Smallframe with a P200 engine?
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Hooked
Joined: 29 Oct 2019
Posts: 126
Location: Bakersfield
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:57 am quote
That's too bad you had to modify the exhaust....but nevertheless awesome job! For the sake of it that guy still has a few pm tuning pipes left. Dont pay full price. He had mine listed at 149 and he accepted 100.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:35 am quote
Re: For the sake of it
None of them seem to have silencers so I guess you gotta find a silencer to mount on the end, but at least there are options for silencers on PM tuning website!

Last edited by swiss1939 on Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:35 am quote
Roliver1972 wrote:
That's too bad you had to modify the exhaust....but nevertheless awesome job! For the sake of it that guy still has a few pm tuning pipes left. Dont pay full price. He had mine listed at 149 and he accepted 100.
I was so excited to actually find one of those pipes I paid his asking price...which was still way less than getting one from SIP. I didnít see the ďmake offerĒ because I clicked ďbuy it nowĒ too quickly. Oh well, we were both happy, so itís a win win. If I decide to go after a second one, now I know to offer a little less $.

I was a bit skeptical before I even got the pipe that it would even fit. It was a quick and simple fix, so no skin off my back. Plus I got to relocate the main body of the pipe exactly where I wanted it.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:01 pm quote
The main reason I wanted an up and over pipe was because I have a goitered lump hanging out the side of the scooter. I wanted to hide the engine a little bit, so I decided to hide it with an obnoxious looking pipe.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:04 pm quote
I had to cut out part of the PK cowl a smidge to gain the clearance to get the pipe fitted. Thereís plenty of clearance at full suspension travel.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:16 pm quote
I temporarily have a 226 Vintage end can bolted up to the pipe for preliminary jetting and testing. Iíll switch the van out to something else a little less blue at some point soon. Iím also planning on coating the expansion chamber with something. Iím not 100% sure just yet, but I was looking at getting a cerma-coating on it. The company I called that does the coating has it in a white color. A white would definitely match the theme of the scoot, but I have concerns about keeping it white for a ride thatís longer than 50 miles! One of my friendís did surprise me with an Amazon package that he had delivered to my house. I was trying to figure out what the item was in the box, and it was high-temp exhaust wrap...but can anyone here want to take a crack at what color it is?

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Sat Feb 01, 2020 1:05 pm quote
That thing looks fast!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7661
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:49 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
...but can anyone here want to take a crack at what color it is?
Pink?
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7761
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:16 pm quote
I think I'd like to take a spin on that thing, I like pink.....
Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1428
Location: california
Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:56 pm quote
Damn Whodat - just looking back through - those are some mighty fine welds. Wondering why I am allowing any of my welds to show in my own pics now.
Did you TIG the pipe when you put the new bracket on?
Set up looks bad ass with the intestine shaped pipe doing its curly cue thing over the motor. Nice!
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:43 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
...but can anyone here want to take a crack at what color it is?
Pink?
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what it was for about 15 minutes. I figured Amazon accidentally shipped a roll of Floridadian lawn furniture repair webbing. I finally peeled back the clear packaging and felt the material, and then instantly knew what it was. My buddy got me pretty good on that one. I do hope to utilize it though!

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:49 pm quote
swiss1939 wrote:
That thing looks fast!
My goal is to make is LOOK faster than it really is, so that part of the project is a success. Weíll see how well the PM Tuning pipe works with a stock 200 engine though. Normally expansion chambers and a stock engine (non-ported mind you) isnít a good combo.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:59 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
I think I'd like to take a spin on that thing, I like pink.....
EVERYONE so far loves the color! I did a 100 mile highway ride back in November and everyone was was giving me a thumbs up on the highway! I got LOTS of laughs and smiles from all sorts...women, girls, redneck dudes, old people, little girls, even high school age guys. This scooter could be my secret weapon to getting dates even! I think I almost stole a redneckís girlfriend away from him. They were parked (in his huge jacked up pickem up truck), and when I rode by, she jumped out and pointed at me. The dude was bummed. I should start carrying a spare helmet with me now...you know, just in case someone else needs a ride.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:18 pm quote
That retro pipe just goes with the look. Like it.

The pipe will look like a "pig in a blanket" with that tape on but will reduce the burn for you and anyone that might happen to want a ride.

Why not put the Alpha kit on?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:46 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Damn Whodat - just looking back through - those are some mighty fine welds. Wondering why I am allowing any of my welds to show in my own pics now.
Did you TIG the pipe when you put the new bracket on?
Set up looks bad ass with the intestine shaped pipe doing its curly cue thing over the motor. Nice!
The welds came out alright for MIG welding the bracket back on. I used my little Lincoln 110 (.030 solid core wire). I did a continuous stitch. Itís where you turn the heat up a little more than usual, and then do pretty much a continuous spot weld. By doing that you less heat is built up on the metal that youíre welding on. Plus you can shape your weld puddle how you want it to look a little bit. Itís fairly easy to do on light gauge sheet metal since the material can easily be penetrated correctly. Itís probably not something that should be done on heavier gauge steel since the weld wonít get deep enough.

Iíve been welding for years. Nothing professional per say (and no certification), but I have done lots of welding for my carpentery work. Iíve welded up quite a few handrails for both residential and commercial properties (and sk8 parks too!). I also have done lots of automotive repair that required welding too. I enjoy it quite a bit as a hobby, but welding outside in the sweltering sun (or freezing cold torrential rain) at a jobsite can get a little old real quick!

I think the trick to make your welds look nicer is to take a low quality picture of it with an old flip phone. If someone complains about it not having ďstacked dimesĒ, just explain to them that those are just pixels.

I currently have 3 welders. A Lincoln 110, a Esab 260 (which I really love), and an old Lincoln/Onan arc welder/generator thatís lays down some very nice weld beads. That machine has got to weigh somewhere over 500lbs! I can weld 1/2Ē plate single pass with it! It has an electric start (that takes two 12v car batteries). Recently the horse got loose in the barn and kicked the the old exhaust mufflers for it, and the exhaust manifold broke. I found a NOS manifold and made my own exhaust. It used to have super loud ďpepper shakerĒ mufflers, but I got a free stainless steel muffler from my friendís exhaust shop, and fabbed up a steampunk-esque exhaust for it. Itís pretty hilarious looking. Iím hoping the unequal head tube lengths will create a scavenging effect, there by giving it 5 extra JDM horsepower.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:14 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
That retro pipe just goes with the look. Like it.

The pipe will look like a "pig in a blanket" with that tape on but will reduce the burn for you and anyone that might happen to want a ride.

Why not put the Alpha kit on?
Thank you for the compliment Jack. And that's spot on with the pin in a blanket comment. I had to laugh at that one! I suppose i could also just wrap that fiberglass cloth around my bare leg instead. It would definitely be easier than wrapping it around that pipe...cause that pipe does get really hot, even through a pair of jeans. I can't imagine shorts and flipflops. If i went that route, i'd probably need to get a good set of tweezers to put in my glovebox tool kit...in order to pluck out all the fiberglass shards that are stuck in my skin.

About me and tuning kits...in the past i've had a few various kits on different scooters; the old cast iron Polini 208, Jet200 TS1 240, Serveta BGM RT225, HRS 200 Alpha kit. The kits were fun, but they never had the reliability of a stock 200 top end. And it wasn't just the top end per-say...it's what the top end would do to the bottom end of the transmissions. I still have a few tuned scooters, but i find that they aren't ideal for the type of riding that i do. Most of it it commuting on the highway, so if i go out to the city and back, i'm usually logging in 60 to 80 miles. That kind of miles adds up to LOTS of wear and tear on the whole engine. I found that i had way less maintenance with a stock top end. Plus i got to keep my autolube. I still have my T5 172 track bike, and one of my Lammy's engine is currently under the knife waiting for a 5 speed and a reeded 225 Mugello (and if i like the Mugello my other Lammy will probably getting the same kit as well). I will probably also be kitting my PK125 this summer with a Parmakit (using one of their more mild touring based kits). So that's kinda my tuning experience story. I have more reasons why, such as when i was racing scooters for about 5 years, the guys i was racing with were always having either carb, clutch, transmission, or piston issues. Same thing when at rally's. The tuned scooters (if not tuned correctly) would seems to get a ride back to town in the "sag wagon".

So, yes i still have a cast iron Polini 208 and a HRS Alpha kit on my shelf. The exhaust port (from what i remember, and that was about 12 years ago!) was a bit on the wide side for day to day commuting, logging thousands of miles. I now just like just slapping on a 24/24 carb on stock 200 and just go. There's no thinking involved on my part for that setup!

So if a guy knows how to correctly tune in a kitted scooter (and add in all the expensive ancillary item too) to make it super reliable, then i'm 100% for it. I just get bummed when i see others get holes in pistons and other broken transmission bits. If they know it's all part of the game, then i don't feel as bad. But i do feel bad for the newcomers who don't have the knowledge to make them reliable.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2134
Location: London UK
Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:01 am quote
The tape fibres will be easier to manage than the burns.

To tune or not to tune? Is a big question but tune doesn't have to mean tune for racing. Could be tuned for commuting. I appreciate there are a lot of people in the same situation that like the standard to 200 as it is. If it is fast enough for your needs then why touch it. For me the main issue was always the slowing down uphill or into the wind, especially when 2 up or with heavy luggage.

Stock but tuned enough to not slow down on hills and keep up with traffic was the goal with my PX200. Mine just has a SIP road II, 26/26 with VRX, sport Cosa clutch and a 68mm piston, with stock iron cylinder tuned like my version of Al's Alpha and stock head re-profiled. Now does 70mph uphill into the wind. Can't remember how many years ago since I last split it but its been a few....and done about 10,000 miles since (I have a lot of bikes and like to ride them all). Road tuning doesn't mean un-reliable. Bad jetting is the usual suspect. When tuned it's really difficult to get SI jetting right, but get it right, change gear well, treat it with respect and road tuned is just like stock but can go faster if you want it to.

Riding a pink PK making that kind of noise, it needs to be faster.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:45 pm quote
So I havenít done really anything to the Pk (including riding or final jetting) for a few months...or so. One reason is because the suspension is so doggone stiff! It feels like the both the front and rear end skips over bumps. I had a few spare hours today, so I decided to do something about it.

The current shock thatís on there is a ďloweredĒ Bitubo, and the front fork is a 16mm P fork. The lowered shock is real stiff. Also since itís lowered it flattens out the angle of the forkís trailing arm by quite a few degrees.
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:51 pm quote
And the pic of the Bitubo...

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:02 pm quote
I grabbed a small handful of shocks off my shelf (whatever I could fit in my two hands), and I started messing around with the springs. I happen to find another spring that would work (the longer of the two red springs thatís next to the Bitubo). It has a much softer spring rate. I then decided to bring the forkís trailing arm back into factory specs. My plan was to cut far enough through the weld just far enough to reach the ďslugĒ portion of the lower pivot eyelet.

I first took a carbide scribe and make a long straight mark down the fork leg. I then took a cut off wheel and went at it.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:03 pm quote
I took a plastic mallet and gave the lower trailing arm a few good wacks, and off it came!

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:08 pm quote
The math told me that I needed to remove 1-3/4Ē from the length of the fork. That may sound like a lot, but remember, I have a long P fork instead of a PKXL fork stuffed in the front of the scooter. The lowered Bitubo shock is pretty close to the same length at a stock PKXL shock.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:10 pm quote
I noticed that the current wheel spindle that was in the fork was pitted where the wheel bearings ride. I found a decent spare spindle on the shelf, so I pressed the old one out.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:12 pm quote
A little bit of sleeve retainer on the spare spindle, and I pressed it back in.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:19 pm quote
Itís a very tight fit, so the slug had to be pounded back into the fork leg! I eyeballed with a speed square to see if everything is lining up (I have a VERY good eye since Iíve been a finish carpenter for many years)...and everything was lining up just great! I lined up my scribe mark that I made earlier with a few taps of the plastic mallet.

Notice how I chamfered the tube? It will allow the weld to penetrate better.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:24 pm quote
At this point is where you want to be 100% with your welding skills. I wouldnít recommend trying it with a small 110v welder (though it could be done). A larger 220v welder will get excellent penetration into the thick walled fork tube. I did four quick tack welds around the perimeter of the fork, then I went after it!

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:31 pm quote
Hereís a side by side pic of how the lowered fork compares to an uncut one. Notice how I also welded up the lower hole that the front brake cable went through? Since I have a hydraulic disc, I had no need for that hole. Another thing that you canít see (except for the short remnant of the fork leg) is that I drilled a small 1/8Ē drain hole through the back of the fork, just above that slug. When water gets in the fork (which it can very easily), itís good to have a way to let it drain back out.

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Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 2179
Location: Staten Island, NY
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:36 pm quote
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:37 pm quote
I canít wait to test out the new shock spring, but I want to install new wheel and caliper carrier bearings in there first. Plus it will give the (rattle can) black paint some time to harden up before I install everything. And I did end up painting the red Bitubo stuff black. The red wasnít doing anything for me, and the color didnít match anytime the scooter...so good riddance to that red! Iíll also need to do something about the stiff rear shock. I can remove it from the scooter until I get the front end back together though, so it might be a few more weeks (waiting for SIP parts) before I make anymore progress.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 1962
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:59 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I should start carrying a spare helmet with me now...you know, just in case someone else needs a ride.
I keep trying to picture the position required to ride pillion. Would require a lady flexible enough to simultaneously have her butt on the seat and her feet on the top of the side bubbles. I like the image!😁

Also, vanity plate; PEPTO
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:52 am quote
scootermarc69 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
I should start carrying a spare helmet with me now...you know, just in case someone else needs a ride.
I keep trying to picture the position required to ride pillion. Would require a lady flexible enough to simultaneously have her butt on the seat and her feet on the top of the side bubbles. I like the image!😁

Also, vanity plate; PEPTO
A qick gleen of when i first read the sentence...Lady, flexible, butt, seat, side bubbles, vanity, and Pepto. All combined together make a great combo. I dunno just how the Pepto will fit int the fix, but i'm sure through some creativity it could work.
Ossessionato
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Posts: 2521

Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:57 pm quote
Since the fork was already under the knife, I really wanted to bump out my fork stops a bit more. With Version 1, the scooter could turn REALLY sharp! Good for gymkhanaís, bad for the scooterís cables and wire harness life. I was very concerned that eventually my wire harness could get prematurely damaged from the handlebars being able to turn so sharply. Having the forks out was the perfect opportunity to rectify the situation.

I ended up tack welding a small piece of 1/4Ē thick plate to both sides of the forkís steering block stop. Iím the picture itís still kinda rough looking. After I figured out exactly how it was supposed to be shaped, I hit it with a sander and a scotchbright disc.

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Ossessionato
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Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:02 pm quote
And since I moved the steering stops in, it meant that the steering column lock wouldnít work anymore with some additional work. I ended up turning the handlebars full lock, I stuck a 90 degree scribe down the ignition lock hole. I made a mark on the fork where I needed to grind the notch into it.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:05 pm quote
The notch needed to be opened up about an additional 3/16Ē. The final mock-up showed that I got my measurements right. Itís always good to have a column lock!

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7661
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:01 am quote
Nice work on the fork WDC. That's exactly how they do the 'conversion' forks from SIP (except that they say it's not welded if you ask them directly). You can tell because the welding is not as tidy as Piaggios - or yours for that matter!
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:41 pm quote
Well, it was amateur hour in my shop a few days ago. There was a little bit of gnashing of my teeth so the dog came over to see what was going on.

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Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:46 pm quote
It turns out that I shortened the fork to the exact same length as a PK fork...which is great if I was using a PK shock. But Iím using a shortened PX shock. Its length is about halfway between a PX and a PK shock. The dog saw pretty quickly what had happened so he turned tail and made a quick exit. So now I had to figure out plan B...

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Ossessionato
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Posts: 2521

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:00 pm quote
One option was to grab another 16mm P fork off the shelf, but since I have lots of time invested into this fork already (column lock, steering stops, machined bearing spacers, etc), I decided to just sleeve this fork instead. It wonít make it any weaker, but it will make me look like an amateur. Did I mention Iím a carpenter and all I deal with everyday is measurements?

So I found a length of 7/8Ē diameter solid rod in my shop. I cut a piece off that was about 4Ē long. The I.D. Of the 16mm fork tube is a little smaller than 7/8Ē. I used a shop press and pressed the sleeve into the fork. I then cut about a 1/2Ē long piece of the extra piece of 16mm fork that I cut out a few days ago. I slipped that over the sleeve. I then pressed the sleeve into the upper portion of the fork. I left about 3/16Ē space between all those pieces so that the weld could fill it up. Also I had pre-drilled four holes to be plug welded. Thereís some serious overkill going on there.

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Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 1428
Location: california
Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:07 pm quote
LMAO.
Dog is a classic.
Tks.

Such nice work on this one.
I took out an inch from my already SIP shortened one for similar reasons.
Didn't have my welding mojo going at that time - so found someone who did.
Guy who did it has been welding for 40 years - insisted on removing the lug rather than doing it like SIP and scooter & Service - cutting and using internal sleeve. Same as you. Not as clean!

Great pic of the lug - shows just how much overlap exists. Careful grinding job to remove it leaves a much cleaner Job. Taper cut you made is perfect for great penetration and clean flat weld.
You're welding oh this one is spectacular how-to on shortening a fork.

-CM

Edit - timing.

Last edited by charlieman22 on Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2521

Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:08 pm quote
Hereís the fork after it was sanded down. I figure itís only fair if I post up my mistakes and failures in this project. It didnít take long to redo the fork, but I just didnít like the fact that I screwed up on measuring the PK shock instead of the lowered PX shock. Iím guessing that it might have something to do with being sidetracked with 3 other projects in the shop at the same time!

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