Smallframe with a P200 engine?
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous12345678Next
Author Message
Hooked
1966 Sprint 150 & px200 and a shed full o shit
Joined: 15 Aug 2016
Posts: 114
Location: New Zealand
Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:45 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
lucifermonkey wrote:
Don't do it. /end thread


Seriously tho, if you must go through with it, widen the PK frame, don't cut the P200 motor.

I'm in totally agreement on not cutting the motor.
Why not have a play with 8inch wheels while you at it? Lowrider.

Good luck. Nice to see sommit different and old bits just lying around getting put to use.

Cheerio
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:15 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Looking like a quality build despite the colour I assume you will not be using it. Engine just stock?
No doubt that that colour is a fugly! I definitely will NOT be repainting it. Whoever painted it pink (it wasn't me), actually did a fairly decent job. I think that the color just kind of adds to the whole "messed up build" that i have going on.

The 200 engine/carb is all stock more or less. I have upgraded lots of stuff in it though. It has a full EFL transmission, DRT cross, Cosa clutch, G.S. piston, E-start PX flywheel (much lighter weight than the US market P flywheel), matched the cylinder ports to the cases, flowed the carb to the case, the crank is stock, but when i had it rebuilt, i polished the con-rod and crank webs. It was an engine that i used for stock class racing so i had to keep everything in it race legal. It had been sitting on the shelf for a couple years, and i wanted to do something with it.
Hooked
50 N
Joined: 20 Dec 2015
Posts: 267
Location: North Aberdeenshire
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:44 pm quote
TBH I thought it was red and just the camera flash fucking things up. Given it is actually pink I think I'd do a design based around awful lairy 80's Trainers.

It needs something to break it up.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:39 pm quote
PC73 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
lucifermonkey wrote:
Don't do it. /end thread


Seriously tho, if you must go through with it, widen the PK frame, don't cut the P200 motor.

I'm in totally agreement on not cutting the motor.
Why not have a play with 8inch wheels while you at it? Lowrider.

Good luck. Nice to see sommit different and old bits just lying around getting put to use.

Cheerio
Even though i said that i didn't want to cut the swingarm on the engine, i did. I figure that i can always weld that piece back on.

8'' would definitely be cool as well. But since i'm building this out of the random (spare-ish) parts that i already have hanging around my shop, i'll be using larger diameter rims. Plus i want the higher ground clearance that the larger rims will provide for me..and i have a 11" SIP 3" wide tubeless rim that's been gathering dust for the past couple years.

Thank you for the luck! Most all of the parts are fairly high quality, but they have just been unused for some time. I have a few different other kind of projects going on in the shop as well and I figure if i didn't start on this one now, nothing would happen ever with it.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:53 pm quote
3” wide tubeless.

2B5C39C0-C4AE-480D-91B0-CDD7C316FBD0.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6952
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:56 pm quote
What size tyres do they take?
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:12 pm quote
Juan Kerr wrote:
TBH I thought it was red and just the camera flash fucking things up. Given it is actually pink I think I'd do a design based around awful lairy 80's Trainers.

It needs something to break it up.
Trainers huh? The closest thing I have are a pair of Cortez.

BE458F9C-591A-4BC3-B596-E122A3E5D74C.jpeg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1363
Location: London UK
Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:55 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
The 200 engine/carb is all stock more or less. I have upgraded lots of stuff in it though. It has a full EFL transmission, DRT cross, Cosa clutch, G.S. piston, E-start PX flywheel (much lighter weight than the US market P flywheel), matched the cylinder ports to the cases, flowed the carb to the case, the crank is stock, but when i had it rebuilt, i polished the con-rod and crank webs. It was an engine that i used for stock class racing so i had to keep everything in it race legal. It had been sitting on the shelf for a couple years, and i wanted to do something with it.
This is what everyone should do to a stock 200 now there are no rules for this motor, a little enhancement wouldn't hurt. It's possible to raise the barrel up to 3.00 mm and still pull 4th . I wouldn't do so much in a PK frame, as it will be scary but a pink scooter is going to need to be able to outrun the bullies would need to either mill off the top fin from the cylinder or recess the head inside the barrel to get a good squish though.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:59 am quote
Ginch wrote:
What size tyres do they take?
Tire size is the same as the front from an ET4, 110/70-11. 120 and a 130/70-11 are available as well, but I might have to grind/sand down some of the swingarm for them to fit. I’ll see how close of a fit the 110 size is for now. If it turns out that I have plenty of room for a larger diameter tire, I might mount it up. At one point I had a huge 130/90-10 Conti Twist rear tire on a p215, and even with grinding down some of the swingarm, it was still a close fit.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:00 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
whodatschrome wrote:
The 200 engine/carb is all stock more or less. I have upgraded lots of stuff in it though. It has a full EFL transmission, DRT cross, Cosa clutch, G.S. piston, E-start PX flywheel (much lighter weight than the US market P flywheel), matched the cylinder ports to the cases, flowed the carb to the case, the crank is stock, but when i had it rebuilt, i polished the con-rod and crank webs. It was an engine that i used for stock class racing so i had to keep everything in it race legal. It had been sitting on the shelf for a couple years, and i wanted to do something with it.
This is what everyone should do to a stock 200 now there are no rules for this motor, a little enhancement wouldn't hurt. It's possible to raise the barrel up to 3.00 mm and still pull 4th . I wouldn't do so much in a PK frame, as it will be scary but a pink scooter is going to need to be able to outrun the bullies would need to either mill off the top fin from the cylinder or recess the head inside the barrel to get a good squish though.
Will i still benefit from those cylinder mods even if the scoot is used for highway commuting? 90% of the time i'm commuting at about 60mph on the highway for about a 30+ mile stretch. I see lots of headwinds and hills. The stock P2 engine has been fine for that, but of course we all want "just a little more". What should i expect from those engine mods that you recommended?

Would the ports in the cylinder or piston need to be enlarged at all, or can a 3mm base plate under the cylinder simply be enough? (and adjust squish of course)
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1363
Location: London UK
Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:36 am quote
Riding along at 60mph an average 200 is already revving near the top of it's stock powerband. Raising the barrel moves the powerband higher but also makes it bigger. Raising the barrel without cutting the exhaust port, also reduces the blowdown, which limits max power.

The balance between the two gives a maximum that can be raised without any barrel port grinding, which is 3.00 mm (2.00 mm might be where to start and see how it goes for your needs).

The squish clearance should be kept no bigger than the stock 2.20 mm. Having a head recessed into the barrel is the easiest way and just trim with head gaskets until you find the best balance for you. With a tight squish on the stock head the compression will be way over, and will need a few cc taken out of the bowl. With the stock massive squish compression is as good as it was.

On my O tuned 200 I moved all the ports, re-shaped and re-directed everything and spent way longer than any sane person should spend grinding out a stock iron 200 barrel but it goes like a touring tuned kit and somewhere near to 20bhp. A total sleeper and very happy with it.

Making more power is revving higher too, so the timing will need to be retarded two degrees from the stock 23 or get something variable.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:06 pm quote
I got a few more things accomplished on the frame today after work. I made some floorboards out of some remnant 1/8” aluminum diamond plate that I had in my shop. There were LOTS of flying bits of metal everywhere!

612C86F8-4C50-4207-BA85-020CE8F2706E.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:08 pm quote
I was using a carbide “finish blade” on my table saw...along with wd40 as a lubricant.

249A34EB-E1A2-4287-99D2-385496D160F3.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:11 pm quote
Everything was covered in aluminum after I had finished cutting.

B46CC0CF-ACC9-4BB5-8F04-5E6AA5B1CAFB.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:14 pm quote
Top view.

C9F1EADB-41EC-4178-BD69-B35D1C915A27.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:19 pm quote
About 2 minutes with a rubber mallet gave me the perfect contour to lower part of the legshield. Tomorrow I’ll get some fasteners from the hardware store so that I can bolt them down.

Over the years, this is the 4th set I’ve made, so it takes me about a hour to make them. It adds LOTS of structural rigidity to the floorboards.

F4F11881-C056-49D6-B2DC-48F2455D7FF3.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:27 pm quote
Also, in honor of the legendary T5 (who’s birthday is coming up in 21 days from now. (March 28th 1985)). I converted my P rear brake cable over to a T5 brake cable. It’s a VERY clean design, and it makes it VERY easy to adjust the rear brakes.

B6514299-47C3-49B0-BAA1-0F20FDE34017.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:29 pm quote
The foot brake lever had to be notched in order for the cable to fit.

D5928426-8B23-489E-8927-230DC57E6ED4.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:35 pm quote
The threads need to be drilled out of the cable holder because the cable housing will now slide into it (instead of using the original threaded adjuster).

Converting over to this style of adjuster also makes it easier/faster to remove the rear brake cable when removing the engine from the frame.

8A54A934-A725-4BD5-953D-7843C4FF1973.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:54 pm quote
I was going to install the aluminum floor plates today, but There was some bubbling in the paint on the floorboards that I figured I should investigate further...

79DF3C16-9ECD-4564-808B-81662CE12A36.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 pm quote
...and sure enough, rust. To do it correctly, I should have replaced the whole floor, but that would mean a completely new paint job. I didn’t want to go there, so I decided to make some patch panels instead.

Also, on the right side floorboard, someone at some point did a “repair”. By repair, I mean that they had covered up a large rust hole with a piece of sheetmetal, then took a gob of body filler and did a “Texas spread” over the whole floorboard! They didn’t even bother to weld in the piece...come on, who does that?





Yes, that piece in my hand was more or less semi-glued into the floor.

56DFD32E-7A7B-4EC2-A911-0C5D363008A3.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:09 pm quote
Anyhow, I took a wire wheel to the rust, then poured on some Ospho acid etch, and then wired brushed it for a few minutes. I waited about an hour, then repeated the process over again. It came out fairly clean. I’ll let the Ospho dry over night before I weld the patch panels in.

8AC2CD24-07C0-4242-B34E-00EDED301DFB.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:13 pm quote
I’ll spray the metal with a “weld-though primer” before I start the welding process.





...and no, I wasn't the one who cut the rhombus shaped ghetto hole in the floorboard.

02EF3795-3D67-46DF-B441-8439DE042757.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5437
Location: Indo
Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:26 pm quote
hey yeah.. keep the pics coming its gonna be a cool bike
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 6999
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:45 pm quote
I like the rear brake cable conversion. Later PK's had the same style and I have it on the PK fork in my Greek smallie. So easy to adjust! Now I need to do the rear as well.

Looking good on the floor patches so far, waiting for weld pics. Déjà vu and fond memories.... it'll come out fine.
Dunno about you keeping the front tire on the pavement so you can steer w/ that big motor in there though.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:26 am quote
V oodoo wrote:
I like the rear brake cable conversion. Later PK's had the same style and I have it on the PK fork in my Greek smallie. So easy to adjust! Now I need to do the rear as well.

Looking good on the floor patches so far, waiting for weld pics. Déjà vu and fond memories.... it'll come out fine.
Dunno about you keeping the front tire on the pavement so you can steer w/ that big motor in there though.
Yes, it’ very handy to have that easy to adjust brake cable! Not only did the PK have one on the front drum brake, so did the T5.

The only bad thing about the T5 rear brake cable conversion is, that SIP is out of stock on the “barrel” and the “barrel adjuster”...and it looks like none will be made any time soon (SIP has a T5 brake cable conversion kit will all the parts needed, but that’s been out of stock for a couple years now).
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:28 am quote
I got some welding done yesterday evening.

DF680472-857C-4EB3-8464-39491DC0CECD.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:31 am quote
I masked off the pink paint because I’m hoping to preserve the current paint that’s on it.

6D06A643-481F-4FB6-B620-E173AB8B4DDA.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:35 am quote
I also mounted up a 110/70-11” tire on the SIP tubeless rim. Even though the tire wasn’t too warm (about 70 degrees American), and it’s a low profile tire, it was fairly easy to mount. Much easier than a 3.5x10 tire.

83B57B94-6256-4432-910B-F826368E33E3.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:39 am quote
The 11” wide tire is actually about a 1/2” shorter height when compared to a 3x10. I might have to get a taller tire.

C8AF240E-D36A-4507-8659-3F4C55C3617E.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:41 am quote
What it looks like from the rear.

008FC2EB-90CC-4756-BE5C-B3B651224647.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:45 pm quote
I’m going to have to find a different machine shop that I’ve currently been using if I decide to go that route. My guy can only turn down the “center fire” cylinder heads (he only has a very small shop). It would sure be nice to do a recessed head compared to just lowering the height of the cylinder.
Jack221 wrote:
Riding along at 60mph an average 200 is already revving near the top of it's stock powerband. Raising the barrel moves the powerband higher but also makes it bigger. Raising the barrel without cutting the exhaust port, also reduces the blowdown, which limits max power.

The balance between the two gives a maximum that can be raised without any barrel port grinding, which is 3.00 mm (2.00 mm might be where to start and see how it goes for your needs).

The squish clearance should be kept no bigger than the stock 2.20 mm. Having a head recessed into the barrel is the easiest way and just trim with head gaskets until you find the best balance for you. With a tight squish on the stock head the compression will be way over, and will need a few cc taken out of the bowl. With the stock massive squish compression is as good as it was.

On my O tuned 200 I moved all the ports, re-shaped and re-directed everything and spent way longer than any sane person should spend grinding out a stock iron 200 barrel but it goes like a touring tuned kit and somewhere near to 20bhp. A total sleeper and very happy with it.

Making more power is revving higher too, so the timing will need to be retarded two degrees from the stock 23 or get something variable.
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:53 pm quote
I had some time today to work on the PK a little bit more. I ground down the welds. I didn’t do a OCD job grinding them down because there’s so much body filler already on the floor. No use making it absolutely perfect if the rest of the scoot isn’t, plus those aluminum floor plates will cover all of the bodywork.

BC7F495B-1375-455A-A730-2B40C7D7F894.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:55 pm quote
The other side

1AAB254E-A74C-4741-9EF1-C9F82A3458DD.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:59 pm quote
I didn’t care about brush strokes, and didn’t want to deal with overspray, so I brushed on two coats of PPG DP epoxy primer (2k).

669187DD-BB14-4ADF-821A-BD44D60DE3AE.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6952
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:05 am quote
I'm enjoying watching this come together!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1363
Location: London UK
Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:49 am quote
Some good welding skills for sure. Unfortunate it doesn't need a whole respray
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:05 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Unfortunate it doesn't need a whole respray
Ha!
Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:11 pm quote
I bolted up a Garelli low fender today. The fender didn’t come even close to being centered on the tire and rim combo that I’m planning on using.

B6DD2AB6-2F02-40F4-90FF-69148F660E96.jpeg

Molto Verboso
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 1572

Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:19 pm quote
I had to cut the fender mounting bracket and reshape it a little bit. I had to remove, install, remove, bend, and repeat that process about 20 times to get it just right before rewelding the bracket.

CCC3ED0B-7993-4A7C-8BBB-439C504FC3AD.jpeg



Last edited by whodatschrome on Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Rallies Europe 2016   vespa scooterwest scooter west Motorsport Scooters   Scooter Parts Company
Post Reply    Forum -> Not-So-Modern Previous12345678Next
[ Time: 1.7568s ][ Queries: 25 (0.1633s) ][ Debug on ]