300cc PX motor... start saving
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1182
Location: United States
Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:46 pm quote
The problem with this type of conversion is easier to do with a lambretta due to centralized location of motor. Then you have issue of Vespa being a monocoque body/frame design. Even then it's not a plug and play solution.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1558
Location: UK (South East)
Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:47 am quote
I'm sure it won't be long till someone is building and selling complete engines using the Pinasco case as a base. I think there is a place for a blueprinted/rubber stamped combination of OEM and aftermarket parts, all buttoned together by people with the correct skills and workshop equipment.

The problem with kits, cranks, exhausts, carbs, gearing etc. is that you never truly know what you're going to end up with. SIP attempts to partially address this with their touring and sports combination kits, but even then, you might be starting with compromised cases, sub-standard sealing pads and varying type, quality and condition of bearings and seals.

I can build a good engine over time, but being able to buy an off-the-shelf engine that is built for touring or street racing, with 18bhp, 24bhp or 30bhp (examples) has a certain appeal. Throw in a power (but not speed) guarantee, a warranty, and after sales service and it has some real appeal for those people that just want to ride. Owners of brand new PX125s in the UK spring to mind.
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1182
Location: United States
Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:14 am quote
That's actually a great idea. Just like Rimini Lambretta Center is selling complete SS200/225 motors ready to go - plug and play
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:50 pm quote
Even the Pinasco case has it's problems - which should not happen with a brand new case. Apparently on the rotary cases the clearance from the crank to the rotary pad is twice what the Piaggio or Malossi cases are.
Also they left out the o-ring groove for the kick start... maybe these things will be fixed in subsequent productions.

Yes I'm sure there would be a market for complete engines. Difficult to guarantee them as there's no telling if they would be run in correctly or run with the right jets, fuel or oil. But at least things could be optimised properly... not many of us have the cash to go through all the combinations of parts until it's perfect.

Just thought - S&S have their engine configurator and sell you the kit of parts. That's probably as close as it gets.
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1182
Location: United States
Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:43 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC?

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262
Here is the answer

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/988820511201398
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1558
Location: UK (South East)
Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:05 pm quote
The BSG Corse stuff is very special, but too far removed from a 'proper' Vespa engine for my liking. I know it's precision engineered, very powerful, very imaginative and all that, but the quirks, the unknowns, the often limited budgets and the risks associated with making an old Vespa go fast(er) are all part of the challenge and the fun.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:50 pm quote
almogavar1969 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC?

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262
Here is the answer

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/988820511201398
Sweet! Look how chunky the transfer area is. It'll be interesting to see what price they come in at.

Swa45, I see what you're saying but it's hard not to be overwhelmed by the promise of more power...
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1182
Location: United States
Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:34 pm quote
Supposed to be affordable like the new Casa Case for Lambretta with big ass spigot area and bullet 305 ready. And price on that is supposed to be silly cheap below £500.
I've been riding scorer with tuned motors 30 plus years. The only way to fly.
Always nice to have power at your disposal.

Last edited by almogavar1969 on Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
Two peddles, wheels, cantilevers.
Joined: 14 Nov 2014
Posts: 438
Location: Hawaii
Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:44 am quote
if they can get this far with a standard PX fit, why not ad a VB1 fit?
and an aluminum x magnesium alloy is the standard for high heat.
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e
Joined: 10 Jan 2015
Posts: 1182
Location: United States
Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:31 am quote
Veloce Vulture wrote:
if they can get this far with a standard PX fit, why not ad a VB1 fit?
and an aluminum x magnesium alloy is the standard for high heat.
???
PX & VB1 cases nearly identical in size. The size of 305 cylinder is gonna get in way of things along with intake setup. I wouldnt waste time, money and energy putting into a VB1 period.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:55 pm quote
almogavar1969 wrote:
Always nice to have power at your disposal.
Yep. You can go just as slow with 20hp as you can with 3 if you want to!
Hooked
Allstate 1963
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 396
Location: Melbourne (Australia)
Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:19 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Can an Italian reader here please translate what they are saying? I think maybe it's a less expensive version? Cast instead of CNC?

https://www.facebook.com/bsgcorse.it/posts/961788540571262
Translation for you my friend

We are yet to decide to start casting. We have lined up suppliers. We have all the drawings.
We have casted some PX crankcases with the aluminum we had.
Keeping in mind the need of 70 Kg of aluminum per set this process is quite expensive.
The cases you see in the photos have all been fitted with commercially available kit for PX 125/150 and (by relocating the holes) PX 200; 30-62-16 bearings, external seals, 60 crankshaft, 110 piston rod with 55mm wide shoulders and 102mm flywheel.
Alternatively we can fit our 305cc kit, 64 crankshaft with a 78mm piston and a top quality 68mm reed valve (goodbye SI).
The motor as well as the carburetor (VHSB) seats under the belly.
What are your thoughts?
Should we start casting a few sets?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:58 pm quote
Fabio, you're a star! Don't know why I didn't think of you sooner... cheers for that!
Hooked
Allstate 1963
Joined: 09 Feb 2013
Posts: 396
Location: Melbourne (Australia)
Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:04 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Fabio, you're a star! Don't know why I didn't think of you sooner... cheers for that!
Always a pleasure mate.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Dec 22, 2017 7:30 pm quote
I've just read some comments on Facebook saying that BSG (now BFA Motori) ended up selling only 6 of the 305 motors and are not going to do any more. Not sure if that's correct.
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:29 pm quote
I don't think it's true. They stopped making cnc cases and started casting them to drop the costs down. Check their latest photos...
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2070
Location: Veria, Greece
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2795

Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:43 pm quote
All that tech is super cool...but come on, no 5 (reliable) speed yet? All that time, trouble, and money going into making those cases and no 5 speed? I would have hoped that BFA and DRT could have gotten together to make it happen. Or maybe a 5 speed isn't really needed because the engine has enough torque making a close ratio transmission not needed?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:43 pm quote
Cheers Safis! I was quoted £9000 for a complete motor with Parmakit ignition and (I assume) carb - it was described as "plug & play".
whodatschrome wrote:
Or maybe a 5 speed isn't really needed because the engine has enough torque making a close ratio transmission not needed?
This does seem like the logical answer. Also if they were building it to only fit into these cases, there would be no cost advantage from bigger production runs. A (reliable) 5 speed setup that could fit into standard cases you would have to think would sell very well... maybe one day!

The intake is nice... right at the base of the cylinder, with no crank to get in the way.



Oh, and I noticed the price on the Malossi cases, wonder if this is a mistake? Seems incredibly expensive for basically standard cases!

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/crankcase+malossi+standard_57144930
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:53 pm quote
Today I saw this motor being advertised. 7555 euro for delivery outside of the EU.
https://www.vespmoto.de/bfa-motori-306/english/







The thing that grabbed my attention was this video. The thing sounds like it's hardly working at all!

https://youtu.be/g7DzSJwJuo0

Molto Verboso
'74 Rally, '72 Sprint
Joined: 30 May 2013
Posts: 1147
Location: Melbourne, London, Durham NC
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:28 pm quote
Did you put down your deposit??
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:46 pm quote
AlanMac wrote:
Did you put down your deposit??
It's down the back of the couch!
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2903
Location: Nashville
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:54 am quote
At the beginning of the video, I was a little, "Meh, this isn't all that impressive."

When he shifted from 3rd up to 4th at about 30 seconds was when my jaw dropped.

bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x 2), 74 Primavera (x 2), 06 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5509
Location: So Cal
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:12 am quote
“V-max at this setup about > 160 km/h”

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:00 pm quote
chandlerman wrote:
At the beginning of the video, I was a little, "Meh, this isn't all that impressive."

When he shifted from 3rd up to 4th at about 30 seconds was when my jaw dropped.

Yeah that thing sounds like it's hardly trying. And I don't want to do 160 but just knowing you could, that would be really something.

Check out his site, the Quattrini 260 (!) is half the price and almost as quick.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
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Location: That bushfire place
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:47 am quote
Finished saving?
Has anyone (most likely a single person) saved enough yet to to buy one of these?
Hooked
GS160
Joined: 11 Jun 2014
Posts: 292
Location: Åland
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:02 am quote
Yeah, some owner’s reviews would be nice. How long does the crucifiorm last..?
Ossessionato
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2903
Location: Nashville
Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:44 am quote
Vespoholic wrote:
Yeah, some owner’s reviews would be nice. How long does the crucifiorm last..?
In miles or minutes?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Oct 08, 2020 6:10 pm quote
BFA 244.

No it's not a 306, but should be way more affordable and no doubt go like stink. What I find impressive is the solution to tiny (compared to motorcycle) transfers with an adaptor plate that changes stud location. Loving the port layout.
It's for a standard 200 case and uses a 127mm rod.

Clipboard01.jpg

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1558
Location: UK (South East)
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:31 am quote
So this is all about getting the exhaust port wider and/or auxiliary ports added with a stock 200 case, and getting that extra 10-15 hp that Jack always refers to, in order to go beyond the max ~40hp that is achievable with a highly tuned MHR setup?

How would this compare to a Quattrini 260 setup, which uses a 64mm stroke and 127mm rod? I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:38 am quote
swa45 wrote:
I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing?
Not really. The adaptor plate is bolted to the cases, and the cylinder is bolted to the adaptor plate... so in theory, the cylinder studs/bolts can go wherever they want to put them.
You would have to think that this will produce a lot more hp than the Quattrini because the porting design is much more aggressive for a start. Also the Q was designed as a tourer with fairly mild timings I believe. Whereas the BFA 306's "stock" exhaust is an expansion chamber. Think that says something about their design intent.

We'll have to wait for a while to see actual numbers, but I imagine this is going to be a good 20% more powerful than the Quattrini.
Member
2012 GTV 300, 2005 Genuine Stella w/ hack, 1974 Rally 200
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Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:55 am quote
My 306 is currently being built.

IMG_1180.jpeg

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Location: UK (South East)
Fri Oct 09, 2020 2:59 am quote
Ginch wrote:
swa45 wrote:
I guess this is still limited to the stock 200 stud spacing?
Not really. The adaptor plate is bolted to the cases, and the cylinder is bolted to the adaptor plate... so in theory, the cylinder studs/bolts can go wherever they want to put them.
You would have to think that this will produce a lot more hp than the Quattrini because the porting design is much more aggressive for a start. Also the Q was designed as a tourer with fairly mild timings I believe. Whereas the BFA 306's "stock" exhaust is an expansion chamber. Think that says something about their design intent.

We'll have to wait for a while to see actual numbers, but I imagine this is going to be a good 20% more powerful than the Quattrini.
Thanks Ginch. Sorry, I was referring to the Quattrini being limited to the stock stud spacing.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Fri Oct 09, 2020 6:20 am quote
Looks like someone at BFA reads our forum.

Remember this thread? Cylinder Stud Patterns from 2 years ago?
Quote:
If someone would just make a P200 cylinder that had short base studs like a small frame 50. Then the cylinder could be anything you wanted it to be. No limits. Not sure the rest of the scooter could handle it though.
Certainly looks like they actually made it. When can I buy one?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Oct 09, 2020 5:45 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
How would this compare to a Quattrini 260 setup?
Yeah think I mistook your point! At Vespmoto (who sells complete motors) he's saying the 260 has around 31hp using a PipeDesign box, and that the 306 has about 46 using his own box exhaust.
So for this new 244, that has very similar looking aggressive porting to the 306 (but is a little more restricted in the case transfer area compared to the 306), you'd have to think it would put it in the high 30's at least? And more with an expansion.
Jack221 wrote:
Looks like someone at BFA reads our forum.

Remember this thread? Cylinder Stud Patterns from 2 years ago?
Quote:
If someone would just make a P200 cylinder that had short base studs like a small frame 50. Then the cylinder could be anything you wanted it to be. No limits. Not sure the rest of the scooter could handle it though.
Certainly looks like they actually made it. When can I buy one?
They've done that with the 306 but not this new cylinder Jack. Not that it will hold them back I think!
dub97603 wrote:
My 306 is currently being built.
Nice! Are you building it yourself?
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2504
Location: London UK
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:50 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
They've done that with the 306 but not this new cylinder Jack. Not that it will hold them back I think!
Made more sense reading our whole thread. Getting away from the stock 200 stud pattern was the point.
Don't get too hung up on the base transfer size. It's always the exhaust port that's the issue but that's fixed on this.
If this BFA244 becomes widely available it could easily be the most powerful for the stock cases.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:00 pm quote
No I get what you mean, it's not the separately bolted base flange that's important, it's the pattern itself. Which as you say is fixed.

There's certainly no reason it won't be widely available as SIP are their manufacturer/sales partner now. It's only cost that will hold us back... the Quattrini cylinder at SIP is 576 euro, and the BFA 225 (probably the closest comparison currently) is 1162 euro.
Molto Verboso
2007 Stella 150
Joined: 02 Nov 2019
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Location: Rochester, Minnesota
Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:02 am quote
Someone should make that adapter plate to put a Malossi 210 on the smaller 150 case. I wonder how it would run. It wouldn’t be perfect but you could port the 150 case out a reasonable amount and get better air flow than a factory 200.
Addicted
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Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:55 am quote
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 8014
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Oct 10, 2020 4:42 pm quote
Christopher_55934 wrote:
Someone should make that adapter plate to put a Malossi 210 on the smaller 150 case. I wonder how it would run. It wouldn’t be perfect but you could port the 150 case out a reasonable amount and get better air flow than a factory 200.
Been done, but not on the market yet I believe. At least, an adapter plate is the only way I can imagine it would work given the clues he's dropped.

https://scooterlab.uk/jg-vespa-200-cylinder-conversion-for-the-px125-feature/

200 cylinder for 150 case
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