Malossi 210 build thread - PWK30 tuning / perpetual torture
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:23 pm quote
The diameter would be the first thing to reduce. The bleed over from the diameter will change the pilot jet requirement. The run down flooding is a diameter issue. As you're running nearly the richest diameter, this is more likely to be the problem. No need to go over temperature at 1/4-3/8, just drop the needle clip to richen it up again.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Nov 11, 2018 2:59 pm quote
So the bypass alone won't cut it, still flooding after a long downhill at 1/8 throttle.

Also, the idle is not really liking the current setup anyway, rpm grows until 3 turns out on the air screw.

So the idle jet has to come down, then we can see about what else to do. Looks like 45 idle becomes 42, and we either choose HKH on 3rd clip or GJK on 4th.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:54 pm quote
GJK would seem the best out of that choice. Need to reduce the diameter and increase the taper length.
Reduce the pilot jet until 1.5 turns but be aware the pilot may need to get bigger as the diameter is reduced.
Like said before most of this stage can be done by revving on the stand. If it won't get to near maximum rpm at any throttle position on the stand it will feel worse on the road. Running weak shows up well too.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:03 am quote
Between my post and yours I did try GJK with 4th but still 45 pilot and it still flooded. Will go 42 pilot and see where that lands the idle air screw setting.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:03 pm quote
How was the GJK once the pilot jet was at 1.5 turns? Enough to get rid of the rundown flooding? or need some more?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:21 pm quote
Didnít get to it yet, will report back, but in-laws coming for Thanksgiving holiday, not much scooter time for a bit.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:12 am quote
GJK, 42 pilot, 152 main, 4th clip gives no more flooding but now lean hang coming off 1/8 throttle running. At idle, the engine RPM is flat from 1.5-2.25 turns out, which means I think I should stay on the 42 pilot. I'm thinking to go HKJ or HKH to get some fuel back in at 1/8.

Screen Shot 2018-11-19 at 9.12.13 AM.png

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm quote
looks like the 42 pilot is good for now then. Go with the HKJ and be prepared to drop the clip if 3/8 goes rich. Hopefully this is enough. Important to get the 3/8 right at the same time, as this will affect the length, which will change the 1/8 a little.
Going to be feeling good to ride soon.
Ossessionato
73 Rally, 74 Rally, 76 ET3, 80 P200, 63 Li125, 65 Li225 Silver Special, 86 Elite 80, 2015 HD Road Glide Special, 2011 Ural Tourist
Joined: 18 Jan 2012
Posts: 3137
Location: Oceanside/ SF
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:02 pm quote
40.......40.......40!

Happy Thanksgiving John
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:43 am quote
We will hit 40, happy thanksgiving Malcolm.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:14 pm quote
Donít use this;

C367DB3C-F965-42ED-907E-13567E155AF0.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:19 pm quote
Use this

3B122EEF-6FDF-480A-B2AB-BBBD2F3457FB.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:23 pm quote
152/42/hkj clip4, floods at 1/8 and off. WTH?

Remove screen filter, no flood

Install Marchald, no flood

280 temps for 1/4 throttle = good!

1/2 throttle = 345, needs more fuel

It does rev out. Could probably work with 154 or 156 main. But not sure on the taper if I can make a jjj work.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:24 pm quote
Feels great, btw other than some low rpm spots.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1421
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:34 pm quote
John, now that I saw your photos, I remembered something I read on GSF. These filters, along with the Malossi I use, get a bit in the way of the air braker which apparently is fixed on this carb. The Malossi filter I use, has a diameter of 70mm and comes with rubber adapters to use, depending of the diameter of the carb. I had ordered a while back the Polini venturi which I believe will help with the ďtransitionĒ of the air going in. Itís outside diameter is perfect for the Malossi filter. Iím glad things are going better with the Marchald...

DE6E725C-23E5-49CA-B0FC-373C9C0CEBAB.jpeg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:56 pm quote
Yeah same setup with the Marchald, varying rubber adapters. I was remembering that upjettr hates those screen filters and decided to try.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:52 pm quote
Looks like I need yet another jetsrus order for a JJJ needle, it's the only way to pile on some fuel at the mid-upper end while holding the bottom as is. Somewhere between clip 3, 3.5, or 4 there should be an answer in tandem with a slight increase in main jet.

Screen Shot 2018-11-21 at 7.49.53 PM.png

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:42 pm quote
Can I ask you to order one for me as well please John? Their shipping to here comes via the international space station in a gold-plated envelope.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:44 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Donít use this;
oh dear That explains quite a lot. Must be feeling like It was supposed to now.

I can't run anything on my 221. Was running a 175 main jet when the crank snapped. Have a pile of filters, all lose power in various amounts. Just have a rubber to the frame.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:27 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Can I ask you to order one for me as well please John? Their shipping to here comes via the international space station in a gold-plated envelope.
i got it via SIP, do you have a good SIP source? Otherwise I could.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:41 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Can I ask you to order one for me as well please John? Their shipping to here comes via the international space station in a gold-plated envelope.
i got it via SIP, do you have a good SIP source? Otherwise I could.
Ah no worries then, I was sure you said earlier you got your stuff from Jets R Us.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:11 pm quote
Wait are you asking about the needle or the Marchald? I already ordered the jjj from jetsrus.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:19 pm quote
sdjohn wrote:
Wait are you asking about the needle or the Marchald? I already ordered the jjj from jetsrus.
The needle. I thought you already had the Marchald because you said it didn't upset your jetting?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:45 pm quote
I thought you wanted me to get a Marchald for you. Classic miscommunication, I got mixed up. Sorry.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:46 pm quote
I already have the Marchald, you are right.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:10 pm quote
so a few trials today - had left off 42/152/hkj/4 clip, but mid throttle temps high

42/152/jjj/4clip = nasty rich in mid range, will never fly

42/152/jjj/3.5clip = not good enough, still rich but better

didn't try 42/152/jjj/3 clip because kyajet says it's only 1% different than the baseline

not sure where to go - by math the 3.5 clip should have seemed OK, but I'm wondering if what we are really dealing with here is the atomizer is too big. that would give the crappy driving in most places while still leaving the possibility of lean operation at higher RPM like on my test run where the temps were too high.

it would seem I can either go back to 42/hkj/4clip and up the main, try 42/jjj/3clip with a bigger main, or drop the 18 hole atomizer and go back to the standard 8 hole atomizer. i kind of hate the last option because it will launch me back to the beginning. but I'm thinking this might be the problem.

it's likely the 20 hole is actually richer than the 18 because the holes are smaller - it also might be worth a try.



Screen Shot 2018-12-15 at 4.02.41 PM.png

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:27 am quote
You sure that main jet is big enough?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:23 am quote
No I think maybe not. Itís fishy.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4595
Location: So Cal
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:13 am quote
I have nothing to contribute. Just wanted to help get the thread to 40 pages ...
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:18 pm quote
I tried again today
42/156/hkj/4th clip

it was feeling rich but I decided to fuel up and go have a thrash and see what the temps would do. they were lower at the top of my 1/2 throttle uphill test (335 vs 345-350 on the 152 main). the best / most interesting thing is I've been too impatient on getting the bike warm enough to judge. after that thrash on the hill the 1/2 throttle range really cleaned up a lot compared to when I was first judging it. I'm thinking I may even have room to up the main again - or perhaps to try that J taper. But I'd rather shove some more main at it if it will take it. I'm just surprised that the alloy kit seems to take so much longer to get to heat soaked than my little DR on the smallframe.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6834
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:05 pm quote
Your patience constantly amazes me.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:42 pm quote
The thread ends when I sell it. I wonít give odds on if that happens. But Iíve got to get it respectable to do so. And part of it is pride - I am an engine engineer and I will feel like crap if this beats me. So every time I get pissed at it I park it and come back in a few days or weeks. After all it still is a relatively simple machine. It shouldnít be impossible!! We will get this!!
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1197
Location: London UK
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:00 am quote
Seems like the main jet really is too small. Like I keep saying. When the main jet is big enough for wide open splutter/4 stroking then 2 sizes smaller is usually the correct jet. To be confident nothing bad is going to happen later, you have to have felt the WOT splutter before finalising the main jet.
This has to be re-done every time you change the needle or atomiser.

You're just as addicted as the rest of us.
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
Joined: 16 Jun 2011
Posts: 2029
Location: Chicago. Well, Evanston, but that's almost Chicago
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:30 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
You're just as addicted as the rest of us.
Truer words were never spoken!
Member
PX200
Joined: 05 Apr 2017
Posts: 23
Location: greece
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:35 pm quote
45,top clip, 135 or more, 48hole Atomizer. The end.
Only european jets.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:38 pm quote
Well I finally did something. 160 main jet gives 330c uphill at 3/4. 164 gives 310 but loses a lot of speed up said hill and generally feels worse. That said, I will run the 160 and put it into service if it ever stops raining and being 35 degrees f in the morning.

I have half a mind to put the packer back at the head as it wonít really rev out anyway unless I go lean on the main jet. With 160 itís good for about 7200 rpm. Might as well take the torque then. Weíve fixed all the things that would keep it from reviving higher, I give up on that chase.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:16 am quote
Some good miles yesterday, it's definitely still needing work though. ~40ish miles. The mid throttles feel particularly rich (3/8-5/8 ). WOT feels OK with the 160 main. The plug looks rich, no sign of big lean running.

There was one point where the same throttles that normally run rich did churn out a 330F CHT despite the same throttle area being OK on the rest of the trip, so I'm really suspicious that my fuel system doesn't always deliver the same fueling. I'm tempted to run a fuel line around the whole thing and go without the pump at all and see how it runs. I think so long as I keep the tank above 1/2 it will be OK, right? If this changes things I know where to look then. It is one area where my setup is notably different than most, where most people are using the vacuum fuel pumps. If this doesn't make a difference, I'll have to pay more attention to the RPM involved - could be an atomizer issue.

For the jetting, it looks like we can probably raise the clip 1/2 setting and get some more fuel out. I don't think this is likely to cause any big grief and should help the overall drivability out quite a bit. This is my first step, then I will consider the pump-less test.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4595
Location: So Cal
Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:43 am quote
The not revving past 7200 doesnít make sense. Long shot, but is there a possibility the prior owner messed with the gearing? Did you ever actually count teeth?
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:40 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
The not revving past 7200 doesnít make sense. Long shot, but is there a possibility the prior owner messed with the gearing? Did you ever actually count teeth?
My guess is once I lean up the mid range the thing will rev higher. I upped the main to fix 3/4 throttle temps but haven't cut the middle back down again via the clip or taper.

I messed with the gearing myself, it's stock P200 with a P125 4th. I've had it rev to 8000 when I had the jetting leaner (before I discovered the temperature issues). So I think jetting will get it back there or close enough.
Ossessionato
1980 P200E, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 3676
Location: San Diego, CA
Tue Mar 19, 2019 5:08 pm quote
Not lean

CF34B7E2-6E35-4AAF-94B1-86C4B1CCFAA8.jpeg

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