OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
On Smallframes the 4plate setups tend to be too fragile at the tabs and it's usually preferable to stick with a 3 plate. What's the deal on the 7 spring p series clutches? Are the 4 cork setups ok?
|
UTC
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
|
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
UTC
quote
sdjohn wrote: On Smallframes the 4plate setups tend to be too fragile at the tabs and it's usually preferable to stick with a 3 plate. What's the deal on the 7 spring p series clutches? Are the 4 cork setups ok? |
|
UTC
quote
the lighter the flywheel the more of a beating the tabs on the clutch will take. so if you do both a very light flywheel and thin 4 plate clutch it will not slip but will deform the tabs over time.
|
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
|
UTC
quote
Ginch wrote: How light is very light Patrick? you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in. I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it... |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
UTC
quote
oopsclunkthud wrote: Ginch wrote: How light is very light Patrick? you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in. I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it... You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Thanks guys. My flywheel is still of the heavy variety. I'm thinking to try the DR 4 cork version, the springs are rated one step lighter than the Malossi ones.
|
|
UTC
quote
sdjohn wrote: Thanks guys. My flywheel is still of the heavy variety. I'm thinking to try the DR 4 cork version, the springs are rated one step lighter than the Malossi ones. |
|
UTC
quote
Ginch wrote: The Honda CR80 conversion/scratch built clutches have this feature. You can see how they're thickened on the part that hits the basket. Also they're aluminum. You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
I'm not really inclined to do it, but looking at the budget I was wondering how much change I'd notice if I ran the stock crank vs. one of the racing cranks? This would of course end with me running 57mm. I'm thinking the added intake duration is worth the scratch, but I had to ask. Right now I'm leaning toward the Tameni long stroke crank. It's duration isn't as long as the Mazz and the catalog notes that the potential for spitback is less because of that. Since I don't want to go reed, this is what I'm going for, unless someone says "dude just run your stock crank".
It's probably a horrible idea to run the stock crank - but I wanted to know. |
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7070 Location: So Cal |
UTC
quote
You answered your own question. The added duration is worth the extra scratch.
We have a Tameni in the yellow scoot, they're nice. On the other hand, if you're feeling adventurous you can cut your own stock crank. It's not as difficult as it sounds. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
SoCalGuy wrote: You answered your own question. The added duration is worth the extra scratch. We have a Tameni in the yellow scoot, they're nice. On the other hand, if you're feeling adventurous you can cut your own stock crank. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Tameni it is. |
UTC
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
|
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
UTC
quote
Ginch wrote: oopsclunkthud wrote: Ginch wrote: How light is very light Patrick? you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in. I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it... You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that. |
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7070 Location: So Cal |
UTC
quote
I shaved several millimeters off the smallie crank without splitting it. Wrapped it in plastic, taped it up like a mummy and gave it a thorough rinse in cleaner afterward... nary a piece of swarf got anywhere near the bearing.
Shhhh.... don't tell Norrie. what came off
|
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
UTC
quote
the Falcon wrote: I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back. I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Nice one socal, I had no idea you did that for your build! You have been studying up over there.
|
|
UTC
quote
Ginch wrote: the Falcon wrote: I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back. I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you. Seems like it would be better to modify the plate than the basket. Leave the driving edge the same and only modify the other edge. The edge of the basket is /should be hardened, the soft aluminum is easy to change. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
UTC
quote
oopsclunkthud wrote: Ginch wrote: the Falcon wrote: I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back. I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you. Seems like it would be better to modify the plate than the basket. Leave the driving edge the same and only modify the other edge. The edge of the basket is /should be hardened, the soft aluminum is easy to change. http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8084CR/Clutch+plates+BGM+Pro+108mm+type+Honda+CR80+modified+for+clutch+type+Vespa+Cosa2FL+1992+PX+1995+Superstrong+Scooter+Service+MMW+4+plates?meta= My mate already had a basket that was dog-eared at the slots, so had nothing to lose except some time. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
So the verdict is in. Malossi 210 sport. P125 4th gear. Cut Tameni 60mm crank. I'm sticking with my SIP Road 2 pipe and the DRT SI 24.24 carb for now.
The build is on. Untitled by john.headley, on Flickr Untitled by john.headley, on Flickr Untitled by john.headley, on Flickr |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Today's question - the primary tab washer - can I use either type? I had the weird shape washer that goes with the 2 tab (but no actual 2 tab washer) and a lock washer on there, which is not correct. I ordered the 4 tab type, and see in the parts book that this appears to go with a plain washer. Is it specific to the primary that you are running or are the 2 setups interchangeable?
I ordered this: But maybe I needed this: This is the type of crap that results in having lots of extra shipping dollars - you order up a bundle of stuff and a tab washer bites you as soon as they've shipped. I also forgot to order a new rear mount as mine is cracking. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Ginch wrote: If you have it already and it will do the job I'd use it. Is your old one wrecked? and a lock washer, which is wrong. |
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
UTC
quote
I think on mine I have the 4 tab with the last one on top... from memory you need something to stop the tabbed washer from turning.
|
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
After looking at the primary and case again it looks like either will be fine. My parts manual isn't printed well on that exact part and so it is hard to tell but there are the two parts numbers, probably one for vsx and one for vnx.
|
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Cush drive rebuild - I'm debating on doing it or leaving it alone. There are no rattles when I shake it and it was behaving fine before I tore the engine down. I assume I should change the bearing but am I opening an unnecessary can of worms by opening up the cush drive if it seems OK? Or am I wasting time to open what seems OK? Hard to decide. If I had a drill press at home I'd probably already be done with it.
|
UTC
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
|
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
UTC
quote
You can change the bearings in the cush without needing a drill - you need that to change the springs - I am sure that's what you meant. Voo doo and I just changed mine the day before. I feel we just spent a wad of cash on a new kit ( as you know i am in middle of similar build )-- i am changing/changed all bearings.`An ounce of caution is worth a pound of cure!!! or something like that
|
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Yeah that's what I meant. I can change the bearing no sweat but should I open it up and get those springs even if I don't hear any rattles?
|
Style Maven
'74 50s x3 '78 P200 E '84 Cosa '91 PK50XL2 - & - '58 AllState '68 Sprint '66(?) Super125 and '72 DanMotor Super150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 9511 Location: seattle/athens |
UTC
quote
Good question. And philosophical more than simply mechanical. So first some background?
Assuming it's original and bike was mostly driven lovingly? Assuming you understand and care about what happens when you DO really get on it hard including the shifting and that you WON'T be doing that all the time at every light after you build this temptingly powerful motor? If it's quiet out of the motor, you probably have no broken springs. If it wasn't thrashed much, the springs haven't been compressed to the limit for very many cycles so fatigue is not an issue. But if you are building to race, which some ppl are, you prob don't want stock here anyway. Now the philosophy: You are in there anyway and you want a 'perfect' motor, just like new plus you hear chatter about busted cush drives. Parts aren't too expensive, but doing it is a big PIA and you could fuck it up. I've done this only one time, for a friend who had already got new springs. I think they were maybe better or stronger or something. It's major pain w/ no drill press, no fun to close & rivet again and all the springs that came out were fine. On mine I figure that if it's only through prob 10% to max 50% of it's service life, why not keep using it up? Remember, all your fasteners and MANY other pieces of the motor are also part way thru their reasonable service life and have seen stress cycles, heat cycles, corrosion and all the other things that lead to fatigue & failure. I love this little story from Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that was posted recently: Quote: The fences are really all gone now. No brush, no trees. The sweep of the hills is so great John's motorcycle looks like an ant up ahead moving through the green slopes. Above the slopes outcroppings of rocks stand out overhead at the tops of the bluffs. It all has a natural tidiness. If it were abandoned land there would be a chewed-up, scruffy look, with chunks of old foundation concrete, scraps of painted sheet metal and wire, weeds that had gotten in where the sod was broken up for whatever little enterprise was attempted. None of that here. Not kept up, just never messed up in the first place. It's just the way it always must have been. Reservation land. There's no friendly motorcycle mechanic on the other side of those rocks and I'm wondering if we're ready for this. If anything goes wrong now we're in real trouble. I check the engine temperature with my hand. It's reassuringly cool. I put in the clutch and let it coast for a second in order to hear it idling. Something sounds funny and I do it again. It takes a while to figure out that it's not the engine at all. There's an echo from the bluff ahead that lingers after the throttle is closed. Funny. I do this two or three times. Chris wonders what's wrong and I have him listen to the echo. No comment from him. This old engine has a nickels-and-dimes sound to it. As if there were a lot of loose change flying around inside. Sounds awful, but it's just normal valve clatter. Once you get used to that sound and learn to expect it, you automatically hear any difference. If you don't hear any, that's good. I tried to get John interested in that sound once but it was hopeless. All he heard was noise and all he saw was the machine and me with greasy tools in my hands, nothing else. That didn't work. He didn't really see what was going on and was not interested enough to find out. He isn't so interested in what things mean as in what they are. That's quite important, that he sees things this way. It took me a long time to see this difference and it's important for the Chautauqua that I make this difference clear. I was so baffled by his refusal even to think about any mechanical subject I kept searching for ways to clue him to the whole thing but didn't know where to start. I thought I would wait until something went wrong with his machine and then I would help him fix it and that way get him into it, but I goofed that one myself because I didn't understand this difference in the way he looked at things. His handlebars had started slipping. Not badly, he said, just a little when you shoved hard on them. I warned him not to use his adjustable wrench on the tightening nuts. It was likely to damage the chrome and start small rust spots. He agreed to use my metric sockets and box-ends. When he brought his motorcycle over I got my wrenches out but then noticed that no amount of tightening would stop the slippage, because the ends of the collars were pinched shut. "You're going to have to shim those out," I said. "What's shim?" "It's a thin, flat strip of metal. You just slip it around the handlebar under the collar there and it will open up the collar to where you can tighten it again. You use shims like that to make adjustments in all kinds of machines." "Oh," he said. He was getting interested. "Good. Where do you buy them?" "I've got some right here," I said gleefully, holding up a can of beer in my hand. He didn't understand for a moment. Then he said, "What, the can?" "Sure," I said, "best shim stock in the world." I thought this was pretty clever myself. Save him a trip to God knows where to get shim stock. Save him time. Save him money. But to my surprise he didn't see the cleverness of this at all. In fact he got noticeably haughty about the whole thing. Pretty soon he was dodging and filling with all kinds of excuses and, before I realized what his real attitude was, we had decided not to fix the handlebars after all. As far as I know those handlebars are still loose. And I believe now that he was actually offended at the time. I had had the nerve to propose repair of his new eighteen-hundred dollar BMW, the pride of a half-century of German mechanical finesse, with a piece of old beer can! Ach, du lieber! Since then we have had very few conversations about motorcycle maintenance. None, now that I think of it. You push it any further and suddenly you are angry, without knowing why. I should say, to explain this, that beer-can aluminum is soft and sticky, as metals go. Perfect for the application. Aluminum doesn't oxidize in wet weather...or, more precisely, it always has a thin layer of oxide that prevents any further oxidation. Also perfect. In other words, any true German mechanic, with a half-century of mechanical finesse behind him, would have concluded that this particular solution to this particular technical problem was perfect. For a while I thought what I should have done was sneak over to the workbench, cut a shim from the beer can, remove the printing and then come back and tell him we were in luck, it was the last one I had, specially imported from Germany. That would have done it. A special shim from the private stock of Baron Alfred Krupp, who had to sell it at a great sacrifice. Then he would have gone gaga over it. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
I'll probably take it in to work where I can use a proper drill press instead of being in a hurry. I realize I asked an unanswerable question. The secret to success on these things is pausing long enough to assess the situation.
|
UTC
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
|
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: UTC
Posts: 988 Location: seattle, wa |
UTC
quote
It is the one thing we are't bothering to do - i hear no sound whatsoever from it and it appears solid - we did change all the bearings in it. Funny enough i bought a Premium bearing set from *()(&& supplier in Germany and the the new bearing that goes in the bottom of cush was worse than the OG one we had. It came new with a light catch that was clearly audible when we used air to spin the bearing - One of Voo doos excellent tests!!! SO I SUGGEST CHECKING ALL new bearings to make sure they are sound...unfortunately ...
|
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8595 Location: Victoria, Australia |
UTC
quote
That's timely V oodoo. Robert Pirsig just died about a month ago. I remember we had to read it for school at some point. I enjoyed parts like that but had absolutely no idea what was going on when it came to the spiritual side of things! Thanks for putting that up.
Checking bearings with air - when I was young I worked in a mechanic's shop for a while. Was washing bearings one day and dried with compressed air. When he heard the whhhheeeeee sound he came running... he said NEVER EVER do that with bearings. He said if they catch then the momentum of the bearing can send it flying, and he's seen someone who'd just about had their finger taken off by it. So perhaps do it on a bit of wire in a place where it can't go anywhere if something happens. |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: UTC
Posts: 1973 Location: UK (South East) |
UTC
quote
Getting rivets out of the primary drive cog
I've upgeared two motors from 65T to 63T primaries, Getting the plates off and the Christmas tree out was easy, as was riveting the new new plates around the new 63Ts and springs, but both of the old 65T cogs still have the rivets well and truly stuck in the holes. How did you get them out? I'd like to re-use them to replace the 68T primaries in my 125/150 motors.
|
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Re: Getting rivets out of the primary drive cog
swa45 wrote: I've upgeared two motors from 65T to 63T primaries, Getting the plates off and the Christmas tree out was easy, as was riveting the new new plates around the new 63Ts and springs, but both of the old 65T cogs still have the rivets well and truly stuck in the holes. How did you get them out? I'd like to re-use them to replace the 68T primaries in my 125/150 motors. -use center bit to get started -use big bit to cut through rivet head and free the plate -use smaller bit to drill out the rivet, using the nice center divot from the first cut -push the bit through and the remaining rivet with it once you are through the primary I've been watching the scooter techniques videos and Sausage explained it perfectly, if you hit the primary with the bit it will sound different, then you know you need to reposition the bit (or stop, in the case of the bigger bit for the rivet heads). |
bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
Joined: UTC
Posts: 7070 Location: So Cal |
UTC
quote
And after all that, springs look great, lol.
So now are you going to swap out the primaries or just rebuild it as is? |
OP
Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
Joined: UTC
Posts: 8147 Location: San Diego, CA |
UTC
quote
Rebuild as is, primarily because the straight cut primaries don't seem to be stocked by anyone in the US and would cause a 2-3 week delay. Secondarily because I've placed 4 orders in less than a week and sticker shock is setting in .
|
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: UTC
Posts: 4113 Location: Veria, Greece |
UTC
quote
I was in the same boat as you, when I first rebuild my engine to stock. Rebuild the cush drive or not?? The engine had 67k Kms on it's back, no work ever done on it, except clutch plates and regular maintenance. I decided to open it up and after getting through hell to drill the rivets out, everything was OK. But, having already ordered all the springs and the covers, I changed them just to be sure...
|
Modern Vespa is the premier site for modern Vespa and Piaggio scooters. Vespa GTS300, GTS250, GTV, GT200, LX150, LXS, ET4, ET2, MP3, Fuoco, Elettrica and more.