Vespa vs Chinese Scooters
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Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:39 am quote
kz1000ST wrote:
The Tao Tao pilot noted on Twitter this morning that it blew a front brake hose.
For others following . . Twitter link.
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Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:00 pm quote
Stromrider wrote:
... Over here in the UK Chinese scooters and bikes are now very very good quality machines. We don't get the issues that some of those machines suffered 10 years ago. You can go buy almost any Chinese bike and it'll give great service. I've worked on a number of them regarding servicing, and no issues.
Didn't you used to say the same thing about British cars?
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Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:10 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
... Over here in the UK Chinese scooters and bikes are now very very good quality machines. We don't get the issues that some of those machines suffered 10 years ago. You can go buy almost any Chinese bike and it'll give great service. I've worked on a number of them regarding servicing, and no issues.
Didn't you used to say the same thing about British cars?
No!

I'm a Nissan and Honda trained mater tech. Wouldn't work for a British franchise from back then. Maybe would now as we make great cars.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:54 am quote
And on it goes. Playing with the carburetor when the scooter runs fine simply because the plug looks white is a dead end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg55SpQqUwg&t=0s
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:21 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Stromrider wrote:
... Over here in the UK Chinese scooters and bikes are now very very good quality machines. We don't get the issues that some of those machines suffered 10 years ago. You can go buy almost any Chinese bike and it'll give great service. I've worked on a number of them regarding servicing, and no issues.
Didn't you used to say the same thing about British cars?
...low blow...
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:28 am quote
Tao Tao...
I would begin to change the name, for the western markets it seems the brand of a rickshaw ... No offense.
QJ bought the Benelli brand to ennoble the product that already is but "the eye wants its part too"
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Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:12 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Tao Tao...
I would begin to change the name, for the western markets it seems the brand of a rickshaw ... No offense.
QJ bought the Benelli brand to ennoble the product that already is but "the eye wants its part too"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

Is a Chinese word signifying the "way", "path", "route", "road". In this Country the Tao Tao Pony is a leading selling scooter being used by Tourist Scooter Rental Companies in resort towns. They use them for a season then sell them off to make way for new purchases for the next year.
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Sun Jul 26, 2020 12:15 am quote
kz1000ST wrote:
Attila wrote:
Tao Tao...
I would begin to change the name, for the western markets it seems the brand of a rickshaw ... No offense.
QJ bought the Benelli brand to ennoble the product that already is but "the eye wants its part too"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao

Is a Chinese word signifying the "way", "path", "route", "road". In this Country the Tao Tao Pony is a leading selling scooter being used by Tourist Scooter Rental Companies in resort towns. They use them for a season then sell them off to make way for new purchases for the next year.
I agree on the regional meaning of the word but marketing is quite another thing, there are various examples of name changes regarding the brand or brand creation with assonance that refers to something Japanese that in this field is now a symbol of reliability; this happened years ago with the Cagiva brand.
The sound makes the vehicles appear to be Japanese production but is formed by the initials CAstiglioni GIovanni VArese, name of the owner and place of production.
It is a market strategy, manufacturers cannot also impose a cultural change through names or terms, other brands have changed the name of the model or brand (Cagiva ex Aermacchi AMF);
but maybe I'm just worried by what you don't see or talk about, "timeo Danaos et dona ferentes", I fear the Danai [= the Greeks], even when they bring gifts »Words that Virgil (Aeneid II, 49) does to pronounce to Laocoonte, when he wants to dissuade the Trojans from welcoming the wooden horse left by the Greeks into the city.
Attention, it might seem like a slippery speech on the edge of politics and maybe it is but I see it this way.
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Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:31 am quote
Attila wrote:
I agree on the regional meaning of the word but marketing is quite another thing.......
The Japanese sorted this out long ago. Marketing involves cultural differences and social norms. Direct translations usually don't work either. It's been a while since we saw a Datsun Fairlady or a Mitsubishi Silver Pidgeon.
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Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:34 am quote
Times have changed, sales strategies also hide other objectives ... not always acceptable. I don't say anything else.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:21 pm quote
Attila wrote:
Times have changed, sales strategies also hide other objectives ... not always acceptable. I don't say anything else.
Maybe in Italy Cagiva sounds Japanese. No one in this Country thought so. It has too many vowels and it hung on Ducatis. Over the years Chinese scooters have carried so many different names Tao Tao at least points to its Country of origin. While not an accepted brand name it doesn't hide where it comes from.
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Sun Jul 26, 2020 7:48 pm quote
We didn't understand each other, we keep going around the topic; for example ... why did QJ buy the Benelli brand (and not Bentelli or other variants) instead of selling under the QJ brand?
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:34 am quote
No affiliation, just "for what it's worth" info . . .

Original equipment non-adjustable idle speed screw cap on a newer model GY6 150 scooter, in addition to mixture screw cap and tamper-resistant carb bowl fasteners.

Vitacci Spark 150


Molto Verboso
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Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:44 am quote
Attila wrote:
We didn't understand each other, we keep going around the topic; for example ... why did QJ buy the Benelli brand (and not Bentelli or other variants) instead of selling under the QJ brand?
For the same reason Polaris bought Indian even though they already had Victory.

They bought a name with instant heritage. Benelli is how old? about 100 years? QJ is a division of Geely who now owns Volvo.

The irony is that QJ builds/built Keeway and it had a pretty good reputation while Geely builds Coleman and some other low budget scooters of questionable reputation.

Most people who buy Benelli will think they are getting an old Italian maker machine without knowing or caring if it's built in China.
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Tue Jul 28, 2020 7:08 am quote
Attila wrote:
Tao Tao...
I would begin to change the name, for the western markets it seems the brand of a rickshaw ... No offense.
QJ bought the Benelli brand to ennoble the product that already is but "the eye wants its part too"
Tao Tao is slang for condom. Read into that what you will.
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Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:33 am quote
tortoise wrote:
No affiliation, just "for what it's worth" info . . .

Original equipment non-adjustable idle speed screw cap on a newer model GY6 150 scooter, in addition to mixture screw cap and tamper-resistant carb bowl fasteners.

Vitacci Spark 150
While I don't like the permanently fixed non-adjusters, have you ever priced carbs for the GY6? It's almost laughable. Right around 30 bucks.
For that price at the Aprilia dealer they would have allowed me to walk on their floor and enjoy a coffee. Not saying you don't get what you pay for, though.

I just replaced another belt on the ZNEN after the last one exploded. Fortunately it happened within pushing distance of the house. Which is great because I put about 150 miles on it in the two days preceding.

IMG_8285.jpg

IMG_8284.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:25 am quote
How many miles on the Znen? You have had it a while?
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Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:05 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
Tao Tao is slang for condom. Read into that what you will.
Really needs to be inspected before use and likely to break if you're too rough on it?
Molto Verboso
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:08 am quote
Motovista wrote:
Attila wrote:
Tao Tao...
I would begin to change the name, for the western markets it seems the brand of a rickshaw ... No offense.
QJ bought the Benelli brand to ennoble the product that already is but "the eye wants its part too"
Tao Tao is slang for condom. Read into that what you will.
Just wondered if you've posted that info on your scooter parts website?
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:26 am quote
I'd guess that more American owners of Chinese scooters put more miles on them each year than do many American Vespa owners.
....and, if forums are an accurate indicator -- with a whole lot less anxiety...

O.S.
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:31 am quote
If we use them as indicators, here in Italy you don't see Chinese scooters made in PRC, they are on sale but the competition between brands is fierce ...
Only Kymko if we consider them Chinese but they are gaining the name, it is the importer that guarantees reliable assistance and on the whole territory.
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Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:07 am quote
OldSchooot wrote:
I'd guess that more American owners of Chinese scooters put more miles on them each year than do many American Vespa owners.
As most Chinascoots in the US are 50s, I'm not sure that is true.
OldSchooot wrote:
.and, if forums are an accurate indicator -- with a whole lot less anxiety...
If forums are accurate indicators, most Chinascoot riders know next to nothing about the mechanics or maintenance needs of their ride.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:10 am quote
According to the Twitter account and his trip log the Tao Tao is back up and running. It took him eleven days to acquire the brake line and install it. Of course he ran through a rain storm, broke down and found his ground pin in the CDI wasn't installed fully. He fixed that and is off again.
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:40 am quote
This is a long thread. So I wanted to make clear that I am responding to the initial question in the original post. Last fall I bought a Chinese scooter. Very soon I realized that they are not Vespas. I paid for the pre delivery inspection and ended up having to install the top box by self. Then I was left with the task of adjusting the idle several times. Then my right indicator light on the instrument panel went out. And last week upon closer inspection I realized that one of the screws that support the exhaust snapped. Also it has a one-piece exhaust so one of the screws that hold the exhaust to the engine got to loose and I had to replace it. I guess there will be a lot more to come.
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:01 am quote
Max6200 wrote:
Last fall I bought a Chinese scooter.
Which specific model? Is there a non-adjustable cap over the carb idle-speed screw?

Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:08 am quote
tortoise wrote:
Max6200 wrote:
Last fall I bought a Chinese scooter.
Which specific model? Is there a non-adjustable cap over the carb idle-speed screw?

No

It is a Falcon 200
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:30 am quote
Max6200 wrote:
Falcon 200
168.9cc . . so probably a GY6-B engine, which is slightly more robust than the typical GY6.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:34 am quote
Max6200 wrote:
This is a long thread. So I wanted to make clear that I am responding to the initial question in the original post. Last fall I bought a Chinese scooter. Very soon I realized that they are not Vespas. I paid for the pre delivery inspection and ended up having to install the top box by self. Then I was left with the task of adjusting the idle several times. Then my right indicator light on the instrument panel went out. And last week upon closer inspection I realized that one of the screws that support the exhaust snapped. Also it has a one-piece exhaust so one of the screws that hold the exhaust to the engine got to loose and I had to replace it. I guess there will be a lot more to come.
I will be the first person to admit that Chinese scooters start out with niggling quality control issues. Eventually they level out and are no more annoying than scooters costing many times more. Until they do keep the wrenches handy and monitor nuts and bolts for tightness.
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Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:42 am quote
tortoise wrote:
Max6200 wrote:
Falcon 200
168.9cc . . so probably a GY6-B engine, which is slightly more robust than the typical GY6.
Yes you are correct. I find it a little bit dumbfounding that I redline it every time I open up the throttle wide open. Vespa are not like that.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:53 pm quote
Well the verdict is in. The Tao Tao makes him too nervous to use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8WVIYZv5VY&t=340s
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Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:04 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
Well the verdict is in. The Tao Tao makes him too nervous to use.
And only some of that is due to the experience of riding a scooter with a weak 50cc engine in Texas traffic with all that implies. That bike has issues.

I can understand it being tuned far too lean, and sub-optimal clutch engagement (sounds like it locks up too soon, not letting the engine get into its powerband until after the variator comes off minimum ratio -- maybe this is to prevent clutch wear?). But failing steering head bearings and a front brake line dragging on the tire? Not acceptable.
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Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:57 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
Well the verdict is in. The Tao Tao makes him too nervous to use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8WVIYZv5VY&t=340s
1000 miles is a spit...,is anyone afraid to go further? Let's test at 10,000 miles and then see.
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Sun Aug 16, 2020 11:41 am quote
Rusty J wrote:
kz1000ST wrote:
Well the verdict is in. The Tao Tao makes him too nervous to use.
And only some of that is due to the experience of riding a scooter with a weak 50cc engine in Texas traffic with all that implies. That bike has issues.

I can understand it being tuned far too lean, and sub-optimal clutch engagement (sounds like it locks up too soon, not letting the engine get into its powerband until after the variator comes off minimum ratio -- maybe this is to prevent clutch wear?). But failing steering head bearings and a front brake line dragging on the tire? Not acceptable.
Maybe I'm a little loose on maintenance but this guy goes way overboard to me. He sensed some looseness in the steering head bearings and chased right after it. Really? Is he certain that it wasn't something else? Like he didn't tighten the steering assembly to the stem properly. It would give you the same sensation. Been there, fixed that. Steering head bearing failure? Check your other work Dude.

I spoke to him on Twitter about the brake hose. We agreed it was possible that the hose wasn't moving freely as the suspension compressed and rebounded and tugged on the bracket holding it to the fork, breaking it. I've assembled a crate scooter. Once again, was the brake line placed properly when he installed the steering head that it had enough slack to move freely.

Up till now I didn't know how big this guy was. Six feet, four inches and over two hundred pounds. Imagine a 50cc scooter having the nerve to accelerate slowly. Kids.
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Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:13 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
How many miles on the Znen? You have had it a while?
So, I'm glad you asked. It's been a rough month for the ZNEN. I blew a belt, picked up a nail in the rear tire and the speedo quit working.








I fixed the belt had the tire replaced and replaced the speedo head. Not all at once. It was long and painful. Time constraints and all. Fortunately I had the Aprilia to keep me rolling.

Last weekend, after the speedo head, I adjusted the idle, throttle cable, rear brake, changed the rear gear oil and polished pretty much everything. I am in love with the ZNEN again.

And to answer your question, I have a little over 9200 miles. I'm sure I'll hit 10K this summer.

And, honestly, it runs every bit as good as it ever has. After the belt explosion I'm considering replacing the clutch and the variator anyway. Polini makes an adjustable clutch for about $90. I realize that's 3x the price of the stock clutch, but it's ADJUSTABLE! And I probably get a Polini sticker.

So, yeah. It's been a good ride. I always compare the ZNEN to my old VWs. People claim the Beetles were such great cars ... but no they weren't. But you COULD keep them running a long time with a lot of maintenance.

Looking back at the years and the miles and the scooters I've had, I wouldn't change my initial decision. The ZNEN was absolutely the right choice. It got me into scootering and taught me a lot. I've loved every bike we've had, all for different reasons. But the ZNEN is special.

Thanks for asking! And thanks for everyone's input. I hope this thread helps someone else make a decision.

Molto Verboso
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Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:45 pm quote
Ah, The scooter formerly known as the Flyscooter Il Bello, Roketa Capri and now the Wolf Jet II. Live long and prosper.
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Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:51 pm quote
kz1000ST wrote:
Ah, The scooter formerly known as the Flyscooter Il Bello, Roketa Capri and now the Wolf Jet II. Live long and prosper.
'Tis the same.
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Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:22 pm quote
GY6 150 off-pavement video series.
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Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:42 pm quote
seamus26 wrote:
kz1000ST wrote:
How many miles on the Znen? You have had it a while?
Glad you like your Znen.
Every time I go to Florida I talk with riders of this brand of scooter and check the odo's of those with no owner around..
They ride the heck out of them ....and tend to like them.
Do they know a lot about servicing them?....Not usually - but then they just keep running. So, no reason to muck with them other than changing the oil (s).
I owned a/c'd VW's for 40 yrs.
Drove most of them to nearly 200,000 before getting a new one. Tune them up for a pittance, change the oil, pop on new radials, keep the rust at bay --- fabulously reliable vehicles. When they stopped making them - I finally had to go to the only other car its equal - anything Japanese.

O.S.
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Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:26 pm quote
OldSchooot wrote:
I'd guess that more American owners of Chinese scooters put more miles on them each year than do many American Vespa owners.
....and, if forums are an accurate indicator -- with a whole lot less anxiety...

O.S.
They push them farther too.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:45 am quote
My Falcon 200 exhaust cracked and I need a new one. It will probably be a few months for me to get the order from China. They told me it was been shipped by container! What the hell does that mean?

20200909_100233.jpg

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