'74 Rally 200 Vespatronic wiring, with battery, turn signals
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Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:52 pm quote
I've finally had it with the femsatronic and ordered the vespatronic. I really really wanted to keep the stock flywheel but also want to ride the bike. so it goes.

In preparation I've gathered diagrams from:
'74 US Rally coversion to AC only
1974 Rally 200 - Batteryless but still 6V?

For more than 30 years I have lived in fear of 1974 US market Vespa wiring, but it's not actually that bad and I don't see the conversion being that hard at all. The most confusing part is that there are 3 different wires that head out from the battery/rectifier. One powers the headlight, taillight, and speedo bulb, the second powers the turn signals, and the third powers the horn and brakelight. But even though they come from different positions they are all powered from the battery.

OK, next figure out the Vespatronic.
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Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:11 pm quote
Hey Patrick, it is as easy as can be, you already have it sorted out. It is also really easy to run a modern cdi on the Femsa pick up and flywheel if you want to go that way. Can even run 12v lighting on the old Femsa with some simple mods...

All you need is to change all bulbs to 12v...if your horn is dc, run it off of the dc side of the regulator. Everything else can go off of either ac or dc, your choice...

I prefer to build a new harness but you can use the existing. At a minimum it is good to pull a 16g pair of wires to the headlight so you can take advantage of the power the kit puts out and run a bright headlight.
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Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:30 pm quote
Do you already have the kit in front of you? Does the 4 colors off the stator match the ones in the diagram?

image.png

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Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:52 pm quote
I take it you've already seen this?

http://vespa-klub.dk/Rally_CDI.HTM
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Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:32 am quote
MJRally wrote:
Do you already have the kit in front of you? Does the 4 colors off the stator match the ones in the diagram?
Should be delivered tomorrow.

From the diagram for the Vespatronic it looks like Yellow-White is used unregulated for AC, and the White-Red is rectified for DC. If you don't use one or the other do you leave it disconnected?

In other cases my instinct would be to make a new harness but I'm reluctant on this bike and it looks like it's not needed anyhow.
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Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:15 am quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
MJRally wrote:
Do you already have the kit in front of you? Does the 4 colors off the stator match the ones in the diagram?
Should be delivered tomorrow.

From the diagram for the Vespatronic it looks like Yellow-White is used unregulated for AC, and the White-Red is rectified for DC. If you don't use one or the other do you leave it disconnected?

In other cases my instinct would be to make a new harness but I'm reluctant on this bike and it looks like it's not needed anyhow.
If you don't use the unregulated AC I'd just let it float at the junction box where there's plenty of room and a secure terminal holder.

You shouldn't have to make a sub harness just to get that to work. You could use one of the yellow wires from the junction box to regulator (I'm assuming you have a double yellow Rally stator?) And then from there make a pigtail to combine the green, green/white, red and maybe brown?? (My memories foggy on the colors of the turn signal relay) and that's it. The supplied regulator can get tucked somewhere by the battery box.

I'm too cheap to buy the Vespatronic so let me know how it works out!
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Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:43 pm quote
I'll probably use the second yellow to run the AC over to the battery side. May run the headlight off it.

Are the two really completely independent? Seems a waste.
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Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:21 pm quote
Stator seems to be sitting too tall, keeping the flywheel from seating.

it's not the flywheel itself (lapped to the crank) or the key (lapped to fit) or the backing plate, everything clears there.

The plastic around the LT ignition coil is the first thing that contacts but not sure yet by how much. More measurements to come.

IMG_1737.png

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:12 pm quote
Curious to see what you find, have never had a clearance or fitment issue with Vespatronic...
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Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:40 pm quote
Put the flywheel on and measured the gap between it and the case where the stator seats, 10mm.

Put the stator and flywheel on the surface plate with the flywheel touching the plastic coil guides and there is 12mm from the face of the stator to the flywheel.

So the stator needs to sit at least 2mm lower, 3mm for a bit of clearance. Resolved in a lathe this afternoon.

IMG_1741.png

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Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:11 am quote
and since one modification triggers more, had to take .5mm off the other leg of the stator and put a cutout for the solder blob.

IMG_1744.png
plastic bit needs .5mm more clearance, solder blob needs a bit too

IMG_1742.png
that came out better than I expected my mill to do

IMG_1747.png
all better

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Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:26 pm quote
Nice work, so much cleaner than rotary tool/file adjustments!

Still surprised it did not fit out of the box!
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Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:36 am quote
I'd expected it to just fit as well, but then no other scooter parts seem to just fit so not sure why I'd expect that.

Need to make a mounting bracket for the coil. going to place it in the standard rally position. Given it's a lot lighter I'll make the bracket from aluminum.

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 10.30.49 .png

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Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:37 pm quote
I really need a small press brake. The bracket came out ok, not great, but it will work for now.

IMG_1749.png

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Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:25 pm quote
Bracket looks like it came out perfect! Nice job.
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Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:44 pm quote
thanks, but I picked an angle where it looked the best and didn't show my hammer marks, scratches, uneven legs, and the washers hide the mess I made of the holes.

Then I went and searched for vise brakes, then decided a small arbor press would be better, then found and bought a really cool arbor press that will be too small for this, but couldn't pass up.

So, in the end I got a working bracket and more tools on the way.

s-l1600.png
the cool press I picked up

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Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:38 pm quote
Flywheel is fitted and roughly timed to ~25 BTDC at idle. Was having some float issues and dumping fuel, new float fixed it. Junction box at engine all wired and starting in on the battery side.

As I want this to be reversible and this bike has not been mucked with too much, I'm mapping out the stock wiring first.

Screen Shot 2017-04-10 at 13.36.00 .png
stock regulator wiring
1974 Rally 200, US market

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Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:45 pm quote
Stator is wired to allow for AC or DC setup.

Screen Shot 2017-04-10 at 15.00.28 .png
Stator supports AC or DC

Screen Shot 2017-04-10 at 14.05.17 .png
DC regulator wiring

Screen Shot 2017-04-10 at 15.27.25 .png
AC regulator wiring

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Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:01 pm quote
Made a small cover to tidy up the patch wires and the leads that will not be needed. Needs a bit more work but needed to see how it would all fit together.

IMG_1771.png

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Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:26 pm quote
Sweet! Now replace that rusty bolt.
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Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:45 pm quote
Got the patch wires done and in place, and rev 3 of the cover to tidy things up.

IMG_1790.png

IMG_1791.png

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Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:12 am quote
why can't scooter parts ever be documented in a way that actually gives some useful information?

Since my initial interoperation was clearly wrong this is how I think it is intended to work.

In the image below terminal 3 (lamp) is an AC shunt and has zero to do with the battery. Any DC load must be run off the +B Battery side of things (normal but not documented that way).

Screen Shot 2017-04-21 at 07.05.12 .png

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Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:27 am quote
Not only that but the wiring diagrams utilize different methods of wiring which makes it extra frustrating. I think you have it right:
Lamp is regulated AC
B+ is regulated DC
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Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:36 am quote
Here's my updated DC diagram:

Screen Shot 2017-04-21 at 07.33.06 .png
but with a 12V battery.



Last edited by oopsclunkthud on Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:43 am quote
I'm still wondering what the white wire does
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Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:00 am quote
The white from the stator is the full wave 6V leg from each of the coils that are the yellows IIRC, it has been a while since I looked at a 74 setup. Since it is common to both coils, there are some options :

Ground one yellow, do not connect white to anything, the other yellow gives 12V AC
Ground the white, both yellows give 6V AC (although half wave)
Connect like the factory with both yellows and the white going into a pair of full wave rectifiers (in one box) and get a nice full wave 6V converted to DC
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Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:39 am quote
TR wrote:
The white from the stator is the full wave 6V leg from each of the coils that are the yellows IIRC, it has been a while since I looked at a 74 setup. Since it is common to both coils, there are some options :

Ground one yellow, do not connect white to anything, the other yellow gives 12V AC
Ground the white, both yellows give 6V AC (although half wave)
Connect like the factory with both yellows and the white going into a pair of full wave rectifiers (in one box) and get a nice full wave 6V converted to DC
Nice answer.

I'm struck by the thought that if oops ever sells one of his bikes that I probably want to buy it . Thorough, thoughtful work going on with awesome attention to detail.
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Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:48 am quote
TR wrote:
The white from the stator is the full wave 6V leg from each of the coils that are the yellows IIRC, it has been a while since I looked at a 74 setup. Since it is common to both coils, there are some options :

Ground one yellow, do not connect white to anything, the other yellow gives 12V AC
Ground the white, both yellows give 6V AC (although half wave)
Connect like the factory with both yellows and the white going into a pair of full wave rectifiers (in one box) and get a nice full wave 6V converted to DC
Just tested, correct! The white is a center tap between the two yellows. The odd thing is that when the key is on the white is connected to +6V, not ground as it normally is in a full wave DC setup

fullwaverectifier.png

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Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:18 am quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
The odd thing is that when the key is on the white is connected to +6V, not ground as it normally is in a full wave DC setup.

Indeed.


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Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:30 am quote
The white going positive when the key is on is just the back feed of the battery...
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Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:59 pm quote
TR wrote:
The white going positive when the key is on is just the back feed of the battery...
got it, I think.

in the prior diagram I posted the diodes were set so that the center tap of the coil was the low side or ground. In the Rally I think the diodes are flipped so the white get's pegged to the +6.

That would imply the inside of the rectifier/regulator works as follows. The white gives the positive current out and is connected to a red wire that joins the brown at the fuse block. the white/red/brown is all regulated by the brown connector on the regulator with most likely a zener, resistor, and capacitor but however it's done that is where it's done.

So the Yellows plays the rectification game with ground, letting the white be the DC out. Then the brown regulates the whole thing.

Screen Shot 2017-04-22 at 18.45.49 .png

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Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:22 pm quote
Got things rewired per the updated vespatronic DC diagram and all is well so far. Did some clean up of the headlight wires, found the bulb holder was upside down, all is well now.
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Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:31 pm quote
here's the file for the regulator cover, in case anyone needs it. The hole spacing should work for any of the larger rectifiers from '74 on.

RallyCover4.stl.zip
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  RallyCover4.stl.zip
 Filesize:  278.82 KB

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Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:37 pm quote
Took the bike for a short trip to fill the tank (forgot how much I love oil injection). Was slow to warm up but then was fine. The flywheel is a bit too light for taste but have the aluminum fan on order so that should take care of that. The timing may need a bit more advance in the stock form but plan to do some work on the head, so I'll live with it for now.

Anyhow, all set for Classico Moto Italia Venti (VCLG - San Jose CA)
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