London Scooter Theft - taking action
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion 1234Next
Author Message
Gobshite Shiva
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 14959
Location: London UK
Thu May 12, 2016 1:20 am quote
I think it's safe to say that all of us Londoners and a fair number of UKMVers more generally are fed up to the t*ts/n*ts/whatever with the scooter theft problem in London. I'm also getting a bit bored of reading various threads complaining about it.

So let's see if we can't do something. We've got a shiny new mayor in London who has made it a priority to increase police presence and to lower crime statistics, so this is a perfect opportunity to bring the matter to his attention.

But in order to make the best use of our numbers and our collective intelligence we need to go about this sensibly. Have a read of the following excerpts from a pm conversation I had with MV member awb, and let's see if we can't put our heads together and think of some strategies:
awb wrote:
Looking at this problem from an MPs or MEPs point of view, motorcycling and scooters feature extremely low down in their consciousness, primarily I think because they are reluctant to support something that in most people’s minds is a dangerous activity and only a small percentage of their constituents actually do (of course the real figures may be different but this is how they are perceived). This is the first hurdle to overcome, one person writing has little chance of achieving anything at all.

I should also point out that most MPs are pretty hard working (despite the popular image and I am not sticking up for them) and are consequently in demand. The recent trend to write straight to your MP rather than councillor etc has resulted in their offices receiving anything between 200 – 300 emails a day not including the post. [some are unsuitable for review]. The rest have to be gone through and are often complex welfare or immigration cases which are then added to the long list of current on going cases. Once again a lone letter often doesn’t register at all.

It is worth bearing in mind that MPs will only deal with their constituents, there is a Parliamentary convention which is rigidly stuck to. They should pass on non-constituents’ details to the correct MP. This makes it difficult for disparate groups (for example the MV members across London) to write to one MP. The same applies about visiting a MPs surgery.

I think one avenue that MV members across London (and elsewhere) could consider would be writing directly to the All Parliamentary Group on Motorcycling. It would be better to do it as a group and it would take time as a decent case would need to be made, the numerous stories of theft etc. Also it should be about exploring any options to try and resolve this problem not just asking for more money as this won’t happen and any interest will be lost.

The industry knows there is a problem as evidenced by these http://www.geton.co.uk/lock-it-tag-it-or-lose-it/ and http://www.mcia.co.uk/Campaigns/MASTER-Security-Scheme.aspx but obviously it isn’t working. It maybe that presenting some easy to do ideas might attract attention of the All Parliamentary group (they will have direct access to the Motorcyle Industry Association) and you might be able to begin a dialogue that matters. I think this is shown by the letter on the thread from Piaggio not taking security seriously.

Before anything is written it would be good to try and put together as many ideas and explore various other avenues. You would then appear to be a rational and thoughtful group of people not a bunch of odd shouty individuals, politics is too full of these types of groups / people!

For myself I think one angle to raise would be security of women, it is quite obvious people are being stalked by criminals and this angle would make an interesting issue for MPs to support or the group to note.

Secondly most of the industry websites do not have any direct advice on security if you look at http://www.geton.co.uk/ where is the large button about securing your bike with some YouTube videos to show you how to do it?

The extremely useful information about chain sizes and locks which has been on MV could easily be highlighted (though there may be some commercial resistance from those whose products don’t make the grade….)

TFL I believe have finally seen the light and see PTWs as part of the solution to London’s traffic congestion, having rampant theft isn’t going to help them achieve their goals.

Also I think, being cynical, if your bike is stolen you get the insurance then buy another and repeat the process but reading the posts it looks like most people have had enough and any more thefts then they won’t buy a bike, this should be of concern to the industry. New registrations are up but for how long if your shiny new bike is nicked almost immediately and then another one becomes impossible to insure.

The industry may be persuaded to sponsor more ground looks / bars in public, plenty of roundabouts in Norwich are sponsored by local businesses. Obviously there is a greater cost but it depends on what each companies CSR programmes are.

I am sorry for the length of this reply but I am sure if everyone put their heads together a lot of very sensible points could be made and then used to contact the Parliamentary group with. I am not saying it will be a success or anything could change but I feel you might have more of a chance.
some very useful material to ponder here, folks. I think we certainly have enough evidence to present a case for the seriousness of scooter theft, and I think one point to be made here is that it is not a 'one off' crime, but the beginning of a chain of further offending including armed robbery, burglary, GBH, and handling of stolen goods, to name a few.

Another point to be made is that the police's current inability to directly engage with scooter thieves means that these crimes are being committed with impunity - apart from the knock-on crimes noted above, on the most basic level there is a significant number of untrained, unlicensed, uninsured riders on London's roads. The recent death of a scooter thief in Hackney is evidence of the seriousness of this issue.

As a female rider, I also feel the issue of personal safety very keenly. The recent report of a 6-mile pursuit and armed attack hit home - literally, as it took place only a couple of miles from where I live. And the subsequent discussion in the thread was hair-raising - we should not be having to discuss vigilante tactics as the only viable option for protecting ourselves. When rational people start having these sort of discussions, in a so-called 'global' city with a booming economy (well, until yesterday, if the BBC is to be believed), I think it's time for a wake-up call to our politicians.

Discuss
Hooked
Vespa GTS 150 3v SUPER. Vespa V100 x 1. Lambretta Li150 x 1. Px 125 x 2. Px 200 x 1 (red bull special) T5 Classic x 1. Vespa Cosa x 2.CF moto 650mt
Joined: 31 May 2015
Posts: 342
Location: Perth Australia
Thu May 12, 2016 1:49 am quote
London scooter theft.
Genie,

Good luck with your endeavours. Hopefully more like minded members from your neck of the woods will join together and make a difference.

I to thought I could make a difference for my community back in 1992. 20 years later I threw the towel in and left blighty. Unfortunately with the laws the way they are I was pis.... against the wind.

Hopefully things can change.

Good luck.

Tom Jones.

Its not unusual ........to have a scooter stolen in london.(sorry, couldn't resist)
Hooked
Triumph 900 Bonnie
Joined: 11 May 2016
Posts: 320
Location: Sussex coast.
Thu May 12, 2016 2:26 am quote
Genie, your attachment makes sense and shows clear thinking. Both are frequently missing from emotive subjects like bike/scooter theft. Count on my support in any campaign campaign against theft.
Ossessionato
GT200 & GTS250 & NC750X & Royal Enfield Pegasus
Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 2135
Location: London
Thu May 12, 2016 2:33 am quote
It's quite hard getting action through MP's and councillors. Wouldn't it be easier just providing a good story to one of the London centred TV programs. There have already been good stories on how high end Range Rovers etc could be unlocked with not much more than a laptop - this embarrassed manufacturers that a recall was made almost immediately.

The story could cover:
a) how pretty luxury scooters disappearing off the street (30 a week in London)
b) used to be stolen while you're asleep, not they seem to attack you with a hammer to get the keys as well!
c) crimes committed on the stolen scooters - one small group caused 48 offenses after stealing a scooter
d) police won't chase the culprits which gives them a very real sense of impunity
e) riders uninsured and untrained danger to everyone
f) the scooter parts are then sold on openly on ebay/gumtree etc
g) manufacturers won't improve security, won't even security mark the parts on a scooter as each stolen just provides a new opportunity to sell another scooter

I think it would make a good story.
Hooked
piaggio fly50 4t 2v , honda ruckus x 2
Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 251
Location: usa
Thu May 12, 2016 5:05 am quote
what are the penalties for stealing a scooter? here in my particular state in the usa, it is the same as stealing a car. it seems to deter most.



Thu May 12, 2016 5:13 am
This post was not quite
What we were hoping to see
Try again, perhaps?
Size of a Chaffinch
PX 125 "The Bruise" (SOLD)
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5542
Location: London
Thu May 12, 2016 5:14 am quote
There used to be a day where issued like this could be discussed at Parliament between MPs and constituents. Generally attended rather poorly by motorcycle groups but if London based scooterists could start talking to the APG on a day like we might get somewhere.

By the way, they are not interested in motorcyclists moaning about harder tests, EU directives and speed limits. There's zero mileage in complaining about these sort of things.

You might also put some pressure on the police to justify their policy of non pursuit and in what circumstances it applies.
Size of a Chaffinch
PX 125 "The Bruise" (SOLD)
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5542
Location: London
Thu May 12, 2016 5:16 am quote
jeff84 wrote:
what are the penalties for stealing a scooter? here in my particular state in the usa, it is the same as stealing a car. it seems to deter most.
It is highly dependent on the age of the offender. Since most of them are under the age of 18, I would expect that they would receive a non custodial sentence on a first offence.
Ossessionato
2016 GTS 300 Super - red, of course.
Joined: 27 Oct 2009
Posts: 4755
Location: Hertford, North Carolina
Thu May 12, 2016 5:18 am quote
I see that "LoJack is no longer actively selling the LoJack® System for motorcycles. "

http://www.lojack.com/Motorcycles

Is there a viable alternative?

And does it work effectively to A. Prevent theft, and B. recover a stolen vehicle?
Ossessionato
2006 GT200
Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 2714
Location: Moscow, Idaho
Thu May 12, 2016 5:41 am quote
robinm wrote:
It's quite hard getting action through MP's and councillors. Wouldn't it be easier just providing a good story to one of the London centred TV programs. There have already been good stories on how high end Range Rovers etc could be unlocked with not much more than a laptop - this embarrassed manufacturers that a recall was made almost immediately.

The story could cover:
a) how pretty luxury scooters disappearing off the street (30 a week in London)
b) used to be stolen while you're asleep, not they seem to attack you with a hammer to get the keys as well!
c) crimes committed on the stolen scooters - one small group caused 48 offenses after stealing a scooter
d) police won't chase the culprits which gives them a very real sense of impunity
e) riders uninsured and untrained danger to everyone
f) the scooter parts are then sold on openly on ebay/gumtree etc
g) manufacturers won't improve security, won't even security mark the parts on a scooter as each stolen just provides a new opportunity to sell another scooter

I think it would make a good story.
Yep, apply the pressure of public media. No representative or constable wants his face on the tv screen or front page being asked "why are you simply ignoring this issue [dumbass]?"

I'd use that bimbo Vice story as a hook: the fact that the thieves are willing to flaunt their disregard for the law suggests the need for municipal heads to roll etc etc.

In all honesty it seems like a really easy problem to solve (and therefore one which authorities would like to take credit to solve); because the stolen goods are used in public it's quite simple to crack down on their proliferation: simply pull over any scooter for any minor infraction, ask to see license and registration...uh, case closed: "gee, this serial number matches the report of one stolen yesterday." Arrest. Repeat. Boom. Done.

Surely the law has some recourse for dealing with people who repeatedly steal something worth c. $5,000...that's grand theft here.

Pointing out to the media that it would be this simple would embarrass those who aren't addressing the problem.

Seems to me those advocating wild west vigilantism need to ask themselves how well that has worked out in Harlem, the Bronx, Compton, NOLA, Detroit....
Hooked
GTS300
Joined: 29 Dec 2011
Posts: 133
Location: Norwich UK
Thu May 12, 2016 5:57 am quote
Please excuse another intervention from me. Getting the media involved is a good idea and I am sure they could be persuaded to run a story about scooter theft, particularly with a good human interest story. Once it has aired nothing will be any different though.

The only way to try and make headway is to run a sustained and well thought out campaign, this is especially difficult for scooter theft because we are not trying to change any laws or bring in any new ones. Stealing is a crime, hitting someone with a hammer is a crime but they are taking place.

There are lots of different bodies involved in this problem, the manufacturers, TFL, the police and the London Mayor to name but a few. Getting anything done is going to be difficult, I am sure most Londoners are aware of the problem of cyclists being killed by HGV’s at dangerous junctions and at left hand turns. Regardless of fault this problem is known to all the interested parties and there has been quite extensive media coverage, however people are still being killed.

I think the best thing would be for those interested in trying to find a solution(s) to meet up, create a campaign group try and think of some solutions and proceed from there. We are more likely to be taken seriously as a group of people who present well thought out and rational ideas.

It would be interesting if the guys who run SLUK could comment (I see they post on MV). Years ago when car theft was endemic magazines like “What Car” added a section to their car tests about security. They got along their “reformed car thief” who would be timed breaking into each car. Eventually car security got better and better (of course criminals are finding ways to bypass the high tech security as Robinm has pointed out) it would be interesting to see if any of the current bike media could be persuaded to do something similar.
Molto Verboso
Honda SH 300
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 1118
Location: MALTA
Thu May 12, 2016 6:13 am quote
Difficult
This is a major hurdle to jump, on the one hand the politicians can't be bothered. The police don't care, the insurance companies don't care ( more dosh for them ) all the main manufactures don't seem to bother to protect their customers so we buy another scooter/bike ( more dosh for them) the lock/security manufactures do there best to produce good quality
locks and chains only for the bike/ scooter to be lifted into a van.
So what do we do?
Basically nothing, just put up with it. Or....do all of the things suggested above by Jeanie awb and then start demonstrating by blocking roads, summers coming so great opportunity to meet up for a coffee then just park up outside the Houses of Parliament or any major cross roads in London ( We would have to get permission form the police to demonstrate ) for those of you that remember the demo's we had for the parking charge for bikes with Westminster, that was different, that was backed by a legal challenge in court and basically we lost.
This on the other hand is different. No cost, no legal, nobody in charge just a whole lot of hooligans ( that's what they will call us) trying to get something done about a minoroty group that are sick to death with being walked on.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu May 12, 2016 6:21 am quote
Re: Difficult
[quote="terryvanman" the insurance companies don't care ( more dosh for them ) [/quote]
Excuse me??? How is paying out $4000-$5000 in scooter replacement making them money when the person has only had the thing for a year and paid lets say $500 a year. how do they make money there????
The scooter would have to be insured for 10 years just to break even.
Addicted
GTS250, P200E
Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 728
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Thu May 12, 2016 6:44 am quote
I'm amazed that nobody has come up with a high voltage, high frequency electric shock device that could legally protect items left out in public. The high frequency would produce a skin effect to ensure that the perpetrator was not killed.

However, keeping the fuel in the gas tank from exploding could be a real obstacle. Maybe a simple electric cattle prod built into the seat?

Cheers,
Bob
Member
GTS 300
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 13
Location: Norfolk, UK
Thu May 12, 2016 6:44 am quote
I feel AWB speaks a lot of sense about how to do this. High profile news items may also help kickstart things as authorities are asked to react to the news agenda. Of the members of the APG motorcycle group only one I think is a London MP and that's Ealing North (Stephen Pound) so it may require using info on his constituency as a hook? I'm not sure if this is in his area:

[url]
http://www.ealingtimes.co.uk/news/14392569._Police_are_uninterested____Man_claims_motorbike_was_stolen_by_crime_ring/[/url]

It does appear from a quick search that one off crackdowns have been done so why not a few more of them?:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/police-swoop-on-child-scooter-theft-gangs-met-officers-in-bid-to-halt-28m-london-racket-10194349.html

[/url]
Hooked
Triumph 900 Bonnie
Joined: 11 May 2016
Posts: 320
Location: Sussex coast.
Thu May 12, 2016 7:08 am quote
Re: Difficult
WEB-Tech wrote:
[quote="terryvanman" the insurance companies don't care ( more dosh for them )
Excuse me??? How is paying out $4000-$5000 in scooter replacement making them money when the person has only had the thing for a year and paid lets say $500 a year. how do they make money there????
The scooter would have to be insured for 10 years just to break even.[/quote]

Insurance companies don't loose money, they continue to make excellent profits. The costs incurred in losses are merely added to premiums for. Every time a scooter is stolen, we all pay.
Hooked
piaggio fly50 4t 2v , honda ruckus x 2
Joined: 31 Dec 2015
Posts: 251
Location: usa
Thu May 12, 2016 7:24 am quote
Wonder Machine wrote:
jeff84 wrote:
what are the penalties for stealing a scooter? here in my particular state in the usa, it is the same as stealing a car. it seems to deter most.
It is highly dependent on the age of the offender. Since most of them are under the age of 18, I would expect that they would receive a non custodial sentence on a first offence.
there was a kid I know that stole a scooter, was charged with grand theft auto, and sentenced to one year juvenile detention. he was 16. and will be considered a felon until the age of twenty one, and if he is convicted of another felony before the age of twenty one the original felony felony sill stick with him for life.

Last edited by jeff84 on Thu May 12, 2016 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12959
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Thu May 12, 2016 7:29 am quote
tdrake wrote:
Pointing out to the media that it would be this simple would embarrass those who aren't addressing the problem.
A while back, during a previous go around on this, I asked a retired city council member friend about his thoughts on this tactic. He said he had been approached by the media on many occasions during his tenure, and in virtually every case, he could honestly say that only one or two constituents, if any, had directly contacted him for help with the given problem. If there is no constituent concern registered, then it's not a problem and not an embarrassment.

However, he did cite the "push bike lobby" in his city as a very considerable political force. They began by organizing, then presenting their concerns and requested solutions to their respective council members. The presentations were well thought out, rational and safety related. Then they addressed the city council in session, notifying the media of the date and time. And so on. Ultimately, the city passed ordinances and went to the expense of modifying rights of way for push bikes and enforcing same.

Now, as to scooters parked on your front lawn, etc, he said that if you live in a high crime area, he would expect you to apply a higher level of security for your scooter in the first place. Extra patrols and effort to catch thieves are, as he said, the responsibility of the local government, but leaving a Vespa, which can be easily picked up and carried away, parked on your front lawn or driveway in plain sight, with known to be ineffective security, is not government's fault.
Ossessionato
2006 GT200
Joined: 23 Feb 2016
Posts: 2714
Location: Moscow, Idaho
Thu May 12, 2016 8:01 am quote
Aviator47 wrote:
tdrake wrote:
Pointing out to the media that it would be this simple would embarrass those who aren't addressing the problem.
A while back, during a previous go around on this, I asked a retired city council member friend about his thoughts on this tactic. He said he had been approached by the media on many occasions during his tenure, and in virtually every case, he could honestly say that only one or two constituents, if any, had directly contacted him for help with the given problem. If there is no constituent concern registered, then it's not a problem and not an embarrassment.

Aye, good point. I was vague and meant in addition to, not in lieu of.
Size of a Chaffinch
PX 125 "The Bruise" (SOLD)
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 5542
Location: London
Thu May 12, 2016 8:02 am quote
I have to say on police response that if you say to them on the phone that you are taking the matter into your own hands when a crime is taking place that they are generally at your door toot sweet.

But when I got mugged while pregnant in London I called my bank before I called the police - I knew that the police wouldn't help me. And they didn't, by the way, they never even turned up. The bank at least stopped my card for me. It's a sad world, really.
Hooked
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 122
Location: Walking
Thu May 12, 2016 8:37 am quote
I've actually become pretty disgusted by the police's lack of concern with stopping crime. I don't know what they're focusing on, but theft seems to not even register on their radar.
Ossessionato
2010 PIAGGIO BV 500ie Tourer
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 4629
Location: Lakeshore, ON, CANADA-Capestang,FR
Thu May 12, 2016 8:48 am quote
Boswelox wrote:
I've actually become pretty disgusted by the police's lack of concern with stopping crime. I don't know what they're focusing on, but theft seems to not even register on their radar.
Their new mandate is terrorism. If what is going on in London isn't terrorism, I don't know what is.
You folks are being inculcated with this as being the new norm. Too bad.
Hooked
2015 GTS 300 Super ABS and 2015 Sprint 150 ABS
Joined: 26 Jul 2015
Posts: 201
Location: OR & WA
Thu May 12, 2016 9:21 am quote
Wonder Machine wrote:
I have to say on police response that if you say to them on the phone that you are taking the matter into your own hands when a crime is taking place that they are generally at your door toot sweet.

But when I got mugged while pregnant in London I called my bank before I called the police - I knew that the police wouldn't help me. And they didn't, by the way, they never even turned up. The bank at least stopped my card for me. It's a sad world, really.
It is horrible that you were mugged, let alone that you were pregnant when it happened!

As for calling the police and threatening to take matters into one's own hands, I did that once, after midnight, and it worked. "Hello. Some people at a party across the street are threatening my wife with violence. I have an axe, and I am going to take matters into my own hands unless you arrive here in the next two minutes." They were there within two minutes!

It is a shame we cannot live peacefully or rely upon others, including the police, to protect us. However, I suppose it has always been this way throughout history.
Gobshite Shiva
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 14959
Location: London UK
Thu May 12, 2016 10:25 am quote
thank you for your thoughts everyone there has been some very useful information exchanged in this thread (and some not-so-useful - can I just add that anyone advocating any kind of firearm use will be summarily ejected from the thread).

it looks like the best way forward is to begin to put a campaign group together. we have enough interested parties here to make a start, and we already know of other scooter organisations who'd likely be willing to get involved. more people can be found through social networks.

it may in fact be the case that the police and politicians simply don't care. but I don't actually believe that - at least I don't believe it yet. having just seen a pair of toerags cruise past my house, two-up on an obviously stolen GTS, openly checking out my and my neighbour's security setups, I feel renewed energy to pursue this.

APG.jpg

Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Thu May 12, 2016 11:34 am quote
jeff84 wrote:
Wonder Machine wrote:
jeff84 wrote:
what are the penalties for stealing a scooter? here in my particular state in the usa, it is the same as stealing a car. it seems to deter most.
It is highly dependent on the age of the offender. Since most of them are under the age of 18, I would expect that they would receive a non custodial sentence on a first offence.
there was a kid I know that stole a scooter, was charged with grand theft auto, and sentenced to one year juvenile detention. he was 16. and will be considered a felon until the age of twenty one, and if he is convicted of another felony before the age of twenty one the original felony felony sill stick with him for life.
That's in the States. Here in the UK that kid would (assuming the police could be bothered to catch him) get a written warning (1st offence), then community service (2nd offence), then maybe a few weeks juvenile detention (3rd+ offence), rinse repeat.

If an adult, the process is exactly the same but with jail instead of juvie.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Thu May 12, 2016 11:45 am quote
A friend of mine is on first-name terms with the new Mayor. Maybe I'll see about getting a letter to his desk for comment.

I still maintain that the best way to go about this is commercial. If we should lobby anyone, it should be the insurance companies. Perhaps a council or councils might be willing to place ground anchors in their MC bays if an insurance company (perhaps a specialist MC insurer like MCE or some such) were to sponsor it in exchange for advertising space.

The insurance company would have the obvious benefit of advertising and the secondary benefit of fewer theft claims, and we would have better security.

Somehow I don't think a Conservative government is going to pay much more than lip service to the idea of reallocating police resources from crimes against the person and counter-terrorism given that they were the ones who made the cuts in the first place.
Ossessionato
2013 Vespa LX150ie, 1968 Vespa Sprint 150
Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 4037
Location: Ogden, UT U.S.A.
Thu May 12, 2016 11:56 am quote
As an outsider looking in, parking garages with spots for scoots and motorcycles seems to be the best solution. Perhaps there is need for a new law mandating that all parking structures provide parking to up to 100 bikes as well allocating funds to create more garages exclusively for riders would address this issue. I would think the effort to reduce congestion, crime and pollution in London would be a great impetus to getting this rolling.
Ossessionato
2010 PIAGGIO BV 500ie Tourer
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 4629
Location: Lakeshore, ON, CANADA-Capestang,FR
Thu May 12, 2016 12:03 pm quote
ianp wrote:
jeff84 wrote:
Wonder Machine wrote:
jeff84 wrote:
what are the penalties for stealing a scooter? here in my particular state in the usa, it is the same as stealing a car. it seems to deter most.
It is highly dependent on the age of the offender. Since most of them are under the age of 18, I would expect that they would receive a non custodial sentence on a first offence.
there was a kid I know that stole a scooter, was charged with grand theft auto, and sentenced to one year juvenile detention. he was 16. and will be considered a felon until the age of twenty one, and if he is convicted of another felony before the age of twenty one the original felony felony sill stick with him for life.
That's in the States. Here in the UK that kid would (assuming the police could be bothered to catch him) get a written warning (1st offence), then community service (2nd offence), then maybe a few weeks juvenile detention (3rd+ offence), rinse repeat.

If an adult, the process is exactly the same but with jail instead of juvie.
When I was a 'yungun' many years ago, there was no juvie. It was called reform school.
Depending on the severity of the offense, there could be a conditional punishment added to incarceration.
It was called the lash.
Statistics proved that under the lash provisions, recidivism was close to zero.
A message there maybe?
Mugging pregnant women, smashing knees with hammers, etc., could it be a deterrent?
Don't know, just a thought.
It's obvious today's candyass approach to youth crime isn't working.
Perhaps enforced military training for several years would be a less painful approach than the lash.
Perhaps give the 'kiddies' a choice of one, or the other.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Thu May 12, 2016 12:05 pm quote
Paddlenround wrote:
As an outsider looking in, parking garages with spots for scoots and motorcycles seems to be the best solution. Perhaps a new law mandating that all parking structures provide parking to up to 100 bikes as well as funds to create more garages exclusively for riders. I would think the effort to reduce congestion, crime and pollution in London would be a great impetus to getting this rolling.
Public car parks (parking lots/garages) tend to have motorcycle space, and most local councils (county governments) tend to provide on-street motorcycle parking bays.

The problem is that unless it can be locked to a sturdy object, most scooters can be lifted into a van in seconds to be parted out or hot wired in a private location later on. Some end up being taken to Eastern Europe and re-sold there, and others are kept in London but end up being rebadged with the VIN plates off a salvage bike then resold.

The authorities, in this time of Conservative austerity, take the view that it's the owner's responsibility to secure his/her vehicle, and to carry good insurance should that fail. However, our scooters aren't easy to lock even if there were ground anchors to which to lock them. Insurance is also extremely expensive because of all the theft.

Last edited by ianp on Thu May 12, 2016 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu May 12, 2016 12:24 pm quote
Boswelox wrote:
I've actually become pretty disgusted by the police's lack of concern with stopping crime. I don't know what they're focusing on, but theft seems to not even register on their radar.
In the US all they want to do is search cars and people to make drug busts. In the US in a cops eyes, you are guilty of something till you can prove otherwise.
Destroyer of Worlds
LML Star 125, Vespa GT200
Joined: 12 Aug 2007
Posts: 2010
Location: London, United Kingdom
Thu May 12, 2016 12:28 pm quote
WEB-Tech wrote:
In the US in a cops eyes, you are guilty of something till you can prove otherwise.
And this is literally true in cases of civil asset forfeiture. (Google it)

But that's off-topic for this thread.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Thu May 12, 2016 12:35 pm quote
ianp wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
In the US in a cops eyes, you are guilty of something till you can prove otherwise.
And this is literally true in cases of civil asset forfeiture. (Google it)

But that's off-topic for this thread.
It has gotten to the point if I withdraw a large amount of cash from the bank I keep the withdraw slip on me till I buy what ever I am buying.
Did this when I bought the BV350, took $6000 cash out of my account and made sure withdraw slip never left the envelope.
Molto Verboso
Honda SH 300
Joined: 24 Nov 2009
Posts: 1118
Location: MALTA
Thu May 12, 2016 2:27 pm quote
Re: Difficult
WEB-Tech wrote:
[quote="terryvanman" the insurance companies don't care ( more dosh for them )
Excuse me??? How is paying out $4000-$5000 in scooter replacement making them money when the person has only had the thing for a year and paid lets say $500 a year. how do they make money there????
The scooter would have to be insured for 10 years just to break even.[/quote]

Your premiums will go up it you haven't taken out no claims cover. and you get charged just to re-insure the new scooter with a new number plate. ask anyone who's had more than 1 scooter nicked and see what he gets charged the next time he applies for insurance, you start at the bottom and work your way up to 70% discount that takes a few years.
Ossessionato
2013 Vespa LX150ie, 1968 Vespa Sprint 150
Joined: 20 Feb 2011
Posts: 4037
Location: Ogden, UT U.S.A.
Thu May 12, 2016 3:50 pm quote
ianp wrote:
Paddlenround wrote:
As an outsider looking in, parking garages with spots for scoots and motorcycles seems to be the best solution. Perhaps a new law mandating that all parking structures provide parking to up to 100 bikes as well as funds to create more garages exclusively for riders. I would think the effort to reduce congestion, crime and pollution in London would be a great impetus to getting this rolling.
Public car parks (parking lots/garages) tend to have motorcycle space, and most local councils (county governments) tend to provide on-street motorcycle parking bays.
My point was that they shouldn't be on the street at all but in a car park where there is a full time security guard and a garage door entrance which requires payment. When I was living in Bangkok, I frequently parked in mall garages, hotel garages and other parking garages vs. the street where I would pay a small fee to keep my bike.

By instituting motorcycle/scooter parking garages throughout London, the city could effectively reduce traffic, theft and pollution. It would also keep bikes off the sidewalk and free up street spaces for cars. Most important, it would provide secure parking, thus reducing these van thefts.

You wouldn't need a ton of space for these facilities. You an easily position five or more bikes in a single parking stall and with a decent design, you could create small 20-100 spot garages placed close to tube stops. You put in a few video cameras and put an automated gate. Even with high real estate prices, you could easily generate enough revenue with renters using the spots.

Bangkok parking was not expensive, around 30 baht a day ($1). However, I imagine if you charge £3 for a day and had a hundred spots, plus extra charges for overnight parking. You could easily generate £10,000 per month. £60 per month to keep your bike secure while at work would be pretty cheap cost.

I know privately property is at a premium in London and this is why this scheme has to be taken up by the government. Perhaps using space from the Royal Mail or other government organizations that are no longer as relevant or who can spare the space.

Just my thoughts....
Moderator
2006 PX 150 & Malossi Kitted Malaguti Yesterday (Wife's)
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 12959
Location: Paros Island, Greece
Thu May 12, 2016 10:25 pm quote
Re: Difficult
terryvanman wrote:
WEB-Tech wrote:
[quote="terryvanman" the insurance companies don't care ( more dosh for them )
Excuse me??? How is paying out $4000-$5000 in scooter replacement making them money when the person has only had the thing for a year and paid lets say $500 a year. how do they make money there????
The scooter would have to be insured for 10 years just to break even.

Your premiums will go up it you haven't taken out no claims cover. and you get charged just to re-insure the new scooter with a new number plate. ask anyone who's had more than 1 scooter nicked and see what he gets charged the next time he applies for insurance, you start at the bottom and work your way up to 70% discount that takes a few years.
terry-

It's called "risk spreading". Thousands of insured people pay premiums, and only a relatively small percentage of them file claims. The premiums are based on the claims experience of the entire group, with some adjustments for an individual's experience, age, prior claims, etc. The insurance company does not make money on an individual person's premiums and claims, but on the whole of their customers. For every person who pays, as you suggest, $500 in premiums and suffers a $5000 loss, there are 10 or 15 other people paying $500 and filing no claims.
Ossessionato
GT200 & GTS250 & NC750X & Royal Enfield Pegasus
Joined: 23 Aug 2013
Posts: 2135
Location: London
Thu May 12, 2016 11:54 pm quote
Re: Difficult
Paddlenround wrote:
My point was that they shouldn't be on the street at all but in a car park where there is a full time security guard and a garage door entrance which requires payment.
Here in London we can often park in the city car parks for free. We either get the unused areas around the car park or a complete floor to ourselves. In many car parks we don't have to pay either. Sadly car parks don't offer any more protection than parking on the street. I had the car park attendant come up to me, while locking my GTS, to warn me about youths on scooters cruising the car park looking for scooters to steal. He was a nice old guy but he isn't going to stand in the way of them and the police wouldn't turn up fast enough to be a deterrent.
Aviator47 wrote:
It's called "risk spreading"...
Wouldn't it make more sense for the insurers to simply stop insuring metal bodied Vespas? Over here we have them being stolen and, in the US, riders demand a complete respray after every tiny scratch. I'd read somewhere that approximately 30 GTS's get stolen a week in London - this means they'd increase their profits by £7m by refusing to insure Vespas - and that's in London alone. I don't know how many scooters get accidentally dropped but if it costs $2k to respray then the overall bill for Vespas must add up over there. Why spread the risk when you could simply remove it altogether?

I like both my GT and GTS but Piaggio need to concentrate on these issues rather than just picking a new colour each year. Future customers will wise up and want to buy a scooter that won't get stolen or they'll want to buy a scooter that they can afford to insure.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
2008 MP3 500, 2013 BV350, 2020 Vespa Sei Giorni
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 7494
Location: Ashburn, Va. Home to the Internet
Fri May 13, 2016 4:07 am quote
Like I said before, how does the manufacture secure something that can be picked up and taken away.
Think the city needs to do it's job and find a way to decrease the theft and it's not just scooters.
We get reports all the time about the percentage of people in US jails compared to other country's, well maybe you all need to lock more blokes up behind bars.
More reform schools and juvenile detention centers with very strict and enforced rules. Make them like military boot camps so they're not just sitting around relaxing all day. Work from the time they get up to the time they go back to their cells.
Gobshite Shiva
Kymco Downtown 300i the 'Dolphin Noise'
Joined: 16 Mar 2007
Posts: 14959
Location: London UK
Fri May 13, 2016 4:07 am quote
list
so when we eventually stop debating peripheral issues perhaps we can put together a list of suggestions to present to the APG/Mayor/Police. Recognising that we are unlikely to get any change in the law, I would suggest we focus on strategies that make scooters more difficult to steal and more difficult to re-sell as ringers or for parts.

1. an awareness campaign for owners educating them about the need to lock their scooters up securely. There have already been a number of suggestions in this thread about how/where we could do this.

2. putting pressure on sites like ebay and gumtree where stolen scooters (ringers) are openly sold. At the moment requests to get these listings taken down seem to be ignored.

3. suggesting that the police put a bit more time into investigating dubious businesses (seller 'a. pandy' on ebay was pointed out some time ago) that deal in stolen scooter parts. if we can identify them easily then it's not going to take much investigative work to find out who and where they are.

I'm not sure if it's worth putting any pressure on the police to do more stop 'n searches of suspicious individuals, because the moment the police show any interest in someone who might be on a stolen scooter they simply take off, secure in the knowledge that they won't be pursued. Making it a pain in the a$$ to steal scooters in the first place, and a pain in the a$$ to make money off them if you do manage to steal them, ought to take a significant number of toerags out of the equation, leaving the police to focus their energies on the more serious criminals.
Ossessionato
X10 350
Joined: 12 Nov 2008
Posts: 2956
Location: London
Fri May 13, 2016 4:43 am quote
?4? emphasise the link between thefts of scooters and other crime (using them for robberies, etc) as a reason why police should get involved?

?5? emphasise the apparently growing use of violence in scooter theft. Surely it becomes more of a priority for the police when it's not simply theft but also dangerous assault?
Member
GTS 300
Joined: 15 Aug 2015
Posts: 13
Location: Norfolk, UK
Fri May 13, 2016 4:44 am quote
Police and Crime Plan
I don't live in London but it's perhaps worth noting that the Police and Crime Plan which guides priorities expires in 2016:

https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/mayors-office-policing-and-crime-mopac/our-strategies/police-and-crime-plan

So there is perhaps an opportunity through the new Mayor and local Assembly reps to highlight the issue. One of the previous priorities was a 20% reduction in seven key crimes, including theft of motor vehicles and there is a data dashboard highlighting progress (or not). So at one level it's holding to account on their own priorities and on another also framing new ones

There is also a specific London Assembly Police and Crime Committee:

https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/london-assembly/police-and-crime-committee

I guess that way residents from across boroughs can contact members or the Chair of that cttee regardless of where they live to highlight cross London concerns?

I think if you can use existing processes and priorities there is more chance getting someone's ear amongst the million and one other voices clamouring to be heard. Hope that's sort of helpful?
Rallies Europe 2016   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
Post Reply    Forum -> General Discussion 1234Next
[ Time: 0.2527s ][ Queries: 25 (0.0505s) ][ Debug on ]