OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
My 1980 P200 has been having trouble recently burning oil on startup ( What is it trying to tell me? ) but I have reduced the problem somewhat by replacing all the gaskets. I have not been able to ride much since I did that but it doesn't look like it has solved the problem.

Now I have another issue that may or may not be related to the smoke problem.

The scoot recently started leaking oil from someplace on the clutch side. I was hoping for something simple like a bad clutch cover seal, but no such luck. After cleaning everything and coating it all with talcum powder I found that oil is leaking from the exhaust box. There are pinholes on the side and the bottom as well as a leak around the mounting bracket. I suppose I could plug the holes with something (JB Weld?) but I'm thinking that that would simply force the oil out through the tail pipe.

The real question though is "How did the oil get into the exhaust in the first place?" Would that be loose rings? The scoot has autolube that seems to be working properly but could oil seep past the rings overnight and into the exhaust and could that be the reason that I get clouds of blue smoke when I start up in the morning? Is there any other way oil could get into the exhaust?

I have tried disconnecting the oil line overnight and then reconnecting it in the morning but I still get blue smoke. I am wondering if that could be from residual oil in the system before I disconnected the oil line. By disconnecting the oil line overnight I may be reducing the amount of oil (blue smoke) but I can't tell.

To make things even more confounding, the engine mounting bolt is leaking. No, of course the bolt isn't actually leaking oil, but oil IS puddling around the mounting bolt nut and then dripping down onto the floorboard but I can't find the source... even with talcum powder.

Any thoughts from the forum on:
How oil could get into the exhaust box?

If patching the pinhole leaks would help?

Could oil in the exhaust box be the source of my morning smoke?

Does disconnecting the oil line overnight tell me anything?

Why there is oil around the nut on engine mounting bolt?
Pinhole leak on side of exhaust box.
Pinhole leak on side of exhaust box.
Pinhole leak on bottom
Pinhole leak on bottom
Leakage around mounting bracket.
Leakage around mounting bracket.
"leaky bolt"
"leaky bolt"
Oil on floorboard
Oil on floorboard
@bobo avatar
UTC

Ossessionato
'70 Super 150, Medley 150S, '23 Ducati Monster SP
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2533
Location: Sydney, Australia
 
Ossessionato
@bobo avatar
'70 Super 150, Medley 150S, '23 Ducati Monster SP
Joined: UTC
Posts: 2533
Location: Sydney, Australia
UTC quote
Are you leaving the fuel tap on? Looks to me that your float and /or needle are knackered letting fuel drain through the carb into the exhaust.
@puredrivensnow avatar
UTC

Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
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Posts: 675
 
Addicted
@puredrivensnow avatar
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: UTC
Posts: 675
UTC quote
When I have a leak in my sight glass/oil line/2t tank into the frame that's where it shows up. Around that bolt, eventually on the floor and it drips from under the bike onto the exhaust.
UTC

Addicted
Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
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Posts: 683
Location: New Zealand
 
Addicted
Old douglas ..smallie with polini 115..super with nasco 177
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Location: New Zealand
UTC quote
hmmmmmm
Carbs can only leak out the exhaust.( and it will be thin,smell of petrol and be the colour of your oil eg red

Tank and petcock will leak in to frame under the seat and find its way out the cable exit hole in the frame....and then down to any where below...the wind can flick it from there

Head gasket leaks end up on top of the exhaust stub or sometime times on the floor rails..and it will be black and thick

Clouds of white smoke smack of a clutch side seal....and I had it happen immediately after fitting a new one( some are crap)

Don't fall for the "I only replaced them x amount of kms ago so they should be fine"

ANY time you split cases...spend the $40

Id be going back to basics and fit new high quality seals both sides....new gaskets with grease only..(silicon separates parts by a few mm which will leak when the metal expands)

then chase the leak
UTC

Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: United States
 
Molto Verboso
Lambretta GP200, Vespa P200e, Motovespa do Brasil PX200E
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: United States
UTC quote
Cracked oil tank
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
How about pulling the exhaust off overnight and seeing what comes out of the stub?
UTC

Hooked
2009 Stella,
Joined: UTC
Posts: 134
Location: PA
 
Hooked
2009 Stella,
Joined: UTC
Posts: 134
Location: PA
UTC quote
If it were a Stella, I'd suggest the 2T oil check valve .
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Thank you all for responding so quickly... I really appreciate the input.

Bobo: Yes I turn off the petcock when not in use. In fact I run the engine for an additional 20-30 seconds before I shut off the ignition.

I have disconnected the gasoline line overnight and there was no leakage so the petcock shutoff is working properly. From what I can see, it is only oil that is being burned.

Pure: I hadn't thought about the sight glass... I'll check it out tomorrow.

Bluecati: I rebuilt the clutch a couple of months ago which is why I first thought that the new clutch cover O-ring might have failed but I don't see any oil leaking out of that joint. I also replaced the clutch arm O-ring and I don't see any oil leaking from there either.
Even if one of those O-rings had failed I wonder if the oil could have migrated to the exhaust box.
I agree that new gaskets & seals should be used every time.

Almo: I hope it's not a cracked oil tank. That will be a pain in the ass to replace. I'll save that for one of the last options.

Ginch: I would guess that only oil would come out of the exhaust stub but my knowledge is limited... is there something else I should look for?

Springer: I replaced the oil check valve several months ago and checked it again when this problem first started. It seems to be fine.
@puredrivensnow avatar
UTC

Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
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Addicted
@puredrivensnow avatar
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: UTC
Posts: 675
UTC quote
Just pull your gas tank and look inside the frame.
@ph0ngvu avatar
UTC

Hooked
Vespa
Joined: UTC
Posts: 496
Location: US
 
Hooked
@ph0ngvu avatar
Vespa
Joined: UTC
Posts: 496
Location: US
UTC quote
make sure the fuel line is pushed all the way into the fuel tap line out. I had problem before and solved it by using adjustable clamp
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Member
p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 30
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Member
p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 30
Location: Columbus Ohio
UTC quote
If it's just oil and no gas in your exhaust, consider the autolube as a possibility. With respect to oil in the exhaust and a blast of white smoke in the morning, I recall that there was a problem with the autolube mechanism on a run of Stellas a decade or so ago. Basically, the hole for the ball bearing which sealed the autolube when not in use was drilled too deep and the ball bearing wasn't sealing, resulting in a steady trickle of two cycle oil into the exhaust. They solved it by doubling up the autolube gasket for additional height. After a certain amount of time the gaskets broke down, the additional height was lost, and the problem restarted. Obviously, you don't have a Stella, but a check of your carb box to make sure that ball bearing is sealing might make sense.
UTC

Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1220
Location: NC, USA
 
Molto Verboso
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1220
Location: NC, USA
UTC quote
I just had my first check valve bleed through after more than ten years of autolube use. '79 P200. LOTS of smoke on startup, but ran great. A ball of cotton stuffed on top of the throttle slide was saturated with two-stroke oil the next morning.
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Yes, my first thought was the ball bearing check valve. This is actually the second time that I've run into a smoke problem. The first time, back in January, I found that the check valve ball bearing was missing so I replaced it and the smoke stopped. When the problem returned a couple of months ago, the first thing I looked at was the check valve but it was still in place. I replaced it anyway and when I checked a couple of weeks the replacement was still in place and apparently operating properly.

I'm not going to have too much time to do any wrenching for a while but I'll try the cotton ball trick as soon as I can.
@pdxjim avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
2005 PX150 In a Part-time Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1866
 
Molto Verboso
@pdxjim avatar
2005 PX150 In a Part-time Relationship with a 2-Stroke Vespa Since 2007
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1866
UTC quote
I had a similar problem a few years ago where it smoked a lot on startup after sitting overnight but stopped in a few minutes and ran fine warmed up.

I didn't want to believe it could be the check valve because I had already replaced the ball and spring and it hadn't made any difference.

Off the bike, I was able to see for myself that it slowly dripped and came to the conclusion that it had to be the valve seat which is drilled into the body of the air box. On the verge of ordering another air box, I decided to try resurfacing the valve seat with toothpaste - a very mild and fine abrasive - on a swab mounted in a drill. Because of the angle, I had to use a bit of tubing as a swivel joint and gave it a try and it worked - the leak stopped. I tested the fix over the next 48 hours and it held. (Obviously, any use of any abrasive in this area required very thorough cleaning before final reassembly on the bike.)

At the time it also occurred to me that when the oil tube is removed from the air box inlet pipe, the possibility exists of introducing crud or contaminate into the system, since there is no filter after the tank. If that happened, it could get sucked through the pump and possibly stuck on the valve seat, also causing a leak. This is merely theoretical and something a thorough cleaning with a swab and solvent ought to fix, but it's still food for thought.
⚠️ Last edited by pdxjim on UTC; edited 1 time
UTC

Member
p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 30
Location: Columbus Ohio
 
Member
p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 30
Location: Columbus Ohio
UTC quote
Aww man, why didn't I ever think about using a cotton ball to diagnose that. I spent a lot of time disassembling and screwing around with a flashlight to check that ball bearing. Could have just put in a cotton ball, cracked a beer and waited until morning....
⬆️    About 1 month elapsed    ⬇️
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Reviving last month's thread.

The Forum has been great for offering suggestions for locating the oil leak that has been plaguing me since October, but I've still got the problem.

Most of the suggestions have been to check for leaks around the oil tank and/or sight glass so I've pulled the gas/oil tank, powdered everything and found that there are no leaks there. I also powdered the Engine Mounting Bolt and floorboards and found that I am still getting an oil leak.

Since the oil tank is on my workbench I'm guessing that it must be transmission oil that is leaking but I have not been able to locate it. So far, I've followed up on the various suggestions:

There is no leakage around the clutch even though I recently replaced it. I thought that the clutch was the most likely source as I could have easily screwed up the installation. I checked it with talcum powder and there are no leaks there.

The fuel tap is closed and does not leak.

There is no leakage on the oil tank connections nor on around the sight glass.

There is no leakage around the top or the bottom of the cylinder.

There is no oil pooled in the bottom of the frame.

Autolube is working fine.

Check valve has been replaced and the seat was burnished.


I am thinking that the next thing for me to do is drop the engine and check again for leaks someplace on the case. I really don't want to do that since it's a major project for me so before I do that I want to ask for any other ideas from the forum.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Oil leakage AFTER oil tank is removed.
Oil leakage AFTER oil tank is removed.
@m_dez avatar
UTC

Member
LX 150, '63 Allstate, '71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 31
Location: Humboldt County
 
Member
@m_dez avatar
LX 150, '63 Allstate, '71 Rally 180
Joined: UTC
Posts: 31
Location: Humboldt County
UTC quote
I had a similar issues, where I had fuel around the floor board and the fuel tap was turned off. It ended up being a leak in the fuel line. So it could be that your oil line has a crack in it.
@kyvelis avatar
UTC

Addicted
79' p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 573
Location: greece
 
Addicted
@kyvelis avatar
79' p125x
Joined: UTC
Posts: 573
Location: greece
UTC quote
is that dye pen developer?
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Thanks for the quick responses.

m_dez, I checked both the oil line and the fuel lines and they are both good. They are currently out of the body with the gas/oil tanks so I've eliminated the as the source of the leak.

No kyvelis that is not dye pen developer. I just cleaned the surface area with a degreaser and blew talcum powder onto the surface. Any oil leak shows up easily in the powder. All of my earlier pics used the same methodology.
@ginch avatar
UTC

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
 
Veni, Vidi, Posti
@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595
Location: Victoria, Australia
UTC quote
Gear oil generally has a definite smell to it... maybe it tastes bad too but so far I've only smelled it. Razz emoticon So perhaps smell it and it should help you identify where it's coming from
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Dumb luck will always win out over skill and ability!

After following numerous recommendations from MV forum readers, I finally found the source of the oil leaking from the clutch side of my P200.

After spending a LOT of time on my back, I can confirm that the oil is NOT coming from:
the clutch cover O ring
the clutch arm O ring
the sight glass
the oil tank
the autolube system
the oil checkvalve or
the airbox gaskets

Instead, the oil source can be traced back to a posting I made on the Random Trick and Shortcuts string on this forum. ( Random tricks, share your best little tips & shortcuts (Page 4) called Magnet Tricks and dated Aug 4, 2013). Pics 5 and 6 show how, using magnets, I store an emergency bottle of oil inside the battery-side cowl. I've been doing it for years on both of the scooters I've owned and never had a problem until now. I took off the cowl last week and yesterday I had to move it and I happened to put it on my workbench with the inside facing up instead of down. That's when I noticed that the oil bottle there was empty... which was strange because I have never used it! Then I realized that the oil bottle, now empty, was mounted directly above the point where oil had been pooling on the floorboard before dripping down onto the garage floor. Mystery solved!

When I checked it out I found that somehow the bottle had developed a pin hole leak and had been leaking, very slowly, for probably the last month. When I put everything back together last week, the leaking had stopped, not because of something I had done but rather because the bottle was empty. Sheer dumb luck.

Thank you all for your suggestions and recommendations. It was a Character Building Experience.
@joshbangbang avatar
UTC

Hooked
CUTDOWN PX200.1978 YAMAHA DT 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 285
Location: southwestau
 
Hooked
@joshbangbang avatar
CUTDOWN PX200.1978 YAMAHA DT 125
Joined: UTC
Posts: 285
Location: southwestau
UTC quote
pmsl
OP
@fatbear5 avatar
UTC

Molto Verboso
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
 
Molto Verboso
@fatbear5 avatar
1977 P200, 1980 P200
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1214
Location: Fresno, CA
UTC quote
Yeah, me too... now
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