Why are New Vespas so easy to steal?
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GTS 300
Joined: 06 Dec 2015
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Location: London
Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:45 pm quote
Hi I'm new here, but been riding a Vespa for 8 years. In the summer my precious GTV250 was stolen. I was staying with friends, and someone took a shine and it was gone.

I assumed it got lifted into a truck - I was upset the insurance was a pittance and thought I would wait to replace it.

So 6 months later, I finally bought a new GTS300, but this time I installed a tracker. 3 days later, stolen! The tracker didn't give a motion alert - but the police were able to recover it 12 hours later with broken lock and missing ECU.

SO THIS IS WHERE I GET ANNOYED AT VESPA... AND THE TRACKER COMPANY.

It turns out everyone knows (apart from me) that you you can easily pick up an ecu with keys on eBay - AND, the ecu on a Vespa is just below the seat, so it's like a 2 minute job to smash the lock, open the seat, remove the ecu and then put your new one in... What the heck? Vespa, why isn't the ecu in a place far more awkward to tamper with? Why is it so easy to just buy one on eBay and replace it? This just makes me sick! Why, why, why?

I also find the tracker company disappointing In this respect too - how can you modify an electrical component In a bike and not have some tamper detection mechanism? That's also pretty bogus.

Of course, I need to educate my wife to put a lock through the wheels, but Vespa hasn't made this easy either as the new disk breaks leave very little space to put a chain through a shell, and even a dlock is a very tight fit.

This whole experience has left me feeling very flat about the bike my wife and I love.

I think Vespa,should step up far more on this.
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Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:24 pm quote
We recently had a discussion on this here.

You should always use a lock on your bike, especially in London. The GTS 250 actually has a more difficult to access immobiliser. The position of the one on the GTS 300 shows typical Italian engineering talent! It's not worth putting a chain through the front wheel as the front wheel is easy to remove and the bike can still be carried away. A disk lock is an absolute minimum but if you live in a high theft area, and it sounds like you do, then an anti pinch pin through the back wheel attached to an imoveable object with a good chain might be your best choice.

Vespas are nice scooters but they're becoming unviable in a big city like London simply because of the theft problem. Let's hope that Piaggio are looking into fixing the issue rather than debating what colour to make next year's model.
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Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:59 pm quote
I was under the impression they figured a way to bypass the immobilizer with the ignition switch. So what your saying is they are coming with a complete ecu. Changing the ecu on the spot and riding away.

John
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GTS 300
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Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:19 pm quote
I am quite sick about this - I think this situation with the gts (their current top model) should be more common knowledge.

I'm certainly going to write to Piaggot and make a complaint.

It does look like mine was stolen in minutes - and the worse bit is, because you can do this without moving the bike, the trackers are of limited use - with a replaced ecu they now register a legitimate start operation and happily let a thief ride away.

Sickening.
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Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:10 pm quote
I;m thinking 3 or 4 hundred bucks to be able to steal a GTS. fI they are changing the ecu to drive it away, I would look into a better way of keeping them out of the seat. I suspect they figured out a way to bypass the immobilizer and don't think they are changing the ecu to get it started. Change the hardware to tamper proof screws holding the intake and air duct. But I'm not there to see what they do.

John
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Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:44 pm quote
They *are* changing the ECU. That's the whole point we've been bleating about for the last year or so with all the thefts in London. They change the ECU for one they've had put back to virgin and then coded to their own RFID (even AF1 Racing can do this for YOU) - I suspect they use a separate antenna/decoder with an RFID taped into it. Apparently it only takes two minutes for the lock break and ECU swap before they ride away.

B'stards. And stupid, stupid Piaggio. A separate immobiliser (that also one-time coded the ECU) under the floorboards would have eliminated this style of theft.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:28 am quote
Hi guys do they actually do this
Quote:
They *are* changing the ECU. That's the whole point we've been bleating about for the last year or so with all the thefts in London.
both bikes my mate had stolen were just lifted into vans

http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/advice/biking-tips/motorbike-security/#.VmVCRlXhCVM

george
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:58 am quote
jimc wrote:
They *are* changing the ECU. That's the whole point we've been bleating about for the last year or so with all the thefts in London. They change the ECU for one they've had put back to virgin and then coded to their own RFID (even AF1 Racing can do this for YOU) - I suspect they use a separate antenna/decoder with an RFID taped into it. Apparently it only takes two minutes for the lock break and ECU swap before they ride away.

B'stards. And stupid, stupid Piaggio. A separate immobiliser (that also one-time coded the ECU) under the floorboards would have eliminated this style of theft.
It's basically the same security that was on the GT200, a dozen or so years back. Thieves have adapted and Vespas haven't.

All the more reason for them to pull their finger out and introduce a proper replacement for the GTS that is more than just a new paint colour.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:32 am quote
Bloody hell, are primaveras just as easy to nick?
Molto Verboso
GTS 300 Super ABS/ASR
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:55 am quote
Getting a chain through the back wheel is not easy space wise. How does everybody lock theirs up when at work in town/city?
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:20 am quote
Budz wrote:
Getting a chain through the back wheel is not easy space wise. How does everybody lock theirs up when at work in town/city?
Did you look at the anti pinch pin link I gave? They're not expensive, go through the back wheel and allow you to use a shorter length of decent sized chain to lock your scooter to an immovable object. There's no point putting a lock through the front wheel as the front wheel can be easily removed. I personally just use a disk lock on the front but then I have a pretty beat up GTS 250.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:52 am quote
Macta wrote:
I'm certainly going to write to Piaggio and make a complaint.
Good luck with that they're not known for being responsive to complaints. If you get any joy, do let us know.

Personally, having had my own GTS stolen a few months back, and knowing of at least a dozen people who have also had theirs stolen in London, I won't touch the marque with a bargepole until/unless they improve their security. You're absolutely right - it's much, much too easy to steal their scooters (the BV350 is even more popular amongst toerags; there is one poor chap on this site who had two stolen within a 6-week period), but so far Piaggio are either not aware of this, or not particularly bothered by it.

Last edited by genie on Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Gobshite Shiva
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:54 am quote
smu wrote:
Bloody hell, are primaveras just as easy to nick?
Unless the ECU is buried somewhere sensible in the bodywork, I expect they are.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:14 am quote
Seems to be very bad over the pond for Scoots. Pretty much where I live you could leave your keys in and it would still be there. Now I have a garage, so at home it's always put away. In my youth I had my BSA stolen for parts too. Sad, there always someone around to steal your stuff and when it's a popular one all the worse.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:25 am quote
As long as a scooter can be lifted up and carried away, immobilizers are worthless. I guess Piaggio could add 500 lbs to the weight of their scooters.

For home use, someone should design a ground mounting front wheel chock with steel side flaps that prevent access to wheel removal and uses a large diameter locking solid pin through the flaps and wheel for security. Pull the scooter into the chock, lift the side flaps, insert and lock the pin. Make it so you don't even need to put it up on the center stand.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:32 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
As long as a scooter can be lifted up and carried away, immobilizers are worthless.
I disagree. While physically removing the scooter will be an option, it seems like the bulk of London thefts are by kids on foot who can walk up and ride away in minutes. If they *had* to use a van and a couple of people to move them there would be a lot less theft.
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:52 am quote
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
Aviator47 wrote:
As long as a scooter can be lifted up and carried away, immobilizers are worthless.
I disagree. While physically removing the scooter will be an option, it seems like the bulk of London thefts are by kids on foot who can walk up and ride away in minutes. If they *had* to use a van and a couple of people to move them there would be a lot less theft.
Then a heavy chain and lock should suffice, correct?

I wonder, of the folks here who have suffered theft, how many were stolen from their residence?
Hooked
Vespa 200L
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:31 am quote
We need one of these.
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
Joined: 30 Mar 2014
Posts: 1545
Location: Minneapolis USA
Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:51 am quote
Vespa Theft
Many regrets for the high theft problem. I feel your pain
and would be furious if mine was nicked.

There are some product improvements that could frustrate
would be thieves. You obviously must be making the necessary
security adjustments.

STORY: When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

I lived in Naples Italy for 4 years. I rode a Ducati 350 Scrambler.
Southern Italy had a high level of poverty and property theft
was rampant. I could not let the Ducati out of my sight.
Additionally, I had to be with in running distance of where I
parked to beat the thieves rolling it away. This happened once
in Salerno. So, there was no crime of person (you would never
be mugged or physically assaulted) but, theft of property was off
the chart.

So, In London.....

Bob Copeland
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:10 pm quote
Sturdy U-locks through both wheels separately keep random "steal & ride" guys away and are easy to use (at least with Sprint's wheels, don't have experience on other Vespas) don't help with professionals having a van, though.

Due to the lack of space to carry the U-locks around, away from home I use the heaviest covered chain locks (E.g. Abus) that I can get through the wheels. Combined with a lamp post or equivalent, I'm at least trying to raise the challenge. I don't have the nerve to leave the scoot un-chained, unless I'm sitting in a cafe next to it (Bob's method).
Ossessionato
GTS 300 70th Anniversary
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:14 pm quote
You don't need to make your scooter impossible to steal, just harder to steal than the ones parked nearby.
Molto Verboso
2013 Vespa 300 Super, 2007 Burgman 400
Joined: 30 Mar 2014
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Location: Minneapolis USA
Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:26 pm quote
Italian Code for Thieves
As related by my Italian Landlord, "if you leave your property
out unprotected, you deserve to have it stolen". This obviously
sounds a bit convoluted - but relieves the thief of moral
responsibility. He is actually a educator not a criminal.

Obviously, this is hog wash. I was called a "Stupido" by my
Italian girl friend for wearing my wallet in my back pocket.
She made me place it in the front pants pocket to avoid the
picket pockets in Naples. She confirmed my landlord's
words, "you deserve to have it stolen if you leave it in your
rear pocket like a Stupido".

Bob Copeland
Minnesota
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Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:27 pm quote
Re: Italian Code for Thieves
Bob Copeland wrote:
I was called a "Stupido" by my
Italian girl friend for wearing my wallet in my back pocket.
She made me place it in the front pants pocket to avoid the
picket pockets in Naples. She confirmed my landlord's
words, "you deserve to have it stolen if you leave it in your
rear pocket like a Stupido".
Same deal for New York: hasn't happened to me in the decades I've lived there, but I've kept my wallet elsewhere the last fifteen years anyway.
Dr Zoidberg wrote:
You don't need to make your scooter impossible to steal, just harder to steal than the ones parked nearby.
That's my approach. Even though I now live in a relatively low-crime area (and even NYC isn't nearly as bad as London sounds right now), the slightly-paranoid New Yorker in me tingles a bit every time I leave Melody in a mall parking lot - I'm waiting rather impatiently for my Grip-Lock to arrive before I go leaving the thing parked on the street anywhere. Also thinking about an alarm and/or BT tracking dongle, as well as a chain for the driveway, but right now I'll be happy with the Grip-Lock. It should help with my insurance as well.

Update: Grip-Lock arrived this evening. Feeling a bit better already.

20151208_000032.jpg
An ounce of prevention. (Okay, about 12 ounces, but you get it.)

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Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:29 pm quote
I used to use a large diameter plastic coated aircraft grade cable with loops and a big lock. I put the cable through the rear wheel and over the seat (easily seen). They can still carry it off, just makes it harder. I also have thought of building a manual alarm that has a hidden on/off switch, and a contact switch on the kickstand. It would go off if you took the bike off the kick stand if energized. Of course then they would probably drop the bike and fun- inflicting damage.
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:19 am quote
Budz wrote:
Getting a chain through the back wheel is not easy space wise. How does everybody lock theirs up when at work in town/city?
Picture shows Almax 16mm link chain on Gts250 rear wheel. Admittedly it would be easier with an anti pinch bolt. Certainly not impossible.
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125/150
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:08 am quote
Hi guys would a ground anchor not be a good idea

http://www.barriersdirect.co.uk/bike-stands-shelters-c1017/bike-parking-c1018/motor-cycle-ground-anchor-p5805?shopping&gclid=CPvV17GpzMkCFQaK2wod7oML0Q

a friend in london has a baby alarm,he does find it a little irritating as it picks up all the sounds but they are cheap to buy, i don't think any immobiliser or lock will prevent theft but i dont think many casual thieves carry grinders or bolt cutters
george
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:29 am quote
Re: Italian Code for Thieves
amateriat wrote:
I'm waiting rather impatiently for my Grip-Lock to arrive before I go leaving the thing parked on the street anywhere. Also thinking about an alarm and/or BT tracking dongle, as well as a chain for the driveway, but right now I'll be happy with the Grip-Lock. It should help with my insurance as well.

Update: Grip-Lock arrived this evening. Feeling a bit better already.
I was going to order a Grip lock until I read this review on amazon
Quote:
I bought one of these (i.e. Grip lock) for my Vespa. When it arrived it seemed very flimsy, made of what feels like fragile plastic and with a lightweight locking mechanism. However, I thought it would be a good, visible deterrent supporting another deterrent - a chain on the rear wheel locked to a wall anchor. Less than six weeks later, the grip lock had been removed overnight.
The bike wasn't damaged or stolen as it was locked to the wall, but for the price I paid, I believe there are better deterrents, such as another hefty chain or a disc lock alarm. I'm not sure if the grip lock saved the bike being nicked or some scallywag thought he/she would show me how useless it was by taking it off. Don't use it on its own as clearly it can be removed without a trace of damage to the handle grips, but perhaps you may want to use it as a package of deterrents or perhaps it's ok to use if you are nipping into a shop and won't be more than a few minutes, but I won't spend another 45 on a new one as they clearly can be removed easily. I will stick to old fashioned chains and alarms. It would be interesting to see if anyone has removed one themselves and timed how long it takes.
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:49 am quote
george1966 wrote:
but i dont think many casual thieves carry grinders or bolt cutters
They certainly do carry bolt cutters, at least down here in London. Battery powered grinders are available but they make a lot of noise so I don't think they're used as much.

The ground anchor is fine but you can only use it at home. Also remember many folks rent in London so fitting a ground anchor wouldn't be allowed. It also requires a decent chain to be of any use. Then you need some method of fixing the chain to the scooter - Vespa design their wheels to stop you using decent chains. Obviously all this won't do much if you just lock the front wheel to the anchor as the front wheel comes off in seconds. I'd need to be a contortionist to fit a lock to the back wheel (perhaps a sign that I'm getting old) and there's also the risk of burning yourself on the hot exhaust.
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:06 am quote
Quote:
george1966 wrote:
but i dont think many casual thieves carry grinders or bolt cutters
They certainly do carry bolt cutters, at least down here in London. Battery powered grinders are available but they make a lot of noise so I don't think they're used as much.
Hi mate I,m afraid if its that bad with thieves its probably just not a good idea to own a vespa,i personally couldn't stand the aggravation
norfolk's pretty safe for cars bikes, i have a locked alarmed garage but still think its not totally secure ,we don't have much of a transport system but from memory london's is very good,one chap on here was using the bus to avoid the hassle,

i don't think piaggio will upgrade its bike security they will just expect people to buy additional security dependant on risk ,blanket upgrades will just increase the costs for them ,a stolen bikes costs them nothing ,actually probably benefiting from another sale
george
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Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:00 pm quote
Re: Italian Code for Thieves
smu wrote:
amateriat wrote:
I'm waiting rather impatiently for my Grip-Lock to arrive before I go leaving the thing parked on the street anywhere. Also thinking about an alarm and/or BT tracking dongle, as well as a chain for the driveway, but right now I'll be happy with the Grip-Lock. It should help with my insurance as well.

Update: Grip-Lock arrived this evening. Feeling a bit better already.
I was going to order a Grip lock until I read this review on amazon
Quote:
I bought one of these (i.e. Grip lock) for my Vespa. When it arrived it seemed very flimsy, made of what feels like fragile plastic and with a lightweight locking mechanism. However, I thought it would be a good, visible deterrent supporting another deterrent - a chain on the rear wheel locked to a wall anchor. Less than six weeks later, the grip lock had been removed overnight.
The bike wasn't damaged or stolen as it was locked to the wall, but for the price I paid, I believe there are better deterrents, such as another hefty chain or a disc lock alarm. I'm not sure if the grip lock saved the bike being nicked or some scallywag thought he/she would show me how useless it was by taking it off. Don't use it on its own as clearly it can be removed without a trace of damage to the handle grips, but perhaps you may want to use it as a package of deterrents or perhaps it's ok to use if you are nipping into a shop and won't be more than a few minutes, but I won't spend another 45 on a new one as they clearly can be removed easily. I will stick to old fashioned chains and alarms. It would be interesting to see if anyone has removed one themselves and timed how long it takes.
One thing I've learned from roughly 40 years of cycling in Gotham: for every security method I wound up choosing, there was someone who used the same method and had their wheels snatched up anyway. I did take interest in this reviewer's description of the Grip-Lock as being "flimsy." That's hardly my impression of the lock at all - for its size and weight, it seems quite substantial in build quality, and once I set it up and put it in place, it has quite a tenacious hold. (I have read some negative reviews of some of the Grip-Lock "copycats" on Amazon and elsewhere.)

Of course, as I've long said, there's no "bulletproof" method of security, short of an armed guard (who's hopefully had enough sleep), to keep someone from nabbing your bike, given the time and tools. We can't control the latter, but we do have some control over the former. Make your wheels just that much more of a job to make off with and many, if not most wannabe GTA candidates will look elsewhere. You have to do the best you can.
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Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:25 am quote
I realize that theft is not a concern where I live, but try a little logic:

1. - Ignition immobilizer
Pro :
- can deter a steal and ride thief
- no time and effort in "activating"
- cost included in scooter price
Con:
- cannot deter a lift and carry away thief
- all buyers pay the cost, even if theft is not an issue
- totally dependent on the level of security the scooter manufacturer chooses.

2. -Security Chain, U-Bolt or Other physical anti ride away device
Pro :
- can deter a steal and ride thief
- owner decides level of protection needed and cost
Con:
- cannot deter a lift and carry away thief
- takes time to "activate"


3. -Ground or post anchored Security Chain or U-Bolt, etc
Pro :
- can deter a steal and ride thief
- can deter a lift and carry away thief
- owner decides level of protection needed and cost
Con :
- takes some time to "activate".
- an anchor point is required

Seems to me that Option 2, which is fully compatible with, and upgradable to Option 3 when an anchor point is available, is the most prudent, versatile and cost effective approach.
Member
GTS 300
Joined: 06 Dec 2015
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Location: London
Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:41 am quote
Hi guys - well I did get a reply from Vespa, they said they have been talking to the London Met Police, but they side stepped the issue that their immobiliser is useless and said they always advise a chain.

While I partially agree - chains don't fit in new Vespas due to the new abs discs, I will check out the suggested pin device.

However, I still feel,they are negligent in that the owners manual still talks about the immobiliser as if it's a security device - which it blatantly isn't (it's actually pointless at this point - in fact it's a liability, as thieves take it out in 2 minutes leaving you with an expensive repair bill).

Also because, the Immobiliser can be so easily switched, this negates many trackers as well (at least it did mine), as the tracker won't send an alert if the bike is driven away with a key. Obviously replacing the ecu gives you a new key and now the tracker things it's legitimate - so it's a catch 22!

So you have to carry around a heavy lock with you.

I have replied to Vespa and explained they are the new Range Rover - and their customers are starting to rebel. If I had read this thread 3 weeks ago I wouldn't have replaced my old Vespa. In fact if mine is stolen again, I won't replace it either - while I love the style, I won't support a company that leaves me in the cold like this.

They are equally responsible (and I told them this). The ecu immobiliser unit is is flawed. There should be a lithium battery connector embedded in the chassis, and removing the ecu should remove current and cause a reset that requires a dealer code (or something better than just a simple replacement of ebay).

You guys should all write and complain as well! Or at least phone their customer help line.

Even if you don't necessarily agree - if we don't get this changed many scooter dealers will go out of business. I know my local shop is worried, he says more people are learning about this, and many of his customers (like me), are saying they won't replace with another Vespa. He relies on happy customers that go for a yearly service and buy additional things from him.

It's a shame we live in such a sad world where this is a problem (and I envy those of you who can leave keys in your bikes). But this is a problem that should be shared By Vespa/Piaggio in my opinion.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 6:49 am quote
Hi would it not be an easier idea to increase or upgrade the security on the specific bike, if vespa introduced higher more expensive security, the people that live in a low bike crime areas would effectively be paying for security they don't actually need,and not all new vespa,s have high tech security fitted my px only has a steering lock .I fitted an alarm
george
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:39 am quote
This might help.
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 8:46 am quote
All GTS 300 customers are already paying for an immobiliser to be fitted to their bike. It's even advertised as being a security feature. Where they put it is up to Vespa. They could make it difficult to tamper with by installing it in a difficult to get to place. They choose to just put it under the seat and with a little know-how it's relatively easy to lift the seat without a key.

Living in Norwich is probably all the security you need George.

[EDIT] love the trunk monkey! Will he fit in the pet carrier?
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 4:25 pm quote
Hi mate i just thought as the thieves seem to be quite sophisticated to be able to adapt to security measures ,won't they just find a way round the under the seat piaggio version,if you install your own its not a standard model so you can mount it where you like,sadly i don't think piaggio will see it as a problem as it probably effects a very small percentage of bikes worldwide


http://www.2commute.co.uk/2015/01/13/news/bike-thieves-are-coming-for-yours-next/

just read this and its actually very shocking half of all bikes stolen were in london !

george
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Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:31 pm quote
george1966 wrote:
Hi would it not be an easier idea to increase or upgrade the security on the specific bike, if vespa introduced higher more expensive security, the people that live in a low bike crime areas would effectively be paying for security they don't actually need,and not all new vespa,s have high tech security fitted my px only has a steering lock .I fitted an alarm
george
Well, george, the equitable answer would be an aftermarket system that those in high risk locations could have installed as an option. Like you, I have no need for a for something that would raise the price of a new scooter a hundred quid or so.

If theft in London is so prevalent, one would think that some entrepreneur would come up with a viable item that would improve security against drive away thieves. Then one wouldn't have to buy a brand new scooter with improved security to address the issue.

Oh, wait, there are chains, u-bolts and the like that make drive away thefts more difficult, aren't there?

Or are we just attending a whine and cheese party here?
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GT200 & GTS250 & NC750X & Royal Enfield Pegasus
Joined: 23 Aug 2013
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Location: London
Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:41 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
Well, george, the equitable answer would be an aftermarket system that those in high risk locations could have installed as an option. Like you, I have no need for a for something that would raise the price of a new scooter a hundred quid or so.

If theft in London is so prevalent, one would think that some entrepreneur would come up with a viable item that would improve security against drive away thieves. Then one wouldn't have to buy a brand new scooter with improved security to address the issue.

Oh, wait, there are chains, u-bolts and the like that make drive away thefts more difficult, aren't there?
The immobiliser is something we're already paying for but it's completely ineffective because of where it's placed. Moving it to a better location should add nothing to the price of the bike. It's not as if Vespa aren't capable of imaginatively hiding parts around the bike, take the clock battery for instance! Decent chains work fine but most won't fit through the Vespa wheels and smaller chains are easy to cut. In fact fitting any chain through the front wheel is ineffective anyway because it only takes a minute to replace the front wheel. You keep telling us you don't need security in Greece but how long will that last? the economy there is in tatters and you have huge numbers of poor immigrants from war torn countries arriving on your doorstep. I'd imagine a 6,000 Euro bike that takes 2 min to drive away might start to become a temptation.
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Joined: 30 Oct 2015
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Location: Peterborough/London, UK
Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:22 am quote
I guess part of the problem is that scooters, and particularly Vespas, are designed and marketed as a quick, nippy, convenient mode of transport. If I have to factor in a 10 minute locking/unlocking fiasco every time I want to ride it, then it loses some of its most appealing characteristics. Plus Vespas don't have much storage/luggage capacity as it is - don't want to reduce it further by having to carry an armoury around with me!
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Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:24 am quote
Hi mate i think the point he,s making is the personal responsibility
redesigning the bike would have an cost impact across the whole range of vespa bikes,and 6000 euro is not actually an expensive bike

my ktm was considerably more expensive and had no security just a steering lock,my mates harley davidson immobiliser was useless kept arming disarming and he cant use it so rents a garage and the harly cost three times the vespa,I think you would be better off with the chains u bolts etc

i'm a believer of thomas sowell,s views on personal responsibility and entitlement ,if you create a liberal welfare based society we are now just reaping what we've sown

george
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