Smallie clutch not torquing tight
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Ossessionato
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Mon May 08, 2017 8:03 pm quote
Has anyone ever had a clutch not tighten to spec on the Christmas tree shaft? I can't get more than 20 ft/lbs before the steels start to spin independent of the corks. Clutch has been rebuilt with new steels and corks, center spring the same height as a new one so I left it. New woodruff key, lock tab washer, new clutch nut.

I'm trying the penny in the primary trick and rear axle is locked in gear and held tight with the castleated nut but I still can't torque it down. Air wratchet doesn't do it. Pulling the Christmas tree shows the keyway depth around 3mm. Socalguy looked at an old one of his and got around 1.5-2mm.

Sorry for the shitty pic. iPhone won't focus on the key depth
So, what kind of Christmas tree do I have that it won't hold, and the keyway depth is larger than a stock 125?

IMG_0987.JPG

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Tue May 09, 2017 3:46 am quote
Re: Smallie clutch not torquing tight
MJRally wrote:
Has anyone ever had a clutch not tighten to spec on the Christmas tree shaft? I can't get more than 20 ft/lbs before the steels start to spin independent of the corks. Clutch has been rebuilt with new steels and corks, center spring the same height as a new one so I left it. New woodruff key, lock tab washer, new clutch nut.

I'm trying the penny in the primary trick and rear axle is locked in gear and held tight with the castleated nut but I still can't torque it down. Air wratchet doesn't do it. Pulling the Christmas tree shows the keyway depth around 3mm. Socalguy looked at an old one of his and got around 1.5-2mm.

Sorry for the shitty pic. iPhone won't focus on the key depth
So, what kind of Christmas tree do I have that it won't hold, and the keyway depth is larger than a stock 125?
Rattle gun it
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Tue May 09, 2017 4:47 am quote
Never use impact to torque things unless you want to damage the threads and be buying new parts...

Is the keyway depth so deep that the key doesn't engage with the clutch basket? A lot of aftermarket shafts do not even use a key, so you have me curious as to why you can't get enough torque on it and why the clutch is slipping. I have never seen that!
Ossessionato
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Tue May 09, 2017 7:40 am quote
TR wrote:
Never use impact to torque things unless you want to damage the threads and be buying new parts...

Is the keyway depth so deep that the key doesn't engage with the clutch basket? A lot of aftermarket shafts do not even use a key, so you have me curious as to why you can't get enough torque on it and why the clutch is slipping. I have never seen that!
Yes the keyway depth is so deep that the key doesnt engage with the clutch assembly. And I have seen aftermarket trees not even having a woodruff key but have never tried one.

The problem definitely is the key and taper arent holding the clutch. When I go to torque it, the clutch assembly spins around the christmas tree and key. The only moving part on this is the clutch center assembly. Everything else is locked in place. I dont have another Christmas tree to compare it to so I think my next course of action is to compare mine vs. a replacement.
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Tue May 09, 2017 7:57 am quote
bodge - fill the floor of the keyway with epoxy to raise up the woodruff key....

disclaimer - this might not be a good idea, but it might work.
Ossessionato
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Tue May 09, 2017 8:02 am quote
sdjohn wrote:
bodge - fill the floor of the keyway with epoxy to raise up the woodruff key....

disclaimer - this might not be a good idea, but it might work.
Haha. If I was stranded then yea I'd fill it and move on.

Since its a friends scoot and its just sitting I'll wait a bit and see what some new parts and more money does to it. Im just surprised the taper could be off so bad that the clutch spins around the taper.
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Tue May 09, 2017 8:03 am quote
have you tried lapping it to see how much contact you have?
Ossessionato
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Tue May 09, 2017 8:11 am quote
I lapped the tree and clutch center the first time (This is the second time i've been in the motor). I sadly didnt pay attention to how much contact was being made. I was just focusing on the high spots. Once it spun smoothly I wiped everything clean and assembled.
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Tue May 09, 2017 8:19 am quote
well at least you can sanity check the taper match if you spend a couple minutes on it. something is definitely weird here.
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Tue May 09, 2017 10:47 am quote
I told myself I was gonna walk away for a while and do other things but Voodoo convinced me to take another stab at it. Girlfriends pissed cause we have thing to do but fuck it.

I dry fitted the tree to the clutch and with no woodruff key and i was able to torque the shit out of it. So the tapers match with no clutch basket in the way, but with it installed, then the tapers don't match.

So is my tree too short? Is something in the clutch basket sticking out and making it too large? Is the clutch center incorrect for that basket?

IMG_0990.JPG
Dry fit, no woodruff key, just tightened it with a small wratchet and the clutch was on so tight I had to beat it apart with a mallet.

IMG_0986.JPG
Pic last night of christmas tree shaft poking through the clutch basket.

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Tue May 09, 2017 11:17 am quote
All the same parts that came out of the bike? Might just be too wimpy of a clutch to resist the torque. I don't like binding the gears, normally a basket holder is enough...
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Tue May 09, 2017 11:31 am quote
TR wrote:
All the same parts that came out of the bike? Might just be too wimpy of a clutch to resist the torque. I don't like binding the gears, normally a basket holder is enough...
First go around everything that was in the motor I put back in the motor. It all looked ok. Second time in the motor now and I've replaced the sacrificial bits on the clutch.
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Tue May 09, 2017 11:47 am quote
It looks like something(basket?) is too long or something(xmas tree shaft?) is too short. You can't easily measure the whole assembly w/ the basket in the case but I grabbed a few parts to see what's what. The tight clutch to tree assembly still had about a millimeter of end clearance with everything snug and taper fully engaged.

Img_7715.jpg
all three pieces assembled
if I trap the tree I could torque it tight
don't care if other stuff spins initially

Img_7718.jpg
you should have this much gap to tighten taper w/ nothing binding

Img_7721.jpg
check your parts against these

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Tue May 09, 2017 12:59 pm quote
Is the clutch basket all the way through the bearing and snug up against it?

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Tue May 09, 2017 1:09 pm quote
Good point and it will have to be in order to get the snap ring on that goes here to the left in the groove on the basket hub, on the far side of the bearing.

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Tue May 09, 2017 5:16 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Is the clutch basket all the way through the bearing and snug up against it.
Also make sure the bearing is fully seated in the case.
MJRally wrote:
I told myself I was gonna walk away for a while and do other things but Voodoo convinced me to take another stab at it. Girlfriends pissed cause we have thing to do but fuck it.
...
Convinced you? More like merely suggested some possibilities, you must have convinced yourself . Regardless, it sure looks like somebody finally had to go do something important w/ their girlfriend.

And by now I'm so curious to find out the answer

Oh well
Ossessionato
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Tue May 09, 2017 5:37 pm quote
Yes the basket was seated, through the bearing with the little circlip installed.

With everything pressed together I have under a mm gap.I got a basket depth of 37.5mm and tree to clutch depth of 38mm.

Tomorrow I'll swing by Socalguy's and try his spare tree and see what measurements I get.

IMG_0992.JPG

Ossessionato
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Tue May 09, 2017 5:38 pm quote
Hardly a gap. This was just pushed together by hand. No nut installed

IMG_0993.JPG

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Wed May 10, 2017 8:46 am quote
Ruht-roh. Don't let my project drive a "gap" in your relationship...
Ossessionato
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Fri May 26, 2017 9:07 pm quote
So two weeks later im at it again. Spent 6 hours on it and calling it a night. Initially I thought it was the tree. Socalguy loaned me a stock tree and while the woodruff key depths were different, it still didnt make a difference the clutch still spun. Take a look at the video clip to see the steels spin independent of the corks (which are locked in place by the basket).
Then i looked at the taper and shape of the trees. Different, but still didnt fix it. Then i looked at the clutch center. Different layout but still the same end result. Then i finally tried installing just the clutch center (Lets call that one #1). Magically it torqued down tight no problem. Switched to an assembled clutch (clutch center #2) and the problem shows itself again. Tore the clutch apart and used just clutch center #2. That torques tight.

So the only thing thats installed in a clutch is the spring, steels, and corks. The spring I compared to a brand new one and its the same height and feels the same when compressed. Steels are used but straight, corks are brand new as of two weeks ago. I'm thinking I need this SIP tool

http://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+compressor+12mm+_93312000

to try and install the center first, then compress the spring and install the corks AFTER everythings torqued so it wont have a chance to spin.

Anybody got anything?

IMG_1072.JPG
old one in red. Socalguys in black. Notice the slope to it. Turns out that doesnt mean shit and I still have the problem

IMG_1075.JPG
Woodruff key depth. Socalguy's loaned tree on the left. The old one on the right. Keys are the same 2.8mm. Still doesnt solve anything though

IMG_1084.JPG
Bottom of clutch centers. #2 is on the left. #1 is on the right

IMG_1086.JPG
Clutch center #2 torquing down no problem. Notice no spring, steels or corks

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Sat May 27, 2017 1:41 am quote
all i can say is these machines are crazy and I wish you the best in fixing this damm thing.. Voo doo and I were talking about it and it baffles me me from afar ...
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Sat May 27, 2017 6:49 am quote
Since it torques down without the spring, steel and corks in place, but won't when new or old ones are on, seems like it has to be a problem with the basket ... warped maybe, and not letting the clutch sit all the way on the tree.

Wish I had a spare basket to lend ya...
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Sat May 27, 2017 7:23 am quote
You could try and build the clutch inside the motor. Pm me if you have any questions.

image.png

Ossessionato
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Sat May 27, 2017 8:31 am quote
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I need to build it in the motor. I just need that tool. Anybody got one lying around?
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Sat May 27, 2017 9:07 am quote
I'm with socal - something wrong with the basket.

If you don't fix it now it may come back to haunt you.
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Sat May 27, 2017 9:25 am quote
MJRally wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I need to build it in the motor. I just need that tool. Anybody got one lying around?
I've got one you can borrow.
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Sat May 27, 2017 9:32 am quote
oopsclunkthud wrote:
MJRally wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. I think I need to build it in the motor. I just need that tool. Anybody got one lying around?
I've got one you can borrow.
PM sent
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:31 am quote
To catch everyone up to speed I did need to build the clutch in the motor. Many thanks to ccsp03 for giving me the idea on how to make a tool. I didnt have the dimensions so my tool was too short, but Patrick being the good dude that he is mailed me his tool priority mail. One thing to note, you'll have to grind down the folding tab washer some so that it will fit inside the clutch extractor tool. I took it down on the outside so it could fold against the nut but not be so wide that I couldn't screw on the extractor tool to the threads. Then I built the clutch in the motor. So far everythings holding and runs fine. I still feel the clutch slip a bit when kickstarting it so the problem is still there.

I'm going to get the carb dialed in and then dick with it on the bench while the frame is off for paint. With stock gearing i can't get into the pipe in 4th so Socalguy convinced me to order a short 4th. That order was placed today and when everything comes in, I'll re-try building the clutch with a stiffer clutch spring and scuffing up the steels some. Anyone else have any other ideas to eliminate the slip?

IMG_1121.JPG
Clutch tool measurements. Its essentially a tube with a bearing welded onto the end of it. Put a clutch extractor inside it and then run the bolt through it all. That allows you to compress the spring. If the tube is too short like mine was, you'll pop th

IMG_1111.JPG
Folding washer ground down on the outside so I can get an extractor tool on the threads

FullSizeRender.jpg
Center tight and folding washer out of the way

1.jpg
Tool installed holding the spring and first steel plate down. I had to bottom out the spring so that everything would fit.

IMG_1113.JPG
Clutch assembled and I said "hope this works" for the 19th time

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:20 am quote
Get a basket too. Clean start.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:25 am quote
Especially because you have to go deep for the tree anyway!
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:06 am quote
Stiffer springs in smallie clutches are terrible. Hard to pull, cable stretch, arm flex makes them barely disengage. If you are making enough power to slip the stock clutch, upgrade to a superstrong or something like that...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:32 am quote
"hope this works"
So where we at.... the mystery deepens?
Ossessionato
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:33 am quote
TR wrote:
Stiffer springs in smallie clutches are terrible. Hard to pull, cable stretch, arm flex makes them barely disengage. If you are making enough power to slip the stock clutch, upgrade to a superstrong or something like that...
During the 10 minutes or so I rode it it never felt like it was slipping but when I was trying to kickstart it I could feel it slip. One kick would be firm and then the next would feel like the clutch cable was tightened too much. Then I'd kick a few more and it would be firm again.

I'll look and see what a BGM will run.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:53 am quote
You can run the xl2 style but you'll want the cover for that as well. 6 spring setup.

But I think you still have a basket/tree interaction problem. What kind of setup is it overall? The Polini single spring has worked well on my DR kit. The Malossi spring caused drag.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:01 am quote
I'll look into each and get some order placed Monday so it'll be waiting upon my return from work.

Current setup is a 133 Polini top end, PM expansion pipe, race cut crank, 24mm dellorto round slide carb, 24mm reed manifold, et3 flywheel and electrics, stock primary, stock Christmas tree, stock gears, standard clutch spring/corks/steels.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:18 am quote
If you go PK clutch. You'll need to shim the tree and the kick start quadrant. Then mod a ET3 clutch cover to clear the clutch after it gets raised up.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:33 am quote
Yeah you probably need more holding power than the Polini single spring.
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Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:57 pm quote
Check with Socal and mrj, I think their setups are close to yours.
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Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:32 pm quote
Late to the thread but I'm using a BGM superstrong clutch that is made for a DRT tree (short 4th) with a standard pressure plate and stock clutch cover. I did grind a little bit off inside the clutch cover for clearance of the DRT primary basket.

You will have to build the clutch inside the engine, I picked up the combo bgm tool and it works great.

It might be overkill but I wanted to future proof the engine.
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Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:56 pm quote
darn now i know why my kisckstart is tend to slipin

IMG-20170621-WA0019[1].jpg
i have difficult in tools so i have to made one to change the clucth plate

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