Got the engine dropped today. Head off. NOW GOOD NEWS!
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5011
Location: South Carolina
Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:06 pm quote
BubbaJon wrote:
Sorry - that's just macho bullshit.
My dad was a professional mechanic for his entire life - master mechanic/crew chief in the USAF on aircraft, taught school for Nissan, Shop manager for a Nissan dealership, raced cars - he knew his shit and he always used a torque wrench for critical areas such as tightening down cylinder heads, crank mains, etc. Of course it might be overkill to torque an exhaust manifold nut, but something like a cylinder head that has distributed forces to contain the pressure from combustion - you should heed the manuals and apply the specified torque, in the correct manner. That includes stretch bolts. Nobody - and I mean nobody - is born or develops a calibrated wrist.
It may be "macho bullshit," whatever you think that means, but it's pretty much how things are done in fast paced shops, and yes, the better techs are able to rebuild a basic scooter engine without a torque wrench. The guy who does my personal stuff has never used a torque wrench that I've seen, and his stuff goes out and stays out, which is the sign of a good technician. A guy working on aircraft for the Navy isn't doing the same job as someone putting a top end on a motorcycle for flat rate. Nobody is saying not to tighten them down correctly, and that's pretty easy for someone who's been doing it for a long time.
Molto Verboso
Vespa LX150 GTS250ie GTS300
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 1913
Location: St. Pete, Fla
Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:58 pm quote
stickyfrog wrote:
lostboater wrote:
So, Sticky, are twisting these things this weekend?
Unfortunately no. Parts won't be to me until sometime next week. But AF1 was able to source all of the special order stuff.
Oh well. Guess it will be another week of ^^^^^.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21105
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:01 pm quote
Motovista wrote:
A guy working on aircraft for the Navy isn't doing the same job as someone putting a top end on a motorcycle for flat rate. Nobody is saying not to tighten them down correctly, and that's pretty easy for someone who's been doing it for a long time.
I have to disagree with the Navy tech. they are working on a couple 100 million dollar aircraft. and things have to be perfect. All the outside panels are torqued to spec. No room for error period. If a faster came loose or broke because of being over tight and it goes down an intake they just lost an engine and quite possibly an aircraft or a life.

I agree with bubbajon no one has a calibrated wrist. I test mine when I had a detail for a month of doing nothing but torque wrench cals. I could never constantly get the same torque value every time when compared to using a torque wrench.

Some fasteners are way more critical than others. Head bolts/studs, Vari nuts and crankshaft nuts are a few examples
Moderaptor
The Hornet (GT200, aka Love Bug) and 'Dimples' - a GTS 300
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 36845
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:32 pm quote
There's also the difference between a roadside repair and a job that is warranted. If I'm paying for it I expect it to be done properly. I'll add that's it seems only in the US where the job time is the same as the 'book' time. Elsewhere the mechs get paid a salary, rather than piece-time, thank goodness (cue the 'tipping' thread').

I normally never use a torque wrench - but if in unfamiliar territory (different machine say) then I'll use one at least for the first time. Assuming one's available that is.
Molto Verboso
MP3 500
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 1290
Location: Utah
Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:00 pm quote
Sensing that a few here are in a torquey mood, here is something to help you in tight space.
http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/articles/view/2794/adjustable_torque_wrench_adapter__08-0380/

08-0380_alt4_D.jpg

Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Mon May 04, 2015 5:41 pm quote
I had hoped my replacement studs would have been here saturday as the USPS estimated but they didn't get her until today. So I spent some time tonight on the engine. Got the studs in, jug in and the head on. All nuts tightened to spec so I am past my failure point! Quit for the night. Will do the timing chain, chain tensioner and rocker arm cover tomorrow night and if I have time start putting the engine back in the bike.

Wish I wasn't flying to Maine this weekend but it is unavoidable.

IMAG1979.jpg
studs in, jug in, assembly lube applied.

IMAG1981.jpg
Head back on. Wrenched to spec using a 1/4 inch drive. Not touching any nuts again. :)

Ossessionato
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2010 Can Am Spyder RT-S, 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 4971
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Mon May 04, 2015 7:32 pm quote
Shiny!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21105
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Tue May 05, 2015 2:09 am quote
stickyfrog wrote:
I had hoped my replacement studs would have been here saturday as the USPS estimated but they didn't get her until today. So I spent some time tonight on the engine. Got the studs in, jug in and the head on. All nuts tightened to spec so I am past my failure point! Quit for the night. Will do the timing chain, chain tensioner and rocker arm cover tomorrow night and if I have time start putting the engine back in the bike.

Wish I wasn't flying to Maine this weekend but it is unavoidable.
dam sticky you got blood all over the piston.
Ossessionato
2016 MP3/500 Sport ABS, 2009 MP3/250, 2012 GTS Super 300ie
Joined: 08 Jul 2011
Posts: 4154
Location: Marietta, GA
Tue May 05, 2015 2:53 am quote
Lookin Good !
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 3:19 am quote
old as dirt wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
I had hoped my replacement studs would have been here saturday as the USPS estimated but they didn't get her until today. So I spent some time tonight on the engine. Got the studs in, jug in and the head on. All nuts tightened to spec so I am past my failure point! Quit for the night. Will do the timing chain, chain tensioner and rocker arm cover tomorrow night and if I have time start putting the engine back in the bike.

Wish I wasn't flying to Maine this weekend but it is unavoidable.
dam sticky you got blood all over the piston.
Very slippery blood.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
RIP: MP3 500 - Brutto Moto
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 5278
Location: Austin, TX
Tue May 05, 2015 4:14 am quote
You staggered the ring gaps - right?
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 4:17 am quote
Yepper 120 deg. offset.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21105
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Tue May 05, 2015 8:53 am quote
BubbaJon wrote:
You staggered the ring gaps - right?
yeah sticky does stagger occasionally.
I predict he will again at the spring gathering this year.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 12:11 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
BubbaJon wrote:
You staggered the ring gaps - right?
yeah sticky does stagger occasionally.
I predict he will again at the spring gathering this year.
I will be staggering in 3 hours.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 5:32 pm quote
OK top end is buttoned up. Spent a lot of time on the timing chain and I think I got it right. Turned the engine over a couple times and it was smooth through the intake and exhaust cycles (thanks for the tip Motovista). So next week I will hook it up and see if she fires. Updates then.

IMAG1982.jpg

IMAG1983.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
Neutrino MP3 492.7 AK, 2013 Moto Guzzi Norge
Joined: 29 Mar 2008
Posts: 21105
Location: Kingston, Tennessee, Tn
Tue May 05, 2015 5:50 pm quote
very nice

my I add a piece of advice.

do the break in how ever you want the first 50-100 miles. but dump the oil and filter at 100 miles and put new in.
Ossessionato
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2010 Can Am Spyder RT-S, 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 4971
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Tue May 05, 2015 5:58 pm quote
Is it exactly 100 miles to the Spring Gathering then?
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 6:16 pm quote
old as dirt wrote:
very nice

my I add a piece of advice.

do the break in how ever you want the first 50-100 miles. but dump the oil and filter at 100 miles and put new in.
Thanks OAD. will do.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 05, 2015 6:17 pm quote
Madison Sully wrote:
Is it exactly 100 miles to the Spring Gathering then?
quite a bit further actually. If her shit is together I may be doing an oil change in NC.
Ossessionato
MP3 500, GTS 250 (both 2008 MY), 2010 Can Am Spyder RT-S, 2012 Honda NC700 DCT
Joined: 02 Mar 2013
Posts: 4971
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Wed May 06, 2015 2:32 am quote
And hopefully that is ALL you will be doing!


Saving this thread for my own sort of luck; my date is not a good one as far as your experience goes.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4003
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Wed May 06, 2015 1:22 pm quote
Put the bottom part of the injector in some fuel it can dry out mine did


Got it working again with JPdiag tuning program and a OBD2 USBcable
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5011
Location: South Carolina
Sat May 09, 2015 8:27 am quote
stickyfrog wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Is it exactly 100 miles to the Spring Gathering then?
quite a bit further actually. If her shit is together I may be doing an oil change in NC.
Do yourself a big favor and put on a few hundred or more miles, ideally over 600, before taking off on a long distance ride. Make sure not only the work you did, but everything else is working fine before pointing it North. Taking a vehicle out of the shop after extensive work and going right on a long distance trip has left many a motorist stranded.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 12, 2015 4:17 am quote
Motovista wrote:
stickyfrog wrote:
Madison Sully wrote:
Is it exactly 100 miles to the Spring Gathering then?
quite a bit further actually. If her shit is together I may be doing an oil change in NC.
Do yourself a big favor and put on a few hundred or more miles, ideally over 600, before taking off on a long distance ride. Make sure not only the work you did, but everything else is working fine before pointing it North. Taking a vehicle out of the shop after extensive work and going right on a long distance trip has left many a motorist stranded.
Yeah it I can get finished this weekend I will have a weeks worth of commuting which will be about 230 miles. I will change oil on Wednesday. This trip I will have the truck and a built in recovery driver if I need her and mountain riding will give a nice blend of speeds for break in.
Ossessionato
Scarabeo 500GT(hers), `07 250 MP3, `09 400 MP3
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 2592
Location: Kingman, Az.
Tue May 12, 2015 9:02 am quote
Hope all goes well for you, Sticky.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Tue May 12, 2015 11:12 am quote
Thanks Brother.
Molto Verboso
2007 Piaggio MP3 250 (sold) and 2009 MP3 400
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1839
Location: Floyds Knobs IN
Tue May 12, 2015 12:24 pm quote
Good luck Sir Sticky!
Hope all goes perfectly!
Hooked
2010 MP3 250
Joined: 30 Jun 2014
Posts: 112
Location: Newberry, Fl.
Tue May 12, 2015 12:27 pm quote
Sticky ..can you see the finish line?
Looks like this one is almost in the books for ya! Self taught "Busted Nuckle Style"
I've been following your posts.
Best Of Luck to You

Last edited by Shiftless on Mon May 18, 2015 8:59 am; edited 1 time in total
Molto Verboso
Vespa LX150 GTS250ie GTS300
Joined: 11 Dec 2009
Posts: 1913
Location: St. Pete, Fla
Tue May 12, 2015 3:19 pm quote
Ok, closing in on the grand finale
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Wed May 13, 2015 6:12 am quote
Thanks folks. Fingers crossed.
Hooked
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 312

Wed May 13, 2015 7:48 am quote
Don't for get to bleed the coolant system....
...and fill the crankcase with oil.
Ossessionato
1991 T5 Pole Position, 2007 Piaggio MP3 250, 2008 LXS 125, 2013 Peugeot Metropolis RS
Joined: 06 May 2011
Posts: 3146
Location: Staffordshire UK
Wed May 13, 2015 8:05 am quote
after nearly 8 months, it'll be nice to see again what you do on your scooter rather than in your scooter Sticky

Best of luck the weekend
Hooked
MP3 - 500
Joined: 11 Jan 2009
Posts: 413
Location: Alabama, USA
Fri May 15, 2015 4:51 pm quote
Edited

Last edited by Rank Bajin on Sun May 17, 2015 2:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Sat May 16, 2015 9:12 am quote
OK engine in place. On the first try after a second or two of cranking it fired on one stroke. I shut it off and tried again. Nothing. Shut it off and waited a bit then tried again. It fired twice then nothing and the engine light came on for the first time. Here is what it is doing now.

So here is what I have connected.
The wiring harness. Double checked it a moment ago.
The fuel line.

I have not connected put coolant in yet and have not connected the exhaust system. I hear the fuel pump come on.

I have the battery on the charger at the moment and am planning on checking the spark. Anyone have any other ideas? Would no coolant or no exhaust make it not want to start?
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Granturismo 218
Joined: 04 Feb 2013
Posts: 5011
Location: South Carolina
Sat May 16, 2015 9:49 am quote
As long as it fired, it's probably good to go. More than likely, the lack of everything connected triggered all sorts of sensors.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Sat May 16, 2015 11:30 am quote
I talked to OAD and he mentioned the fuel injector which triggered my memory about something maksor said about it drying out. I just started to pull the injector and when I disconnected the fuel line there was a lot of pressure built up. I am going to pull it and see.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Sat May 16, 2015 11:34 am quote
Maksor wrote:
Put the bottom part of the injector in some fuel it can dry out mine did


Got it working again with JPdiag tuning program and a OBD2 USBcable
Can you elaborate on this when you get a chance?
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Sat May 16, 2015 12:36 pm quote
I am thinking the fuel injector is not working. I removed the bolts from the intake manifold and leaving the fuel line connected and the injector power supply (which I checked with a multimeter and it has power) connected I used the master key to turn to on. No fuel spray is coming from the injector.
Moderatus Rana
MP3 250 (sold) MP3 500 (current)
Joined: 11 Jul 2008
Posts: 21345
Location: welaka, florida
Sat May 16, 2015 1:49 pm quote
OK Maksor. Here it is soaking in petrol in one of my favorite shot glasses. How long and then what do I do?

IMAG2028.jpg

Molto Verboso
Kymco AK550
Joined: 09 Feb 2008
Posts: 1044
Location: UK
Sat May 16, 2015 11:48 pm quote
Do you have the O-2 sensor plugged in? I think you should at least connect this even if the downpipe is not fitted.
Ossessionato
Gilera Fuoco 500ie
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 4003
Location: Netherlands Zwolle
Sun May 17, 2015 6:09 am quote
O2 doesn't matter it only reads a faulse reading with out it

Sticky when it sprays fuel again then its long enough :+
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