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I used a heat gun to warm the buffer, it was almost too hot to touch, but it didn't help. I'll try shaving it down a bit, thanks.

How can I be sure the main seal is seated? I don't want to try to put the crank in until I know the seal is set.
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Have a look at the factory drift for the seal. It has a large flat surface that basically allows it to go in square and level to the outside edge of the case. You dont want it rubbing against the inner race. Its just a tight push fit. As long as it goes in flat without warping itll be fine. There has been some mention of loctiting the seal in. Ive never done it and never had any trouble with my builds so far.

*EDIT* correction i mightve loctite the pinasco build but cant remember, but i dont think it matters either way. theyve been push fit without fastening gel for years
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Thanks for the tip on shaving down the buffers, that did the trick. I think the fly side case is now fully prepped.

Reading up on the main seal install, I found that scooterhelp mentions that it may not sit flush. Looking at mine, I'm satisfied that it's OK. It's not touching the bearing inner race, but it's well in there. Guess we'll find out if I'm right

I'm going to try freezing the crank to install it tomorrow.

A question about O rings: I bought a Rally gasket set but there's no explanation of what gaskets and o rings are included. I have a couple of the latter that I can't ID. In the picture below, it's the three small black ones at bottom. I know the orange one is the oil drain bolt gasket. I have already replaced the kick start and clutch lever rings, so it's not those. Looking at my exploded diagram, maybe one goes inside the break cam?
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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the 3 that are joined are for the backing plate.


the single 1 is for the clutch actuating lever (i think)....its not? ill look it up and get back to you- cant remember...bugger im only guessing now, i just built one of these 3 weeks ago too. it may go in the top of the clutch cover? sorry cant totally remember.


2 are for the rear brake arm (again, i think)

ok as far as the seal goes, it needs to be fairly straight. its round going into round, if its warped at all, it wont seal or itll wear unevenly. but i couldnt imagine 1.5 mm max being much of an issue. but this is only a guess. its really easy to get it flat with the right tool, and kinda easy to push it in unevenly with a socket.

honestly itd be a pita if it leaked outright, but theres some flex and forgiveness in them, im not trying to scaremonger you, but it would suck if you had to pull it and split it all again because you installed it incorrectly and left it, thinking half cupcake was kapai
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The difference in the height of the lip around the outside of the seal is minute. Not even 1mm. I think it's OK.

On the o rings, I definitely put in the clutch arm and kickstart quadrant ones. My exploded diagram doesn't show one in the clutch cover breather. It only shows a single one in the rear brake cam. Oh, I wonder if one is for the front cam?

I know the hard orange gasket is for the oil drain bolt. Could the other black rubber one be for the drain bolt?
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jack, have you seen this? Not 100% the same as your motor, but almost.
Might help you figure out the answer on your seal question and also give you another guide.

http://gallery.vespresso.nl/Vespresso/Referentie/P200-85-Motorblok-Opbouw thankyou mr10
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V oodoo wrote:
jack, have you seen this? Not 100% the same as your motor, but almost.
Might help you figure out the answer on your seal question and also give you another guide.

http://gallery.vespresso.nl/Vespresso/Referentie/P200-85-Motorblok-Opbouw thankyou mr10
I have seen it, but forgot about it, so thanks! I'll look through it.
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Installed the cush drive tonight, no drama...
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Going to run a sealed bearing at the rear hub side of the rear axle? If so, I recommend only using the seal on the hub side and removing the seal on the gear side.
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The 4 o rings at the top of the pic are for the rear hub back plate

You have an oring in the rear brake cam too.

The other x 2 could be for autolube models?!
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SFvsr wrote:
Going to run a sealed bearing at the rear hub side of the rear axle? If so, I recommend only using the seal on the hub side and removing the seal on the gear side.
Interesting. This is what came in my bearing kit from Scooterwest. I asked them if I should still use the external seal, and they said might as well, no harm in it. Didn't mention removing a seal from the bearing.
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autojack wrote:
SFvsr wrote:
Going to run a sealed bearing at the rear hub side of the rear axle? If so, I recommend only using the seal on the hub side and removing the seal on the gear side.
Interesting. This is what came in my bearing kit from Scooterwest. I asked them if I should still use the external seal, and they said might as well, no harm in it. Didn't mention removing a seal from the bearing.
Isn't the bearing itself lubricated by the gear oil, hence the comment about pulling the seal on only the gear side of the bearing and getting double the protection in your rear brake hub? I've heard of lambretta owners pulling one seal of the drive side crank bearing.
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MJRally wrote:
Isn't the bearing itself lubricated by the gear oil, hence the comment about pulling the seal on only the gear side of the bearing and getting double the protection in your rear brake hub? I've heard of lambretta owners pulling one seal of the drive side crank bearing.
I dunno. If it *needs* to be lubricated, why is it sealed?

Could be a "fun" exercise to try and pull that inner seal off without removing the bearing.
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They aren't hard to pull out. Just use a pick and you'll get it, if you want to.
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Crank almost installed
Well, as with every other similar attempt on this project, freezing the crank and warming the bearing did NOT allow everything to just drop together with a bit of hand force. The crank only went in a few millimeters with hand pressure. So I popped the clutch on and was able to thread the clutch nut onto the crank and draw it in most of the way, but I backed the nut off when it felt like it was binding a little. When I removed the clutch I found metal bits on the crank threads.

Fortunately, upon inspection it looks like I just stripped the nut, and not completely. Of course I used the new nut for this and not the old one. It still threads on, but obviously I'll be tossing that and getting another new one.

I went to the hardware store today, and after a bit of rummaging I found a suitable iron pipe bushing and some washers that I can use as a spacer against the bearing inner race to finish the install. Also just saw a good tip elsewhere on the forum to buy a regular M12 1.25 thread pitch nut and use that instead of the clutch nut to pull it in.
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Well, I'm second-guessing myself a bit about whether the crank is actually fully installed or not.

With the clutch installed, the unthreaded part of the crank is flush with the inside lip of the clutch bore. As far as I can tell, if you pulled the crank in any further then the nut wouldn't be able to thread on enough to grip it.

On the other hand, when I look at the crank web, it seems like the lip could go in a little further to the groove in the casing. Just judging that from the last picture here: http://www.scooterhelp.com/tips/engine/crank.install.lf.vespa.html

When I look at the intake port, it seals when you turn the crank, except for at one part where there is a paper-thin gap for some reason. Here are some pictures.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
Looks like a good seal from this angle.
Looks like a good seal from this angle.
At the bottom right of the intake port you can see a slight gap.
At the bottom right of the intake port you can see a slight gap.
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Your crankshaft isn't fully installed.
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damn it!


http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+sip+assembly+output+shaft_18119000

Consider getting a shop to install the remainder of the crank and pulling in the main shaft. The tool ive linked you to does both.
The shaft can be just as difficult to get on as the crank. The clutch nut is not up to task as youve found out. Ive never had a crank just go on before, dont know where you got that idea from.(maybe the rally is easier to install bearings than the px?) The bearings can go in with a bit of heat but you honestly cant beat the correct tools if you just want it done. You can buy that tool and sell it on after youve finished or yeah, get a shop onto it. easy as then.
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I have one of these, much cheaper than the other tools and works very well.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+crankshaft+assembly+in_10052700

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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ive got one of those too, ive never used it on the px does it work ok for these bikes too?

doesnt do the mainshaft though aye?
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Ginch wrote:
I have one of these, much cheaper than the other tools and works very well.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+crankshaft+assembly+in_10052700

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Don't see how that will work on a Rally. It looks like it presses the crank through from the flywheel side or something. All the tools I've seen pull it through from the clutch side.
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Re: damn it!
TrumpyScooter wrote:


http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+sip+assembly+output+shaft_18119000

Consider getting a shop to install the remainder of the crank and pulling in the main shaft. The tool ive linked you to does both.
The shaft can be just as difficult to get on as the crank. The clutch nut is not up to task as youve found out. Ive never had a crank just go on before, dont know where you got that idea from.(maybe the rally is easier to install bearings than the px?) The bearings can go in with a bit of heat but you honestly cant beat the correct tools if you just want it done. You can buy that tool and sell it on after youve finished or yeah, get a shop onto it. easy as then.
Yeah. I opted not to spend $75 (US price with shipping) on a tool I might only use once, because I had seen and heard enough stories of people doing it with an improvised tool. SFvsr himself recommended the clutch + clutch nut method (in an old forum post anyway, maybe he no longer approves of that). I've since learned that (maybe) the smallframe cranks are less of an interference fit, so those may be installable with just freezing and hand pressure, but not really the largeframe ones. Also, if I couldn't/can't manage it, I could/can take it to someone who can. Figured it was worth a try.

I hadn't heard of using a special tool to install the axle/driveshaft. In the Scooterwest rebuild video they put a socket over the selector rod to protect that, so you're only hitting the shaft, and then they bang it on with a mallet.

SFvsr's tip from the other thread mentions putting the clutch nut washer on in order to complete the install with that method, and I didn't do that (hadn't seen that particular post before I started). After another inspection, I think what happened was that the nut reached the end of the threads. The back of it is ground up. I think that's where the metal bits came from. I'll still replace it.

Last night I discovered that you can buy a tool on eBay, from India, for $25 or so. It's a piece of crap, probably, but I only need it to work once... I wish I had just bought one of those before I started. More so, I wish I had just bought a couple of the right size drifts for installing the bearing and seals, it would have been a lot easier. But at least I got those done without much drama, just a bit of cursing.

What can I say, these are the kinds of learning experiences I expected to have. At least I haven't ruined anything yet. I've been a little surprised at how many differing and contradictory opinions there are on the "right" way to do things, even from seemingly respected sources. Even from different professional Vespa mechanics. Lots of people recommend the Scooter Techniques how-to DVD, so I bought that. He installs a crank by knocking it in with a hammer and punch! Sheesh. Scooterhelp.com, and numerous YouTube videos, show people popping bearings in, or out, with just heat, cold, and hand force.

Anyway, I'll get there. I appreciate all the advice!
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Re: damn it!
autojack wrote:
Yeah. I opted not to spend $75 (US price with shipping) on a tool I might only use once, because I had seen and heard enough stories of people doing it with an improvised tool. SFvsr himself recommended the clutch + clutch nut method (in an old forum post anyway, maybe he no longer approves of that). I've since learned that (maybe) the smallframe cranks are less of an interference fit, so those may be installable with just freezing and hand pressure, but not really the largeframe ones. Also, if I couldn't/can't manage it, I could/can take it to someone who can. Figured it was worth a try.

I hadn't heard of using a special tool to install the axle/driveshaft. In the Scooterwest rebuild video they put a socket over the selector rod to protect that, so you're only hitting the shaft, and then they bang it on with a mallet.

SFvsr's tip from the other thread mentions putting the clutch nut washer on in order to complete the install with that method, and I didn't do that (hadn't seen that particular post before I started). After another inspection, I think what happened was that the nut reached the end of the threads. The back of it is ground up. I think that's where the metal bits came from. I'll still replace it.

Last night I discovered that you can buy a tool on eBay, from India, for $25 or so. It's a piece of crap, probably, but I only need it to work once... I wish I had just bought one of those before I started. More so, I wish I had just bought a couple of the right size drifts for installing the bearing and seals, it would have been a lot easier. But at least I got those done without much drama, just a bit of cursing.

What can I say, these are the kinds of learning experiences I expected to have. At least I haven't ruined anything yet. I've been a little surprised at how many differing and contradictory opinions there are on the "right" way to do things, even from seemingly respected sources. Even from different professional Vespa mechanics. Lots of people recommend the Scooter Techniques how-to DVD, so I bought that. He installs a crank by knocking it in with a hammer and punch! Sheesh. Scooterhelp.com, and numerous YouTube videos, show people popping bearings in, or out, with just heat, cold, and hand force.

Anyway, I'll get there. I appreciate all the advice!
Well it must work if SFvsr says its successful for him. Hey, maybe hes got the knack.

I bought my tool from india, theyre not crap, theyre fine. The LML tools are ok. The sip tools are great. Good on you for shopping around. I just used the sip link for reference. If you get that tool itll do the main shaft as mentioned saving a headache there. Im sure experienced builders use all sorts of improvised devices, but ill say it again, its hard to beat using the correct tools.

That one that ginchy posted is for a 150 super. Cant remeber if its just for removal or for install as well, but its the tool for that scooter. He says it works for a rally, so there you go.

If you were tapping on the main piin of the crank i suppose youd get away without damaging the crank but there is a risk of damaging the bearing cage its seating into.
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Re: damn it!
TrumpyScooter wrote:
I bought my tool from india, theyre not crap, theyre fine. The LML tools are ok. The sip tools are great. Good on you for shopping around. I just used the sip link for reference. If you get that tool itll do the main shaft as mentioned saving a headache there. Im sure experienced builders use all sorts of improvised devices, but ill say it again, its hard to beat using the correct tools.
OK, using it on the driveshaft too convinced me. I ordered one of the Indian tools, it has good reviews. Hopefully it won't ship on the slow boat. Thanks I have a few other things I need to do that I can work on in the meantime so I'm still making progress.
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autojack wrote:
Ginch wrote:
I have one of these, much cheaper than the other tools and works very well.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+crankshaft+assembly+in_10052700

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
Don't see how that will work on a Rally. It looks like it presses the crank through from the flywheel side or something. All the tools I've seen pull it through from the clutch side.
No it's a puller. It works from the clutch side. The cutaway bit is there to clear the mainshaft gear. $30 at SIP.

[URL=http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/Khalnayak14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Pinasco%20224%20after%206000%20miles%20of%20constant%20abuse/95A7ADC2-9315-4E5A-9E56-D30CCA843571_zpszqv8wcwk.jpg.html]External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text[/URL]
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A con rod holder is not going to be necessary in this part of the rebuild right? As far as I can see, you'd have to have both case halves together for it to hold.
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autojack wrote:
A con rod holder is not going to be necessary in this part of the rebuild right? As far as I can see, you'd have to have both case halves together for it to hold.
Nah... smallframes make better use of them. No need for a largeframe. Not 100% sure about a Rally, but it should be true.
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xkrebstarx wrote:
autojack wrote:
A con rod holder is not going to be necessary in this part of the rebuild right? As far as I can see, you'd have to have both case halves together for it to hold.
Nah... smallframes make better use of them. No need for a largeframe. Not 100% sure about a Rally, but it should be true.
Yeah, looking into it... I already GOT the clutch off. Didn't need anything special. I thought I might need it to pull the crank back in.
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Ginch wrote:
I have one of these, much cheaper than the other tools and works very well.

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/tool+crankshaft+assembly+in_10052700

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
That tool is for Sprint/VBB. Models with seal on clutch side of bearing.
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xkrebstarx wrote:
autojack wrote:
A con rod holder is not going to be necessary in this part of the rebuild right? As far as I can see, you'd have to have both case halves together for it to hold.
Nah... smallframes make better use of them. No need for a largeframe. Not 100% sure about a Rally, but it should be true.
You can still use a conrod holder tool with half the case. Just go slow and pay attention and you should be fine.
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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118 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
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Ginch wrote:
[URL=http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/Khalnayak14/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Pinasco%20224%20after%206000%20miles%20of%20constant%20abuse/95A7ADC2-9315-4E5A-9E56-D30CCA843571_zpszqv8wcwk.jpg.html]External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text[/URL]
You fixed the alignment of that oil pump gear with the woodruff key, right?
@sfvsr avatar
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a lambretta or two
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Ossessionato
@sfvsr avatar
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UTC quote
When installing the bearing into the case you support the outer race. When pulling the crankshaft arm through the bearing you support the inner race. Using the Sprint/VBB tool will put all the stress on the ball bearings.

Shame this all has to be learned over the internet.
@sfvsr avatar
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a lambretta or two
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UTC quote
Re: damn it!
autojack wrote:
Last night I discovered that you can buy a tool on eBay, from India, for $25 or so. It's a piece of crap, probably, but I only need it to work long enough to ruin the good stuff I bought
Fixed it for you.
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
SFvsr wrote:
When installing the bearing into the case you support the outer race. When pulling the crankshaft arm through the bearing you support the inner race. Using the Sprint/VBB tool will put all the stress on the ball bearings.

Shame this all has to be learned over the internet.
Yeah. I guess I just could have dropped by your shop after work and learned in person...
I've used that tool every time I've needed to pull a crank in (and never had a bearing issue) but I see the problem, thanks. I'll make a sleeve to fit over the thread and rest on the inner race.
chandlerman wrote:
Ginch wrote:
You fixed the alignment of that oil pump gear with the woodruff key, right?
Ha ha! That was just a picture I grabbed from MV somewhere to illustrate to Autojack where the tool fits... didn't see the key!
OP
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Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
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UTC quote
Hey Ginch, next time I'm in Melbourne let's go for a ride
OP
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'76 Vespa Rally 200
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@autojack avatar
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UTC quote
I got an answer from Scooterwest about what o-rings are included in the gasket kit I bought:

Backplate: One large and three small
Clutch Arm: One small
Rear Brake Cam: One small
KickStart Shaft: One small
Oil Pump: One small
Last one small one? I'm not sure. Maybe the electric auto choke on a Cosa?

Hah, so even they don't know what one of them is for.
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
autojack wrote:
Hey Ginch, next time I'm in Melbourne let's go for a ride
Any time!
@chandlerman avatar
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Lucky
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9393
Location: Nashville

118 Days Since Last Explosion
 
Lucky
@chandlerman avatar
76 Sprint V, 63 GL, 62 VBB, 05 Stella, 66 Smallstate
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9393
Location: Nashville

118 Days Since Last Explosion
UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
chandlerman wrote:
You fixed the alignment of that oil pump gear with the woodruff key, right?
Ha ha! That was just a picture I grabbed from MV somewhere to illustrate to Autojack where the tool fits... didn't see the key!
I saw that and was basically fixated on it. Failing to correct stuff like that when I notice it (along with forgetting to torque the flywheel before kicking the bike over and shearing the flyside woodruff key) is the bane of my scooter wrenching existence.
@trumpyscooter avatar
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Molto Verboso
Black 2007 PX200, Dark green 1986 PX225 Pinasco, "1972"(yeah rite) Tangerine px200, several TRIUMPH TIGRESS SCOOTERS
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Molto Verboso
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UTC quote
That tool im referring to is ok sfvsr, i mean theyre not amazing engineering like a sip one, but at the end of the day it wont be getting daily use and is fit enough for the job, better than smashing the crank in anyhow . Different story if it were circlip pliers or something really fiddly youd have to manipulate. but yeah, ya cant beat top quality but each to his own i guess.
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@sfvsr avatar
a lambretta or two
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UTC quote
No need to get defensive, folks. It is just the wrong tool for the job. You can't go on about hitting stuff with a hammer and being picky about how to do this and do that and then suddenly find it okay to use the wrong tool in the wrong way to do a task.

I'm not trying to make fun of anyone or make anyone feel foolish. But the tool is for Sprint/VBB and that is that. I'm sure you can use it with a stack of washers to install a rear hub bearing. But guess what? It is the wrong tool for that job too.


You can't get all picky about one thing and then conveniently not care about another thing and then pass it off as "learning." The learning part will come later when the bearing only lasts 4,000 miles and the job must be done all over again.


And S.I.P has written the description of the tool use WRONG - It isn't for use on Rally or small frame models, because no tool is necessary to install the crankshaft into the flywheel side case. Rally and small frame models use a two-part flywheel side case bearing.

Tool crankshaft assembly in
flywheel side,
for Vespa 50-125/PV/ET3/PK/XL
/XL2/125 VNA/VNB/GT/GTR
/Super/150 VBA/VBB/GL
/Sprint/V/Super/T4
all Vespa models with ball
bearing flywheel side

As long as Vespa models possess ball bearings positioned on both sides of the crankshaft (clutch and flywheel) such as smallframe and Vespa Rally models etc. , the crankshaft should firstly be pulled into the flywheel side of the motor during assembly. This tool has an extractor centre piece with an inner thread corresponding to the thread on the flywheel side of the crankshaft, thus enabling a safer, more professional reassembly of your motor.
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