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On Smallframes the 4plate setups tend to be too fragile at the tabs and it's usually preferable to stick with a 3 plate. What's the deal on the 7 spring p series clutches? Are the 4 cork setups ok?
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sdjohn wrote:
On Smallframes the 4plate setups tend to be too fragile at the tabs and it's usually preferable to stick with a 3 plate. What's the deal on the 7 spring p series clutches? Are the 4 cork setups ok?
I've been using a Malossi 4 cork set up w their springs on my malossi 166 and it seems fine so far - only bitch is how stiff it is - you better have a firm grip LOL - but i've gotten used to it an really love it now.
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the lighter the flywheel the more of a beating the tabs on the clutch will take. so if you do both a very light flywheel and thin 4 plate clutch it will not slip but will deform the tabs over time.
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How light is very light Patrick?
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Ginch wrote:
How light is very light Patrick?
HP4 is very light. based on my impressions so far the Vespatronic is very light.

you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in.

I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it...
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
Ginch wrote:
How light is very light Patrick?
HP4 is very light. based on my impressions so far the Vespatronic is very light.

you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in.

I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it...
The Honda CR80 conversion/scratch built clutches have this feature. You can see how they're thickened on the part that hits the basket. Also they're aluminium.
You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
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Thanks guys. My flywheel is still of the heavy variety. I'm thinking to try the DR 4 cork version, the springs are rated one step lighter than the Malossi ones.
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sdjohn wrote:
Thanks guys. My flywheel is still of the heavy variety. I'm thinking to try the DR 4 cork version, the springs are rated one step lighter than the Malossi ones.
you can also run a 4 plate with stock springs. You still get 33% more holding force but without any extra effort. I did that on a 102cc smallframe and it worked well.
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Ginch wrote:
The Honda CR80 conversion/scratch built clutches have this feature. You can see how they're thickened on the part that hits the basket. Also they're aluminum.
You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that.
Ah, that must be where I saw it!
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I'm not really inclined to do it, but looking at the budget I was wondering how much change I'd notice if I ran the stock crank vs. one of the racing cranks? This would of course end with me running 57mm. I'm thinking the added intake duration is worth the scratch, but I had to ask. Right now I'm leaning toward the Tameni long stroke crank. It's duration isn't as long as the Mazz and the catalog notes that the potential for spitback is less because of that. Since I don't want to go reed, this is what I'm going for, unless someone says "dude just run your stock crank".

It's probably a horrible idea to run the stock crank - but I wanted to know.
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You answered your own question. The added duration is worth the extra scratch.

We have a Tameni in the yellow scoot, they're nice.

On the other hand, if you're feeling adventurous you can cut your own stock crank. It's not as difficult as it sounds.
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SoCalGuy wrote:
You answered your own question. The added duration is worth the extra scratch.

We have a Tameni in the yellow scoot, they're nice.

On the other hand, if you're feeling adventurous you can cut your own stock crank. It's not as difficult as it sounds.
Nah, then I have to take it apart and put it back together again to protect the bearing. The Norrie Kerr book was very clear on this - you can't protect it with rags, that is half assed.

Tameni it is.
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Ginch wrote:
oopsclunkthud wrote:
Ginch wrote:
How light is very light Patrick?
HP4 is very light. based on my impressions so far the Vespatronic is very light.

you can still get good life out of a setup like that but when you go to replace the plates it can be quite a shock at the condition they are in.

I've been playing with ideas of how you could thin the plates to get the 4 plate setup but keep it thick where it contacts the bell. Could just be pressed thinner in areas, or could be tapered. Not really something you or I could whip up in the garage, but maybe someone at Polini will read it...
The Honda CR80 conversion/scratch built clutches have this feature. You can see how they're thickened on the part that hits the basket. Also they're aluminum.
You can only fit 3 in a 7 spring basket - maybe 4 in a Cosa? Not sure about that.

External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back.
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I shaved several millimeters off the smallie crank without splitting it. Wrapped it in plastic, taped it up like a mummy and gave it a thorough rinse in cleaner afterward... nary a piece of swarf got anywhere near the bearing.

Shhhh.... don't tell Norrie.
what came off
what came off
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SoCalGuy wrote:
Shhhh.... don't tell Norrie.
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the Falcon wrote:
I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back.
A mate just did this. He said the most difficult part was getting the spacing even - ie taking the exact same amount off each slot in the basket. Because if you take not enough off then the plate tab tends to hit that one first and not the others which might result in uneven wear.
I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you.
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Nice one socal, I had no idea you did that for your build! You have been studying up over there.
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Ginch wrote:
the Falcon wrote:
I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back.
A mate just did this. He said the most difficult part was getting the spacing even - ie taking the exact same amount off each slot in the basket. Because if you take not enough off then the plate tab tends to hit that one first and not the others which might result in uneven wear.
I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you.
I've got a set on my wish list to play with a whole new design for the large frame as a maybe I'll get to it, maybe some day I'll make it.

Seems like it would be better to modify the plate than the basket. Leave the driving edge the same and only modify the other edge. The edge of the basket is /should be hardened, the soft aluminum is easy to change.
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oopsclunkthud wrote:
Ginch wrote:
the Falcon wrote:
I just ordered some cr80 clutch plates - going to try to adapt them . If it works out good I'll report back.
A mate just did this. He said the most difficult part was getting the spacing even - ie taking the exact same amount off each slot in the basket. Because if you take not enough off then the plate tab tends to hit that one first and not the others which might result in uneven wear.
I'll see if I can find the pics after work for you.
I've got a set on my wish list to play with a whole new design for the large frame as a maybe I'll get to it, maybe some day I'll make it.

Seems like it would be better to modify the plate than the basket. Leave the driving edge the same and only modify the other edge. The edge of the basket is /should be hardened, the soft aluminum is easy to change.
Yes that's what SCK do already.
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8084CR/Clutch+plates+BGM+Pro+108mm+type+Honda+CR80+modified+for+clutch+type+Vespa+Cosa2FL+1992+PX+1995+Superstrong+Scooter+Service+MMW+4+plates?meta=

My mate already had a basket that was dog-eared at the slots, so had nothing to lose except some time.
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So the verdict is in. Malossi 210 sport. P125 4th gear. Cut Tameni 60mm crank. I'm sticking with my SIP Road 2 pipe and the DRT SI 24.24 carb for now.

The build is on.
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory textUntitled by john.headley, on Flickr
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory textUntitled by john.headley, on Flickr
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory textUntitled by john.headley, on Flickr
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Looking good John!
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Today's question - the primary tab washer - can I use either type? I had the weird shape washer that goes with the 2 tab (but no actual 2 tab washer) and a lock washer on there, which is not correct. I ordered the 4 tab type, and see in the parts book that this appears to go with a plain washer. Is it specific to the primary that you are running or are the 2 setups interchangeable?

I ordered this:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

But maybe I needed this:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text

This is the type of crap that results in having lots of extra shipping dollars - you order up a bundle of stuff and a tab washer bites you as soon as they've shipped. Laughing emoticon I also forgot to order a new rear mount as mine is cracking.
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If you have it already and it will do the job I'd use it. Is your old one wrecked?
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Ginch wrote:
If you have it already and it will do the job I'd use it. Is your old one wrecked?
Missing, it is. I had this:
External inline image provided by member with no explanatory text
and a lock washer, which is wrong.
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I think on mine I have the 4 tab with the last one on top... from memory you need something to stop the tabbed washer from turning.
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After looking at the primary and case again it looks like either will be fine. My parts manual isn't printed well on that exact part and so it is hard to tell but there are the two parts numbers, probably one for vsx and one for vnx.
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Cush drive rebuild - I'm debating on doing it or leaving it alone. There are no rattles when I shake it and it was behaving fine before I tore the engine down. I assume I should change the bearing but am I opening an unnecessary can of worms by opening up the cush drive if it seems OK? Or am I wasting time to open what seems OK? Hard to decide. If I had a drill press at home I'd probably already be done with it.
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You can change the bearings in the cush without needing a drill - you need that to change the springs - I am sure that's what you meant. Voo doo and I just changed mine the day before. I feel we just spent a wad of cash on a new kit ( as you know i am in middle of similar build )-- i am changing/changed all bearings.`An ounce of caution is worth a pound of cure!!! or something like that Clown emoticon
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Yeah that's what I meant. I can change the bearing no sweat but should I open it up and get those springs even if I don't hear any rattles?
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Good question. And philosophical more than simply mechanical. So first some background?

Assuming it's original and bike was mostly driven lovingly?
Assuming you understand and care about what happens when you DO really get on it hard including the shifting and that you WON'T be doing that all the time at every light after you build this temptingly powerful motor?

If it's quiet out of the motor, you probably have no broken springs. If it wasn't thrashed much, the springs haven't been compressed to the limit for very many cycles so fatigue is not an issue. But if you are building to race, which some ppl are, you prob don't want stock here anyway.

Now the philosophy: You are in there anyway and you want a 'perfect' motor, just like new plus you hear chatter about busted cush drives. Parts aren't too expensive, but doing it is a big PIA and you could fuck it up.

I've done this only one time, for a friend who had already got new springs. I think they were maybe better or stronger or something. It's major pain w/ no drill press, no fun to close & rivet again and all the springs that came out were fine.

On mine I figure that if it's only through prob 10% to max 50% of it's service life, why not keep using it up? Remember, all your fasteners and MANY other pieces of the motor are also part way thru their reasonable service life and have seen stress cycles, heat cycles, corrosion and all the other things that lead to fatigue & failure.

I love this little story from Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance that was posted recently:
Quote:
The fences are really all gone now. No brush, no trees. The sweep of the hills is so great John's motorcycle looks like an ant up ahead
moving through the green slopes. Above the slopes outcroppings of rocks stand out overhead at the tops of the bluffs.
It all has a natural tidiness. If it were abandoned land there would be a chewed-up, scruffy look, with chunks of old foundation
concrete, scraps of painted sheet metal and wire, weeds that had gotten in where the sod was broken up for whatever little enterprise
was attempted. None of that here. Not kept up, just never messed up in the first place. It's just the way it always must have been.
Reservation land.
There's no friendly motorcycle mechanic on the other side of those rocks and I'm wondering if we're ready for this. If anything goes
wrong now we're in real trouble.
I check the engine temperature with my hand. It's reassuringly cool. I put in the clutch and let it coast for a second in order to hear it
idling. Something sounds funny and I do it again. It takes a while to figure out that it's not the engine at all. There's an echo from the
bluff ahead that lingers after the throttle is closed. Funny. I do this two or three times. Chris wonders what's wrong and I have him
listen to the echo. No comment from him.
This old engine has a nickels-and-dimes sound to it. As if there were a lot of loose change flying around inside. Sounds awful, but it's
just normal valve clatter. Once you get used to that sound and learn to expect it, you automatically hear any difference. If you don't
hear any, that's good.
I tried to get John interested in that sound once but it was hopeless. All he heard was noise and all he saw was the machine and me
with greasy tools in my hands, nothing else. That didn't work.
He didn't really see what was going on and was not interested enough to find out. He isn't so interested in what things mean as in what
they are. That's quite important, that he sees things this way. It took me a long time to see this difference and it's important for the
Chautauqua that I make this difference clear.
I was so baffled by his refusal even to think about any mechanical subject I kept searching for ways to clue him to the whole thing but
didn't know where to start.
I thought I would wait until something went wrong with his machine and then I would help him fix it and that way get him into it, but I
goofed that one myself because I didn't understand this difference in the way he looked at things.
His handlebars had started slipping. Not badly, he said, just a little when you shoved hard on them. I warned him not to use his
adjustable wrench on the tightening nuts. It was likely to damage the chrome and start small rust spots. He agreed to use my metric
sockets and box-ends.
When he brought his motorcycle over I got my wrenches out but then noticed that no amount of tightening would stop the slippage,
because the ends of the collars were pinched shut.
"You're going to have to shim those out," I said.
"What's shim?"
"It's a thin, flat strip of metal. You just slip it around the handlebar under the collar there and it will open up the collar to where you
can tighten it again. You use shims like that to make adjustments in all kinds of machines."
"Oh," he said. He was getting interested. "Good. Where do you buy them?"
"I've got some right here," I said gleefully, holding up a can of beer in my hand.
He didn't understand for a moment. Then he said, "What, the can?"
"Sure," I said, "best shim stock in the world."
I thought this was pretty clever myself. Save him a trip to God knows where to get shim stock. Save him time. Save him money.
But to my surprise he didn't see the cleverness of this at all. In fact he got noticeably haughty about the whole thing. Pretty soon he
was dodging and filling with all kinds of excuses and, before I realized what his real attitude was, we had decided not to fix the
handlebars after all.
As far as I know those handlebars are still loose. And I believe now that he was actually offended at the time. I had had the nerve to
propose repair of his new eighteen-hundred dollar BMW, the pride of a half-century of German mechanical finesse, with a piece of old
beer can!
Ach, du lieber!
Since then we have had very few conversations about motorcycle maintenance. None, now that I think of it.
You push it any further and suddenly you are angry, without knowing why.
I should say, to explain this, that beer-can aluminum is soft and sticky, as metals go. Perfect for the application. Aluminum doesn't
oxidize in wet weather...or, more precisely, it always has a thin layer of oxide that prevents any further oxidation. Also perfect.
In other words, any true German mechanic, with a half-century of mechanical finesse behind him, would have concluded that this
particular solution to this particular technical problem was perfect.
For a while I thought what I should have done was sneak over to the workbench, cut a shim from the beer can, remove the printing and
then come back and tell him we were in luck, it was the last one I had, specially imported from Germany. That would have done it. A
special shim from the private stock of Baron Alfred Krupp, who had to sell it at a great sacrifice. Then he would have gone gaga over
it.
Now, YOU decide.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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UTC quote
That book is great.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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@sdjohn avatar
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I'll probably take it in to work where I can use a proper drill press instead of being in a hurry. I realize I asked an unanswerable question. The secret to success on these things is pausing long enough to assess the situation.
@the_falcon avatar
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Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
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@the_falcon avatar
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
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It is the one thing we are't bothering to do - i hear no sound whatsoever from it and it appears solid - we did change all the bearings in it. Funny enough i bought a Premium bearing set from *()(&& supplier in Germany and the the new bearing that goes in the bottom of cush was worse than the OG one we had. It came new with a light catch that was clearly audible when we used air to spin the bearing - One of Voo doos excellent tests!!! SO I SUGGEST CHECKING ALL new bearings to make sure they are sound...unfortunately ...
@ginch avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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@ginch avatar
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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That's timely V oodoo. Robert Pirsig just died about a month ago. I remember we had to read it for school at some point. I enjoyed parts like that but had absolutely no idea what was going on when it came to the spiritual side of things! Thanks for putting that up.

Checking bearings with air - when I was young I worked in a mechanic's shop for a while. Was washing bearings one day and dried with compressed air. When he heard the whhhheeeeee sound he came running... he said NEVER EVER do that with bearings. He said if they catch then the momentum of the bearing can send it flying, and he's seen someone who'd just about had their finger taken off by it.
So perhaps do it on a bit of wire in a place where it can't go anywhere if something happens.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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@sdjohn avatar
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I had to.
Forum member supplied image with no explanatory text
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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Posts: 1973
Location: UK (South East)
 
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Posts: 1973
Location: UK (South East)
UTC quote
Getting rivets out of the primary drive cog
I've upgeared two motors from 65T to 63T primaries, Getting the plates off and the Christmas tree out was easy, as was riveting the new new plates around the new 63Ts and springs, but both of the old 65T cogs still have the rivets well and truly stuck in the holes. How did you get them out? I'd like to re-use them to replace the 68T primaries in my 125/150 motors.
OP
@sdjohn avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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UTC quote
Re: Getting rivets out of the primary drive cog
swa45 wrote:
I've upgeared two motors from 65T to 63T primaries, Getting the plates off and the Christmas tree out was easy, as was riveting the new new plates around the new 63Ts and springs, but both of the old 65T cogs still have the rivets well and truly stuck in the holes. How did you get them out? I'd like to re-use them to replace the 68T primaries in my 125/150 motors.
Drilled them out, 7/64" I think. I broke the bit on the last one... Had to drill that one out from the back side. I did use the drill press, I can't imagine the job without it. I used a bigger bit on the heads only. It went like this:
-use center bit to get started
-use big bit to cut through rivet head and free the plate
-use smaller bit to drill out the rivet, using the nice center divot from the first cut
-push the bit through and the remaining rivet with it once you are through the primary

I've been watching the scooter techniques videos and Sausage explained it perfectly, if you hit the primary with the bit it will sound different, then you know you need to reposition the bit (or stop, in the case of the bigger bit for the rivet heads).
@socalguy avatar
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bodgemaster
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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bodgemaster
@socalguy avatar
63 GL, 76 Super (x2), 74 Primavera (x2), 79 P200, 06 Fly 150
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Location: So Cal
UTC quote
And after all that, springs look great, lol.

So now are you going to swap out the primaries or just rebuild it as is?
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@sdjohn avatar
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Location: San Diego, CA
 
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@sdjohn avatar
'15 GTS300, '86 PX125EFL, '66 VBB, '01 ET4
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Location: San Diego, CA
UTC quote
Rebuild as is, primarily because the straight cut primaries don't seem to be stocked by anyone in the US and would cause a 2-3 week delay. Secondarily because I've placed 4 orders in less than a week and sticker shock is setting in .
@safis avatar
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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Ossessionato
@safis avatar
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 PK125XL Elestart, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Location: Veria, Greece
UTC quote
I was in the same boat as you, when I first rebuild my engine to stock. Rebuild the cush drive or not?? The engine had 67k Kms on it's back, no work ever done on it, except clutch plates and regular maintenance. I decided to open it up and after getting through hell to drill the rivets out, everything was OK. But, having already ordered all the springs and the covers, I changed them just to be sure...
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