
As you mentioned there are grades of aluminum available with enough strength to tap directly into, 2026 springs to mind. It will be the fool on the end of the nut fucker that ruins it with their general eager noobiness. (then asks about torque specs here)

those cap screws are possibly loctite in for cylinder placement...for whatever reason deemed necessary at the time, possibly for ease of build when setting squish, who knows.

The question remains, could you design and build a better one?

Looks great to me, especially his rotax, where he looks to have modified an original LHS and just CNCd a RH outer to work. bet if he gave you one youd be spinning praise all over the show
Molto Verboso
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Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:43 am quote
I would just like to add my thoughts on this and all things to do with the Vespa.
The engine is a thing of beauty as is the clutch, i could very easily have them on my coffee table and look at them all day long, but I don't know if its the material I like the look off more or the fact its a Vespa engine, probably both.

If I was spending money on development of a part, it would be the chassis. Can you imagine a GS150 or Rally chassis, panels, headset, front hub, forks & mudguard (ok thats a few parts) made from brushed aluminum how good wood that look. As my old boss said about a nice looking girl "you would need an undertaker to get me off that"

Do I want to sit at 90mph on a scooter travelling down the motorway, no. Do I want my chariot to look good sitting at 60mph on nice countryside road, yes.
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