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Hi All , Im looking for some advice on how to sort out an issue with what I thought was a hard seized engine.

I was riding slowly in a quiet back street when the engine starting making some noises that were definitely not normal operating noises. Unfortunately I did not get my hand on the clutch before the engine stopped. Tried to restart but the kick starter was seized solid. Luckily not too far from so dropped it into neutral and pushed and coasted home.

After bit of reading in this forum I worked out it was probably a hard seize in the top end of the motor, with the clutch lever depressed the kick start lever would operate, flywheel would turn.

I live in Jakarta were getting access to a workshop that you can rely on to do the job 100 % is tricky. Indonesians are very practical when it comes to fixing things and they seem to be able to fix any thing with a length of wire and a rubber band. But that's also sometimes the problem too. Things that get a great temporary fix never get a permanent fix, then break again.

I have done a far bit with this scooter since I got it but have not gone too far into the engine.

I have been living in Indonesia for 2 years so I know what you can expect when you buy an old Vespa here. I knew what I was getting myself into. The Vespa is a PX 200 X Arcobaleno, 86. This was not a top dollar fully restored Vespa more an OK runner. Quite unusually I got the full ownership history on this Vespa in the ownership record book, I'm only the fourth owner and the previous owner did a superficial make over to make the Vespa look like a 98 PX 200, ( all of which I have undone ) The last owner kept the bike as a show piece in the front office of their business. I think it is basically a sound bike that is pretty much original. But the maintenance to the bike had been a little patchy .

Mods I have done that effect the engine; new exhaust ( SIP road 2.0), new stock carburetor with upsized jets ( as per SIPS recommendations ), fast flow fuel tap . All replaced because the items fitted were worn out.

So I decided to have a look at the top end myself. I removed the cylinder head and the cylinder. As soon as I removed the cylinder head the piston started to move freely. On removing the cylinder and inspecting the piston and cylinder bore I did not see any scoring or marks on either. The head of the piston seems to me have a lot of carbon for a piston that was only changed 250 KM's ago.

Example of how the local mechanics do things. One of the four cylinder head nuts was in fact an over size nut held in place with a spacer nut ( no, not the one on the inside top which is meant to have a spacer) . The spacer nut was seized on to the shaft bold which was not straight. I doubt a torque wrench was used to tighten any of the four bolts up at all.

So here are a few questions I have after stripping the cylinder down;

1. Is this a lot of carbon for a piston with only 250 KMS. Most likely causes ? ( plug looks Ok )

2. Apart from the gouge marks were someone has hacked into the cylinder head, does this head look like the right one for the cylinder. I don't know why but it doesn't seem right to me. Should I replace it ?

3. The piston head seems to have quite a lot of play ( wobble ) on the top of the crank shaft , should it be tight with no play or not. Same with the crank shaft on the fly wheel. How much play should there be ?

4. As a source of the heat seize , I'm wondering if the autolube pump is operating properly when the throttle is pulled. You can see there has been some sought of mod to the shaft ( see pic ) the arm will go through full range of movement but it gets bit sticky about mid range. The return spring seems OK ?

5. What is the purpose of the small screw under the air box ? ( see pic )

As long as I can get the autolube working and depending answers to the above, I'm thinking I will just clean everything up and put the cylinder and head back together ( new set of gaskets an studs ) required.

Appreciate anyone's thoughts and advice.
top of cylinder
top of cylinder
cylinder surface
cylinder surface
inside cylinder heead
inside cylinder heead
piston face
piston face
side of piston
side of piston
top of autolube
top of autolube
position were lever gets sticky
position were lever gets sticky
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Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
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Molto Verboso
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Sounds like a different issue. Looks like you're going to have to crack open cases. You might have something floating around in the cases that caused lockup. When you put in neutral it freed up.
Carbon build up on low mikes? Crummy mineral oil will do it. Good synthetic usually get next to zero build up.
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looks fine enough. Head is odd in that it's a USA head, which never came on that bike, and as far as I'm aware whenever they say that they are the low-compression version made for the US emissions attempts. Condition looks ok, but you might get a little more out of it with a non-US head

What kind of play are we taking about in the piston and rod? The rod will wiggle side to side, and the piston will have a little play too on the rod.

Agreed, doesn't seem like your top end was the culprit, even though you did good tests to pin it down. Could maybe be something dodgy in the clutch area, where a failed autolube gear or something was causing the top end rotation to jam. I'd check there before splitting the cases
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The USA marking on the head was what got me suspicious about the head too. It seems out of place for this vespa, given where Iam . I don't like the general condition of it anyway. So will replace it. Will just go back to stock for the moment.

A question about gaskets.

There was no head gasket of any decription. The base gasket was a metal film gasket sandwhiched between to paper ones .

what set up is recommended for both top and bottom gaskets.

Regards play on the piston and the crank shaft. There's NOT a lot of play but its not 100 % tight . My concern was that it should be pretty much wobble free. Seems that a little wobble is OK ?

Yep no more mineral oil.

whats best way to safely de -scale the piston head ?

Once I have the Cylinder and head back on Im going to just quitley ride it over to a new service shop I have spotted, and ask them to split the case open.
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Jimmy C wrote:
A question about gaskets.
There should be no gasket between head and cylinder, and just a metal gasket between cylinder and casings.

That being said, I currently have high temp sealant in both places as well. No amount of lapping has ever stopped small leaks on this machine there, and my local shop came to the same conclusion as me: scr$w it. Maybe my iron is poorly machined, I dunno - take it for what it's worth, but I don't see the harm if you think you need it
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I guess your clutch exploded!

Whats up with your cases?
They look like one side is vespa, the other is donkey!

Love the lightweight flywheel, perfiklee balinsed

I am also goin to guess tour motor is a LOT bodgier than you suspect!
Cases no matchee!?
Cases no matchee!?
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Love the lightweight flywheel, perfiklee balinsed


I was fixated on the carbon thing. There's some wild stuff there
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well I like a challenge. And it does not get much more challenging than trying to something built right here !!. Like I said in a previous post mechanics here in Indonesia are great improvisers. For small things thats Ok. for inside motor.... not so much.

As I gaze in my crystal ball i can see myself pulling the motor down all the way and re build it , if I want be 100 % confident.

Have not opened the clutch yet. Although I did upgrade the clutch to a COSA . It will have to be Saturday job to open it up and see what it looks like. Need to do it to look at other end of the autolube system anyway.

Yes the fly wheel is a real cracker eh. They knock bits out so they can make timing marks , im guessing based on the specific ones they chopped off.

Yep saw the mismatch in case too, forgot to ask about that . Strangely they seem to have a set of mathcing numbers stamped on each side ??

The engine serial number is the orignal number at the time of registration in 86, so at least the flywheel side is the orginal !!
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Hm, cosa clutch upgrade - I'm even more confident you should start by pulling your clutch cover
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Molto Verboso
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yeah - Cosa clutch upgrade I would be a little suspect of that causing the issue you had. Get that thing cracked open !
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I was fixated on the carbon thing. There's some wild stuff there[/quote]

Yep it's a lot of carbon for short distance. I have been running mineral oil . That's gotta stop. But the other thing is that the quality of fuel here is well .... Not well refined I think. Judging by the amount of pollution. Will just have to rely on changing the oil , nought I can do about the gasoline. I'm going to de coke the piston this weekend I'll post some pics of the results
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Consider a hotter plug to burn the crap quicker
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xantufrog wrote:
Hm, cosa clutch upgrade - I'm even more confident you should start by pulling your clutch cover
I was not being accurate about the clutch it's not actually a Cosa clutch but I understood it's based on the design. Bought it from SIP .

Rally/P200E/PX200 E/Lusso
->`94/Cosa 1 200
Ø 115 mm, 23 teeth, 4 plates,
cork,
reinforced

Was that a good idea ??
The old one was very grabby in neutral
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Consider a hotter plug to burn the crap quicker
I'm running a NGK #8 plug . It looks fine, dry and a light brown colour
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Jimmy C wrote:
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Consider a hotter plug to burn the crap quicker
I'm running a NGK #8 plug . It looks fine, dry and a light brown colour
i run 9 or 10... ie very very cold.. possibly you could try a 7, as it will heat up quicker
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Jimmy C wrote:
xantufrog wrote:
Hm, cosa clutch upgrade - I'm even more confident you should start by pulling your clutch cover
I was not being accurate about the clutch it's not actually a Cosa clutch but I understood it's based on the design. Bought it from SIP .

Rally/P200E/PX200 E/Lusso
->`94/Cosa 1 200
Ø 115 mm, 23 teeth, 4 plates,
cork,
reinforced

Was that a good idea ??
The old one was very grabby in neutral
It's the old type 7 spring clutch.
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Well the clutch is off and unless I'm missing something there is nothing out of order with the clutch itself. Very possible I'm missing something though Happy to hear others thoughts on this.

The other thing I wanted to look at was the autolube drive. There has clearly been quite a bit of fiddling around going on there, but when I turn the fly wheel the mechanism seems to function properly.

I noticed that there is a threaded opening in the housing which contains one of the cylinder studs. The stud is not screwed all the way in, if it was it would catch the autolube cog. As long as the thread does not protrude is this OK , normal ? Some one was saying half my crank case is " donkey" . Hmm tend to agree. I think I know which part of a donkey too.

I took the piston off the conrod in order to clean it . I mistakenly thought the piston had been replaced with a new one, It seems they all they did was replace it with a slightly less worn one. After cleaning off some of the carbon, there are what appear to score marks on the piston face. I'm going to soak the piston in carb cleaner for 24 hours. Is it worth doing that or should I just buy a new piston and rings.

The piston rings look way to loose to me. When you hold the ring hard against the piston on one side there is a gap between the edge of the piston and the inside edge of the ring. Is this OK ?

I note that in the two piston ring grooves there is a catch that looks as though it is designed to keep the ring gaps from aligning. But these rings are so loose that the ring will easily slide over that catch. Is this a concern or does this design all work as intended once the rings and Piston are actually in the cylinder ?
clutch
clutch
autolube
autolube
autolube
autolube
piston head. Gap on rings
piston head. Gap on rings
scoring on piston head
scoring on piston head
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Fit the rings into the bore one at a time, use the piston to push them down. Then measure the gap between the ends. That test will tell you the most about how well the rings fit.
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ginch is referring to this technique

http://www.dansmc.com/pistons.htm

this guys site is invaluable for sensible pictures on how to do stuff

The piston ring stops work fine once the rings are compressed in the bore. The only issue with these is that they can become loose. If theyre tight in there (dont go pulling on them with pliers, just make sure they dont come out with a pinch)

Yup, if you screw that case stud right in it does ruin the autolube. It doesnt need it, just make it the same height as the others and youll be sweet. If you think it turns when you put a nut on the end, loctite it to the case. easy.

Clutch looks fine. Leave that for now
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Nice site Trumpy.
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Thanks for the advice folks. Gapping in rings is 0.25 mm on one and 0.45mm on the other. I read elsewhere that minimum is 0.2mm. Is there a maximum gap ?

New studs and a head to be fitted this weekend plus all new washers and nuts.

I'm going to split the casings and have a poke around inside. May as well acquaint my self with the guts of the motor a little better. I'll look at the cruciform and kick start gear while I'm there. Anything else easy worth looking at while I in there.

Going back to original reason for splitting the casings what should I be looking for loose bits of metal ? Particular wear marks etc ??

Piston head has taken a long bath in some solvent cleaner . Well the carbon is gone but it revels it is a rather shabby piston. There is a small burr about 2-3 mm long on the edge of the circumference. It does not catch on my finger but don't know if it's a showstopper for this piston? Sorry no pic of it tonight.
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Molto Verboso
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while you have open might as well replace cruciform. Make sure its original Piaggio or BGM. Anything else you are gambling.
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Not sure where to start on assessing this pic?

Heat damage to th shaft.
Mysterious grinding marks
Possibility that mount at lower/smaller end of shaft is cracked
Poss teeth chipped
End of shaft in main gear has been hammered within a hair of its life.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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SubEtherBASS wrote:
Not sure where to start on assessing this pic?

Heat damage to th shaft.
Mysterious grinding marks
Possibility that mount at lower/smaller end of shaft is cracked
Poss teeth chipped
End of shaft in main gear has been hammered within a hair of its life.
It's a mess isn't it... What's concerning me most is the state of the casing and the bottom end of the auto lube drive gear mount. If that was to give way , major malfunction like a spanner in the works. I guess this means a new set of casings.

Teeth on the circular gear are ok on closer inspection.
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Molto Verboso
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Great photos mate,

but if you scribble all over the parts its hard to see. just put an arrow for the more obscure stuff, most people know what the obvious is...ie what is supposed to look normal at front view.

God knows why that grinding is there, but it does look like your case has been welded and machined at the bearing area, possibly it was all part of the initial repair. This is a bit of if it aint broke dont fix it job to me tbh. If it works just run with it.

Yeah split the cases, wipe out the gunge at the bottom areas, looking for what metal mostly accumulates where. Pressure wash the cases, force dry them without running the bearings dry...lube bearings (before dry) first with WD-40 if you want.

New cruciform, new gaskets, seals, brake shoes, kick gear cog, kick rubbers, new carb box petrol hose rubber...just anything thats a pain in the ass to fit.
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TrumpyScooter wrote:
Great photos mate,

but if you scribble all over the parts its hard to see. just put an arrow for the more obscure stuff, most people know what the obvious is...ie what is supposed to look normal at front view.

God knows why that grinding is there, but it does look like your case has been welded and machined at the bearing area, possibly it was all part of the initial repair. This is a bit of if it aint broke dont fix it job to me tbh. If it works just run with it.

Yeah split the cases, wipe out the gunge at the bottom areas, looking for what metal mostly accumulates where. Pressure wash the cases, force dry them without running the bearings dry...lube bearings (before dry) first with WD-40 if you want.

New cruciform, new gaskets, seals, brake shoes, kick gear cog, kick rubbers, new carb box petrol hose rubber...just anything thats a pain in the ass to fit.
This Photo is mine the handy work with digital pen is courtesy of Sub Ether Bass. I like the use of different colours for clarity

Agree with if aint broke dont fix.

The cases are coming apart this weekend . I'm flying solo on that as dont have any bros with with Shifty Vespa's for me to get help from in Jakarta.

Some welding was done for a crack but I dont think it was inside the case at those points ? Hmmm

Thanks for tips on these parts
Cruciform,
gaskets, seals,
kick gear cog,
kick rubbers,

As these are not specifc to 200 CC PX should be easy enough to get in Jakarta on Sat Morning.

Anything that is 200 CC specific can be tricky to find.

Already done

brake shoes
new carb box
petrol hose rubber
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Split the cases and found that the right hand crankshaft bearing was toast. Metal fragments all over the shop plus the needle bearings just fell out all over the place.

I guess this has occurred due an issue with the alignment and balance of the crank shaft?? I guess the crappy flywheel fan with bits knocked out of it is not helping either.

Apart from replacing the bearing what else should I be looking at with the crank shaft unit?

The gear change cross looks worn and not the right one either. Can someone confirm On that?
The internal surfaces of the gears themselves look fine.

Can someone also tell me if the teeth on the kick start gear are worn out? Kickstart was slipping a lot.
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Gear change cross
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Kick start gear
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Crank shaft
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More crank shaft
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Close up of what remains of the bearing
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PX200E
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Location: Jakarta , Indonesia
 
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Axle . Plus shot of Bottom of the crank case
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@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
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Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Jimmy it might be worth putting a new bottom end bearing on that crank, if you can get hold of a decent quality one. I have a mate near Denpasar, he said it costs about 5-10 dollars to have a crank pressed apart and back together. It's going to be pretty hard to clean it out otherwise.

How does the rotary pad look?
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
Jimmy it might be worth putting a new bottom end bearing on that crank, if you can get hold of a decent quality one. I have a mate near Denpasar, he said it costs about 5-10 dollars to have a crank pressed apart and back together. It's going to be pretty hard to clean it out otherwise.

How does the rotary pad look?
I'll check the rotary pad out and post a pic. I'm tipping it might be worse for wear. The section of the crank shaft that passes over the pad had some very fine scratches and some bluing due to heat damage. But the whole set up does not seem to leak. Oil anyway. Months ago when I was sorting out the carby. I poured oil in the carb inlet on the crank case and let it sit. It took longer than five minutes to drain away. I'm told this is about right.
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
Jimmy it might be worth putting a new bottom end bearing on that crank, if you can get hold of a decent quality one. I have a mate near Denpasar, he said it costs about 5-10 dollars to have a crank pressed apart and back together. It's going to be pretty hard to clean it out otherwise.

How does the rotary pad look?
Sorry Ginch one more. Does your friend in Denpasar know someone in Jakarta I could take the crank to. Finding a shop with a press etc is hard to do. Most shops can do it but it will all be done squatting on the floor bashed out with a hammer and a drift. I can do that myself and achieve the same less than satisfactory result.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
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@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Jimmy C wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Jimmy it might be worth putting a new bottom end bearing on that crank, if you can get hold of a decent quality one. I have a mate near Denpasar, he said it costs about 5-10 dollars to have a crank pressed apart and back together. It's going to be pretty hard to clean it out otherwise.

How does the rotary pad look?
Sorry Ginch one more. Does your friend in Denpasar know someone in Jakarta I could take the crank to. Finding a shop with a press etc is hard to do. Most shops can do it but it will all be done squatting on the floor bashed out with a hammer and a drift. I can do that myself and achieve the same less than satisfactory result.
He's only been there for a year or so and hasn't moved around much so I suspect not. He didn't say anything about the method involved but I imagine it's pretty much the same... perhaps look around for a small engineering workshop rather than a scooter mechanic?
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Rotary pad looks ok . However I don't have the crank shaft out yet. I'll tap that out this week and take a closer look at the pad . I'm leaning towards a new crank shaft at the moment . If I cannot find someone to recondition mine
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Jimmy C wrote:
Rotary pad looks ok . However I don't have the crank shaft out yet. I'll tap that out this week and take a closer look at the pad . I'm leaning towards a new crank shaft at the moment . If I cannot find someone to recondition mine
Fair enough. If you're getting a new one, make sure it's new and not "new". Razz emoticon
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UTC quote
Ginch wrote:
Jimmy C wrote:
Rotary pad looks ok . However I don't have the crank shaft out yet. I'll tap that out this week and take a closer look at the pad . I'm leaning towards a new crank shaft at the moment . If I cannot find someone to recondition mine
Fair enough. If you're getting a new one, make sure it's new and not "new". Razz emoticon
Yep know what you mean about new. I don't want to swap one set of trouble for someone else's old problem crank.
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