Smallframe with a P200 engine?
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Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 267
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:28 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
If i were to invest that much money, i'd rather throw it at my Lammy so i can bang through a 5 speed gearbox.
You aren't restricted to Lambretta with that.

http://www.duepercento.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=93&products_id=1905

Not that I have or ever will have one. I've never spent that much money on complete scooters.
Hooked
Jet 200, P200E (x2), T5
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Posts: 330
Location: Paris, France & L.A., Cal, USA
Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:30 am quote
One thing to bear in mind in your considerations: PK frames are MUCH stiffer than earlier small frames, which means such a conversion won't be as bendy as it would on a primavera, for instance.
Hooked
1964 v90, 1970 VBC, lots of dumb twist n go toys
Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Posts: 220
Location: savannh, ga
Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:32 am quote
Is it your bike? Do you have a welder, grinder, and imagination? Make it happen!!!!
Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 267
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:05 pm quote
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
The feedback I've seen that's the most negative is on small frame forums.
Yes, to an extent it will be but mostly they're not Snobs at all owning a wide variety of machines. Problem being we've seen quite a number of these "improvements" with varying degrees of success, mainly bad.
It's your own machine, do as you feel fit.

Back in the 80's it was simple, chop up a frame and an engine case a shoehorn it in. Wasn't a whole lot of choice back then unless you were Italian and had a decent understanding of science and the basics of tuning.

Now there's more choice, and although costly, little need to go down that road.

But again as said, your bike, your money, your choice. Agreed there's little out there that'll take the punishment that a standard P2 will in 2 stroke form but if possible I'd try to ride a similar conversion before deciding this will be a bike you'd do loads of miles on in one hit.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
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Posts: 3819
Location: Millbin, Ostrayleea, mate
Tue Feb 07, 2017 2:15 pm quote
"We can handle a little well mannered controversy, right?"
...
Well, Monit survived here after stripping his scoot! Which he recently sold!
Sergeant at Arms
Weird 80's Vespas & Cool Vintage Lambrettas
Joined: 21 Oct 2005
Posts: 7288
Location: The state of insanity, SoCal
Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:53 pm quote
TR wrote:
It is a V5A4M...It is missing the rear hub...

I bought it with a bunch of other stuff, I do not know the condition or history, but it is clean and has a Polini kit on it.

I am in Northern Calif, light enough to be shipped.

I also have a Rally motor and a V9A1M if Greasy needs to add to the shelving!
hmmm... i do like collecting things and i just happen to have some empty shelf space... hmmmm...

PM me man. lets see if we can make something happen...

-g
Molto Verboso
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Santa Margarita,Ca.
Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:09 pm quote
I did one once. '87 I scored a unmolested P125 that had rear ended a cargo truck and lost. Folded the frame. I added the fork and engine to a cutdown 50 with a peanut tank and support bar between the legs. Extra long shock bolt to lift up the rear to match the front. Quick action throttle, knobbies and vinyl wrapped plywood for a seat. I think it was so fast because the seat dropped you down so low compared to a stock P riding position. Fun, Interesting. I remember using a jack and a sledge hammer to spread the frame to accommodate the engine. I'd do it again too. It's not gonna handle as sweet as a smally but it won't handle as crap as a lardy either.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:19 pm quote
scootermarc69 wrote:
I did one once. '87 I scored a unmolested P125 that had rear ended a cargo truck and lost. Folded the frame. I added the fork and engine to a cutdown 50 with a peanut tank and support bar between the legs. Extra long shock bolt to lift up the rear to match the front. Quick action throttle, knobbies and vinyl wrapped plywood for a seat. I think it was so fast because the seat dropped you down so low compared to a stock P riding position. Fun, Interesting. I remember using a jack and a sledge hammer to spread the frame to accommodate the engine. I'd do it again too. It's not gonna handle as sweet as a smally but it won't handle as crap as a lardy either.
Hmmm...I was thinking about going that exact same route! Maybe i'll even add a wide tire kit on the front and rear while I'm operating on it?
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 988
Location: seattle, wa
Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:44 am quote
I cant wait to see pics of this scoot when it gets going ...Hope u make a thread here for the build. To me seems like a fine idea btw!!!
Lurker
P2/T5
Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Kent
Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:00 pm quote
Did a Pk/T5 one years ago,it was quite hard keeping the front end on the tarmac. Great fun to ride.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:06 pm quote
fozzy wrote:
Did a Pk/T5 one years ago,it was quite hard keeping the front end on the tarmac. Great fun to ride.
It's looks kinda like a "Square Tail" smallframe.
That looks like a 16mm fork and headset both from a early P. If so, what needed to be done to the fork to get the steering head bearings and the treads on the fork to match up?
Lurker
P2/T5
Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 2
Location: Kent
Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:59 am quote
Got the frame as is,just put the engine in.I think you need to cut a section out (not sure of the measurements) and reweld it with a sleeve inside to strengthen it.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:56 pm quote
I don't know if it's possible to link two threads together to make one, so here's the link to the other thread that I created for this project that I finally started up last week. The linked thread was me trying to figure out how to install a 16mm Grimeca disc brake in PK 50. P fork and headset on a PK


...well here are some of my findings.

The largeframe P fork is 12mm longer than the PK (where the upper and lower bearing races are seated) on the frame. So in order to fit the 16mm P fork in the PK frame, a 12mm spacer needed to be fitted under the lower fork bearing race. I didn't have the right size DOM tubing, so a Dana 44 steering spindle from the front axle of a International Travelall donated the perfect size of tube that I needed to make the 12mm long spacer.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:01 pm quote
Side by side pic of two P forks. The upper fork has the 12mm thick spacer pressed on the fork.

7D3C32C3-3FEE-476C-B378-D0136B311162.jpeg



Last edited by whodatschrome on Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:04 pm quote
Had to make that thin extension sleeve to provide support for the lower bearing race.

65261988-B377-49F4-A067-96E6E0F366A4.jpeg



Last edited by whodatschrome on Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:06 pm quote
Spacer pressed on, lower dust shield installed, sleeve pressed on, and the lower bearing race pressed on as well.

BAB693F6-F984-46B4-85B5-B63943EBB3C3.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:30 pm quote
And here it is with the fork installed.

24D89372-BEB7-41DE-A01A-72B90B56630A.jpeg

Addicted
SS180, V90, Lambrettas, RD's and a K1300s and an RZ500
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Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:25 am quote
That is sketchy moving the lower race like that. Much better to make a hollow plug and then shorten the main tube a couple of inches below the threads and insert plug and weld...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:15 am quote
TR wrote:
That is sketchy moving the lower race like that. Much better to make a hollow plug and then shorten the main tube a couple of inches below the threads and insert plug and weld...
I could have done that as well, but I would only have needed to shorten the main tube about a 1/2" (not a couple inches) to get the right amount of space needed above the upper fork bearing assembly to clamp on the P headset.

What makes it so sketchy moving that lower race up a 1/2"?

Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it.
Addicted
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Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:18 am quote
Sorry, poor writing late at night...what I should have written:

Shorten the fork the needed amount a couple of inches below the threads...

The lower race is where all of the forces are transmitted from the fork to the frame. That is why Piaggio has a substantial press on the race with generous mating surfaces both for the base and cylindrical portions of the race. Without that support the harder race will begin to cut into the fork tube...

Another non-welding method would be to take the threads off of an upper collar, engage with bearings, make a spacer and then get an extra flat nut... This leaves the headset a bit higher but is much safer...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:19 am quote
TR wrote:
The lower race is where all of the forces are transmitted from the fork to the frame. That is why Piaggio has a substantial press on the race with generous mating surfaces both for the base and cylindrical portions of the race. Without that support the harder race will begin to cut into the fork tube...

Unless i'm not seeing something, i believe that i have accounted for that (the thin sleeve can be seen in the 2nd and 3rd pic). That 1/2" high spacer has a 1/4" wall thickness (which is just about the same as the bottom portion of the lower bearing race). I also had to make a thin sleeve to slip over the fork tube. That provided the support for the upper 2/3rds portion of the race. Without that sleeve, there wouldn't be much of any support for the lower race, then over time, there would most likely be some sloppy movement as the race could/would cut into the fork.
Addicted
SS180, V90, Lambrettas, RD's and a K1300s and an RZ500
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Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:47 am quote
You have put spacers in to take up the space, but that is not the same fit as machined surfaces...
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:14 am quote
TR wrote:
You have put spacers in to take up the space, but that is not the same fit as machined surfaces...
Gotcha
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:13 pm quote
I did LOTS of measuring and mocked up a P200 engine a couple days ago.

884FD3B4-68FD-49DF-8869-425721C1AAA8.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:15 pm quote
And then yesterday I went past the point of no return.

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Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:34 pm quote
And today I spend quite a while building a bracket that relocates the rear shock vertically above the lower engine shock mount. From what I understand, some people will just reuse the existing shock mount hole in the PK frame. I decided to not go that route because it would put quite a bit of strain on the shocks piston rod.

I made the bracket out of .120 wall 1x2 314 stainless steel. I would have loved to use my buddys TIG welder, but hes out of the country (hes visiting St. Ives England) for the next 2 weeks. I had to weld using my wire feed spool gun. The welds came out horrible. For some reason I have a VERY difficult time welding stainless with my spool gun. Welding stainless with the TIG machine is about 50 times easier for me...and prettier too.

The bracket can be unbolted, so at any point a Smallframe engine could very easily be reinstalled.

7091AEBE-10CF-4909-B4DA-E0D1CB992D2F.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1742

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:38 pm quote
Since the overall height of the bracket is high enough, I dont need to use the that long shock extension spacer bolt.

704B1DCB-9FA0-4D74-9ABE-85429F28947B.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:36 am quote
I made some more progress today. Since Im using a standard drum brake P lower headset, I needed a place to mount the hydraulic brake master cylinder. I started by cutting the old brake lever perch off.

EC23139A-86E9-4853-9305-1D18809C355E.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1742

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:41 am quote
I cut a mounting bracket out of a piece of 3/8 thick 6061 aluminum angle.

209B22C1-0150-4F26-B28D-A07608738E27.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:44 am quote
Another pic.

989A9B39-8932-447F-856E-FB60C0C95EC9.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:49 am quote
All welded up using the spool gun with 4043 alloy.

9805A444-CBB6-4B47-B161-E1D9E137950C.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:51 am quote
Another view.

F4D64FE1-DDA8-411B-BCED-632127059D2C.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1742

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:54 am quote
After some grinding,sanding, drilling, and tapping.

F8E344EE-1EC3-4C27-BB57-401AB4FF4D42.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:57 am quote
Theres some porosity in the welds, but its nothing that Im going to fret about.

D4283F0A-27AF-4EC6-9319-07DA92501004.jpeg

Molto Verboso
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Posts: 1742

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:05 am quote
If you look close, you can see that I made the flat part of the bracket (where the m/c is mounted) angle down quite a bit compared to the stock headset. I dont like the angle that Piaggio puts the m/c.

16BA6A07-2AD4-4A56-A348-5E52D3669D93.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
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Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:44 am quote
Wow, you were busy today. Good looking welds, great design and smart choice of materials. Well done!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:22 pm quote
Nice work!

If the issue was that the top part of the fork was too long, could you have continued the thread down lower? Then cut some off the top? A mate did that on an auto fork to fit into an earlier smallie.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1742

Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:15 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Nice work!

If the issue was that the top part of the fork was too long, could you have continued the thread down lower? Then cut some off the top? A mate did that on an auto fork to fit into an earlier smallie.
Yes, that was the issue. I figured that the thread pitch is proprietary and that i couldn't replicate it. The good part about the spacer is, that it give the fork's upper shock mount more distance from the frame (when turning the bars lock-to-lock). When i first mocked it up without the spacer, the top of the shock bracket was hitting the frame some.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7051
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Nice work!

If the issue was that the top part of the fork was too long, could you have continued the thread down lower? Then cut some off the top? A mate did that on an auto fork to fit into an earlier smallie.
Yes, that was the issue. I figured that the thread pitch is proprietary and that i couldn't replicate it. The good part about the spacer is, that it give the fork's upper shock mount more distance from the frame (when turning the bars lock-to-lock). When i first mocked it up without the spacer, the top of the shock bracket was hitting the frame some.
It's not a proprietary thread, I could ask him for you but it sounds like you're well under way. He had to grind down the diameter a little as well.
https://vespa50srebuild.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/lx-fork-fitting/
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:23 am quote
Looking like a quality build despite the colour I assume you will not be using it. Engine just stock?
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