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I've read that some people have replaced the original 4th gear cog on large frame Vespas (mostly P), with the T5 analogue, which has more teeth and therefore allows for a higher top speed.
True? Worthwhile?
Is there anyone here that could share pros and cons?
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No.. using a 36 tooth T5 pr DRT "short 4th" gear will actually make your top speed slower at any given RPM. I can't explain the whole thing now.. my brain is mush after 14 long mind numbing hours of work, but someone (I think I know who! Razz emoticon ) will come on and explain.
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Fascinating post, thanks man!
In summary, knowing that I have a malossi 210 installed, if I wanted a longer gear ratio to increase top speed at reduced rpm I should ...?

To give you an example, back when I was a kid, with our 50 specials we used to simply put a 90 cc. kit, 19mm carb and the good old Pinasco "straight teeth" clutch kit, which would grant an overall longer transmission ratio for an increase top speed at lower rpm. I am looking for a similar solution here ...

Thanks much for sharing
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A mate increased his top speed by fitting a (short) t5 4th gear. He was able to change into 4th without dropping too far out of the power band... as demonstrated in Rob's excellent post.

One option - should you find yourself changing gears too quickly - is a gear-up kit http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/gearbox+2463+teeth+malossi+_20301000
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Ginch wrote:
A mate increased his top speed by fitting a (short) t5 4th gear. He was able to change into 4th without dropping]
Yeah bur that's practical.. If he had the motor to pull the standard 4th he would have gone slightly faster
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Vader19 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
A mate increased his top speed by fitting a (short) t5 4th gear. He was able to change into 4th without dropping]
Yeah bur that's practical.. If he had the motor to pull the standard 4th he would have gone slightly faster
a common setup about ten years ago before many of the gear options available now were available was to go to the 125 4th gear, dropping gearing abut 2.8% on top, but then going to the 23/64 malossi/polini primary that raised all 4 gears about 1.5%. this lowered your gearing on 4th about 1%, but brought first thru third closer to fourth.

there are better ways to do that now a days, but if you wantot pull a stock 4th, it isn't about having the motor to pul it, it's better to tighten up the gear ratios with a closer ratio gearbox. you can get such a thing now from DRT, and while i haven't used it (yet) i do believe it'd make for an amazingly rideable bike when coupled to a high output setup.

there's also another option worth looking into, and that is using a DRT gear to raise 3rd, rather than the 125 gear to lower 4th. that'd be the budget way to improve your speed with gearing on a tuned 200.

pulling stock 200 gearing gets *harder* the more you tune your engine because in general the more power you produce, the higher the RPM you prodcuce it at. the higher the rpm you spin the engine to, the larger the gaps between gears become, and the more power required to pull the high gearing.

as the original poster states they have a malossi 210, i'd caution them against setting their hopes on higher speed by raising the gearing, but if they wanted to try, a 4% gearing raise would be possible with a clutch gear swap. it'd be easily undoable once they realize that it would gut their ability to pull seattle hills or ride wit ha passenger. if you're interested, let me know.
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rob hodge wrote:
Vader19 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
A mate increased his top speed by fitting a (short) t5 4th gear. He was able to change into 4th without dropping]
Yeah bur that's practical.. If he had the motor to pull the standard 4th he would have gone slightly faster
a common setup about ten years ago before many of the gear options available now were available was to go to the 125 4th gear, dropping gearing abut 2.8% on top, but then going to the 23/64 malossi/polini primary that raised all 4 gears about 1.5%. this lowered your gearing on 4th about 1%, but brought first thru third closer to fourth.

there are better ways to do that now a days, but if you wantot pull a stock 4th, it isn't about having the motor to pul it, it's better to tighten up the gear ratios with a closer ratio gearbox. you can get such a thing now from DRT, and while i haven't used it (yet) i do believe it'd make for an amazingly rideable bike when coupled to a high output setup.

there's also another option worth looking into, and that is using a DRT gear to raise 3rd, rather than the 125 gear to lower 4th. that'd be the budget way to improve your speed with gearing on a tuned 200.

pulling stock 200 gearing gets *harder* the more you tune your engine because in general the more power you produce, the higher the RPM you prodcuce it at. the higher the rpm you spin the engine to, the larger the gaps between gears become, and the more power required to pull the high gearing.

as the original poster states they have a malossi 210, i'd caution them against setting their hopes on higher speed by raising the gearing, but if they wanted to try, a 4% gearing raise would be possible with a clutch gear swap. it'd be easily undoable once they realize that it would gut their ability to pull seattle hills or ride wit ha passenger. if you're interested, let me know.
Exactly
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Vader19 wrote:
Ginch wrote:
A mate increased his top speed by fitting a (short) t5 4th gear. He was able to change into 4th without dropping]
Yeah bur that's practical.. If he had the motor to pull the standard 4th he would have gone slightly faster
But see that's in theory that he would have gone faster. In the real world his peak power simply didn't match up to the rpm when he was in 4th.
rob hodge wrote:
... a 4% gearing raise would be possible with a clutch gear swap. it'd be easily undoable once they realize that it would gut their ability to pull seattle hills or ride wit ha passenger. if you're interested, let me know.
I run a stock 23/65 on the Polini 218. What clutch options do you know of to raise that? I'd be interested if it gave me the option to swap clutches to suit different ride conditions.
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rob hodge wrote:
there are better ways to do that now a days, but if you wantot pull a stock 4th, it isn't about having the motor to pul it, it's better to tighten up the gear ratios with a closer ratio gearbox. you can get such a thing now from DRT, and while i haven't used it (yet) i do believe it'd make for an amazingly rideable bike when coupled to a high output setup.

there's also another option worth looking into, and that is using a DRT gear to raise 3rd, rather than the 125 gear to lower 4th. that'd be the budget way to improve your speed with gearing on a tuned 200.
I am not interested obviously in having a setup that would make the hills of Seattle a challenge. Our renown bad drivers are all the challenge I can take!
I am interested however in the DRT gearbox you mentioned. I looked it up and there's way too many options.
What would you recommend for my setup?
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manualshift wrote:
rob hodge wrote:
there are better ways to do that now a days, but if you wantot pull a stock 4th, it isn't about having the motor to pul it, it's better to tighten up the gear ratios with a closer ratio gearbox. you can get such a thing now from DRT, and while i haven't used it (yet) i do believe it'd make for an amazingly rideable bike when coupled to a high output setup.

there's also another option worth looking into, and that is using a DRT gear to raise 3rd, rather than the 125 gear to lower 4th. that'd be the budget way to improve your speed with gearing on a tuned 200.
I am not interested obviously in having a setup that would make the hills of Seattle a challenge. Our renown bad drivers are all the challenge I can take!
I am interested however in the DRT gearbox you mentioned. I looked it up and there's way too many options.
What would you recommend for my setup?
well, what do you like about how your setup handles now, and what do you dislike about it?
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Easy ...
I love everything, except I'd love it to go 10 more mph.
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What sort of pipe are you running? What are you topping out at now?
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105 Km/h so a bit over 65 mph.
Not bad, but the engine still runs at such high rpm when at top speed that I feel I could easily squeeze in a few more Km/h. That's why I was thinking about tweaking the gear.
I have a standard brand new original Piaggio pipe. I cannot stand loud engines ...

I also swapped the original 24 carb for a 26.
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manualshift wrote:
105 Km/h so a bit over 65 mph.
Not bad, but the engine still runs at such high rpm when at top speed that I feel I could easily squeeze in a few more Km/h. That's why I was thinking about tweaking the gear.
I have a standard brand new original Piaggio pipe. I cannot stand loud engines ...

I also swapped the original 24 carb for a 26.
in your case, i'd strongly recommend a different pipe. or a different cylinder. not higher gearing. if all you are getting is 65 mph, you're only hitting 6000 rpm. this is hardly high for a tuned setup, and honestly probably not even in to the normal meat of the malossi 210's power band. your bike is being strangled by the stock exhaust.

To get 10 mph more out of it, you'd need to turn a little under 1000 RPM more.

attached is a dyno run for a SIP road, with a malossi 210 and a 24 SI carb. as you can see, this will most likely give you exactly that.

as far as noise, it's about a mild as one can get except for the stock pipe.


the malossi likes to rev. it is what it is designed for. if you want to try to pull higher gearing, you really need a kit more designed for torque, like a polini 208.
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Ginch wrote:
rob hodge wrote:
... a 4% gearing raise would be possible with a clutch gear swap. it'd be easily undoable once they realize that it would gut their ability to pull seattle hills or ride wit ha passenger. if you're interested, let me know.
I run a stock 23/65 on the Polini 218. What clutch options do you know of to raise that? I'd be interested if it gave me the option to swap clutches to suit different ride conditions.
DRT has developed a 24 tooth cog to fit the standard 65 primary.

so you now have 20-24 tooth cogs available to git the standard 65.
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I installed the DRT 24 cog. Not pleased. I plan to change crank to 60 mm stroke and then maybe. I wanted to try because with 23 cog it did very well.

PX200, T5 fourth gear, Malossi 210, remade head, SI24/24, autolube. Tried SIP Road, BGM BigBox, PM Evo.
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Vespoholic wrote:
I installed the DRT 24 cog. Not pleased. I plan to change crank to 60 mm stroke and then maybe. I wanted to try because with 23 cog it did very well.

PX200, T5 fourth gear, Malossi 210, remade head, SI24/24, autolube. Tried SIP Road, BGM BigBox, PM Evo.
hence my comet about it begin easily swappable once you realize your malossi 210 won't pull it.

really, with a malossi 210 unless you are running a bike with a full expansion chamber and a reed valve side draft carb you probably need lower gearing than stock, not higher.

however, polini's work well with higher gearing.
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rob hodge wrote:
in your case, i'd strongly recommend a different pipe. or a different cylinder. not higher gearing. if all you are getting is 65 mph, you're only hitting 6000 rpm. this is hardly high for a tuned setup, and honestly probably not even in to the normal meat of the malossi 210's power band. your bike is being strangled by the stock exhaust.
Exactly, I tried a stock exhaust on my Malossi and could barely get over 60, with the sip road it's getting up there again. Not as high as when I had the expansion, but fast enough. I'm not sure if you'll see a real 75mph with the SIP Road or not but you'll get closer.
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rob hodge wrote:
there's also another option worth looking into, and that is using a DRT gear to raise 3rd, rather than the 125 gear to lower 4th. that'd be the budget way to improve your speed with gearing on a tuned 200.

Now that I like Rob. I had what I presume was a shitty T5 4th on mine that chewed a number of teeth whilst I was out-and-fortunately not to far from home-about. Made a hell of a racket and I guessed what had happened and pushed the bugger home. Rallys get bloody heavy after a few longish hills.

Anyway, I have swapped back to the standard 4th and it runs OK, but the ratio gap between 3rd and 4th isn't great (hence why it had the T5 4th). Raising the 3rd would work well and I always feel like the 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears are a wee bit too close, and then the 4th seems miles away. raising third would be a better win in my limited experience.

Now you have me contemplating ANOTHER case split to improve the ride....

That, and I'll have to nag Ginch to get a view on putting a decent Disc brake set-up on. Had a few faster than expected braking experiences over the past trip to Melbourne which has made this a more attractive project!
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My experience with the 24 clutch cog is that 1-2-3 work really well, not too close at all. Neiter 1st or 2nd are ridiculously short, even needs a little throttle (or slide..) to get away. I could try even shorter 4th tho.

For next season I'll add 60 mm crank with 1,5 mm head spacer, try std 4th and hope it pulls even with 24 on clutch.

Just my cents.
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AlanMac wrote:
That, and I'll have to nag Ginch to get a view on putting a decent Disc brake set-up on. Had a few faster than expected braking experiences over the past trip to Melbourne which has made this a more attractive project!
We can do that!
Vespoholic wrote:
My experience with the 24 clutch cog is that 1-2-3 work really well, not too close at all. Neiter 1st or 2nd are ridiculously short, even needs a little throttle (or slide..) to get away. I could try even shorter 4th tho.
Is there an even shorter 4th?
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Ginch wrote:
AlanMac wrote:
That, and I'll have to nag Ginch to get a view on putting a decent Disc brake set-up on. Had a few faster than expected braking experiences over the past trip to Melbourne which has made this a more attractive project!
We can do that!

And that's why we love you il ginchi
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AlanMac wrote:
Ginch wrote:
AlanMac wrote:
That, and I'll have to nag Ginch to get a view on putting a decent Disc brake set-up on. Had a few faster than expected braking experiences over the past trip to Melbourne which has made this a more attractive project!
We can do that!

And that's why we love you il ginchi
I'm wanting to use 8" wheels on Speedy, so possibly may have a very fine 10" front end ex AnaKey available for th Ginch-Mobile.
I throw the gear up kit & longer LML gear ratio will be NUTS on 8" wheels, & after riding for 3 days on th way to Sydney in 3rd, I know long long gears are not always the answer, unless you want to go 130-140km/h!
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
...I know long long gears are not always the answer...
That didn't take long!
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Ginch wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
...I know long long gears are not always the answer...
That didn't take long!
Long, long, long I say.
But 8" will make it a rocket
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