Cylinder vs crankcase (reed) induction
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:55 am quote
Looking good. Still not as big as some but if you just tidy and blend it all in it will do.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:04 pm quote
In an ideal world, I would have started with a stock rotary valve, but with the existing handiwork, my only option is to go bigger, but then I'll need to grind away at my new reed block housing. Not something I relish, but if it improves the end result, then so be it.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:39 am quote
Inlet mods.....continued
There is a set of 200 cases on UK eBay at the moment, as can be seen in my first picture. The inlet length is not very large, but the blending into the crankcase looks interesting. If you have modified cases for reed induction, did you go to this extent, and can you suggest any additional work this guy could have done?

I've ground a lot of material out of my own cases, and want to make sure I've not missed any tricks. My inlet so far is shown in the second picture.

Screenshot 2018-12-30 12.19.27.png
Other person's inlet. Smaller, but blended deep into the crankcase.

20181230_123045.jpg
My inlet, matched to the S&S reed block. Bigger, but not much blending yet.

Molto Verboso
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Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:13 am quote
No need to go quite as far as that one but all traces of the rotary pad should be removed.
Hooked
PX 150
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Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:47 pm quote
I havent gone that far with mine mainly to keep strength in the casings.
The more you remove the more you weaken.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:49 pm quote
I'm bored of Dremeling
I'm going to call time on the inlet enlarging and reshaping. It's big enough and it's blended in nicely to the S&S reed manifold. I did hit the JB Weld in a couple of places, but it's thick and very solid. Next job is to install the dummy bearing and crank, and then start measuring and setting the cylinder height. I'm hoping to find some nice port timings and compression ratio, without having to get the head machined.

20190106_202702 (1).jpg
Should be good for a 35mm PWK or TMX

Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:05 pm quote
Came out really nice!! Don't forget to smooth out the pointed section just like in my photos (Jack's advice) to ease the "charge" flow...

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29257753_2044412992240383_7986889035811389440_o.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:27 am quote
Hello SaFiS, I have done that, but the photo doesn't show it too well. I don't want to get too close to the crankcase stud.

BTW, did you receive your CMD backing plate and input shaft support? Tell us about it if you did. I'm thinking about how to strength my cases, and trying to find an external method, rather than the internal plate like you have.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:13 am quote
Crankcase transfer ports
So I can see clearly how the original ports in a 200 case will present an obstruction to the flow of charge into a Malossi cylinder. How important is it to fill these first, then re-cut to the Malossi profile? How much difference to the power potential does this make?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:38 pm quote
I think there is only one spot that needs filling. It's not hard to do, and you would have to think if it was left hollow it would upset flow on that one side. I used JB weld the first time and eventually it came loose (guess I didn't prepare it well enough). But because of the shape it couldn't go anywhere and didn't present a danger.
Molto Verboso
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Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:33 pm quote
Cheers Ginch,

on my one, I have two original ports which create a hollow behind the packer, one on each casing. The flywheel side is the bigger obstruction and the one on the clutch side 'could' be dealt with by grinding the packer and cylinder a little bit. I'm inclined to do both.

My experience of JB Weld is very good and would happily use it over and over. The only time I've had problems is with that putty stuff that comes as a 'stick' which you mould into position after playing with it to mix the two parts.

Talking about Malossi packers, I bought two (both BGM). The 1.0mm is a perfect match to the MHR cylinder, but the 0.8mm would need a lot of work, as would the base gasket that came with the kit. Are there differences between an MHR and a Sport in terms of base transfer shape and size? The packers are sold as interchangeable.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:20 am quote
I'm pretty sure they are both the same in the transfer shape area.

This is interesting and a pretty liberal use of two part filler. I asked them what the product was and it was super expensive, like 5 times the price of JB but no higher temperature rating. Anyway I do like their preparation (the divots) which must make it hang on a lot better.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/WhiteOneRacing/photos/?tab=album&album_id=951767151590709

Clipboard01.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:28 am quote
That looks good, but I'll need to recover an old Facebook account to see the detail. The filling of the ports and the grinding out will be a doddle. My only concern is how to achieve perfection at the base gasket surface. Inevitably, the JB Weld, or alu weld for that matter, would not be flush, so machining it back to get a perfectly flat surface would be tricky. I'm thinking a bridge across the ports which can be removed when the JB is solid, but just before it goes off.

Any tips chaps?
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:50 am quote
Ginch wrote:
I'm pretty sure they are both the same in the transfer shape area.

This is interesting and a pretty liberal use of two part filler. I asked them what the product was and it was super expensive, like 5 times the price of JB but no higher temperature rating. Anyway I do like their preparation (the divots) which must make it hang on a lot better.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/WhiteOneRacing/photos/?tab=album&album_id=951767151590709
I have just noticed that the right hand side port in this picture is smaller than my MHR, so I'm assuming this is the old Malossi 210? The MHR right hand port mirrors the left hand, which makes it taller (towards the top right stud), with the same straight angle at the top, rather than the curve shown in the picture. It almost lines up with the original port on the right, which is why I may only need to fill and grind in the other two places.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:37 am quote
The packers SIP has are "all over the place", with their shitty translation. Some are cut for the old 210/MHR and some for the new Sport/MHR. Cause of this, I got my set from MRP just to be safe. No 0,8mm though in the set. For a friend's old 210 I didn't know what to get, so I ordered the ones which seemed to have the smallest ports in the photos...

Your porting should probably look like mine...
Ossessionato
05 Stella, '62 VBB, 76 Sprint V, 63 GL
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Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:26 am quote
I've tried the dimpling like those guys did before. It was harder than one would think.

Anway, here's the photo from their FB page for those who don't use facebook at all (as opposed to having accounts, but not reading or posting, like me).

dimpling.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:01 am quote
Safis does some beautiful work. Just copy that as close as you can.

The dead space in the transfers need to be filled for the best results. I have found a decent epoxy metal on a keyed surface will last many years. And as said even if it does come loose it stays in position until the cylinder is removed.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:40 pm quote
Jack221 wrote:
Safis does some beautiful work. Just copy that as close as you can.
He does! Safis, what's your secret? Any specialised tools?
Molto Verboso
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Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:12 am quote
Agreed. Very lovely porting work by SaFiS.

Regardless of whether you use chemical metal or proper alu filler weld, you will undoubtably fill slightly beyond the gasket sealing face. Once you have ground out the port shapes, how do you get the gasket face back to where it needs to be? Is it best to have it machined perfectly flat by a shop?
Ossessionato
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Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:16 am quote
chandlerman wrote:
I've tried the dimpling like those guys did before. It was harder than one would think.
D-type Jaguar engines running at Le Mans had rifled inlet ports. Probably just as easy !!
Molto Verboso
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Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:25 am quote
swa45 wrote:
Agreed. Very lovely porting work by SaFiS.

Regardless of whether you use chemical metal or proper alu filler weld, you will undoubtably fill slightly beyond the gasket sealing face. Once you have ground out the port shapes, how do you get the gasket face back to where it needs to be? Is it best to have it machined perfectly flat by a shop?
When I do the filling I bolt a metal plate and an oiled gasket over the gap and back fill up to it. With a stock gasket on first it just peels off from the epoxy after it has cured. Surface needs no work before final fitting the cylinder.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:06 pm quote
You guys are making me blush

@Ginch: No secrets. Steady hands, everything I've learnt from my father over the years and our trusty 30+ years old Kawasaki air grinder along with various carbide bur bits. One thing to know when grinding aluminum. Dip the bit in used engine oil. It helps with cooling and prevents it from getting "stuffed"...

@swa45: For the gasket face I used a stock cylinder, after grinding the locating pin, along with Chemico grinding paste. I get the cases mounted vertically and with just the weight of the cylinder I just rotate it left to right on the gasket surface until I get an even face. First with the coarse paste and then with the fine paste...

29315106_2044413855573630_9073756623465349120_o.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:12 pm quote
Interesting idea using oil on the bit. Will give it a try very soon!
Ossessionato
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Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:24 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Dip the bit in used engine oil. It helps with cooling and prevents it from getting "stuffed"...
I have used WD-40 to lubricate my bits in the past, but will give engine oil a shot this weekend and see how it compares.
Molto Verboso
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:18 am quote
Regular RD350 reed block and petals or Tassinari?
I'm done with the crankcase porting. It took an age to layer up the JB Weld as it was taking the best part of a day at a time to harden. I'm happy with the result and no longer do I have any signs of the original P200 port shapes.

I'm now assembling the remaining bit for the final build and I'm shopping for the reed block and petal to go into the S&S manifold. I'll also need the correct adapter for a PWK 35AS.

Question to you all: cheaper RD350 reed components eg. BGM or Tassinari v4? Is the Tass product really that much better, and if so why? I'm aiming for at least 30HP from this is that helps.

Regarding the carb, I'm dead set on the genuine Keihin article, but is there a decent, lower cost replica eg. OKO?

Last edited by swa45 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:25 pm quote
Re: Regular RD350 reed block and petals or Tassinari?
swa45 wrote:
I'm done with the crankcase porting. It took an age to layer up the JB Weld as it was taking the best part of a day at a time to harden. I'm happy with the result and no longer do I have any signs of the original P200 port shapes.

I'm now assembling the remaining bit for the final build and I'm shopping for the reed block and petal to go into the S&S manifold. I'll also need the correct adapter for a PWK 35AS.

Question to you all: cheaper RD350 reed components eg. BGM or Tassinari v4? Is the Tass product really that much better, and if so why? I'm aiming for at least 30HP from this is that helps.

Regarding the carb, I'm dead set on the genuine Keihin article, but is there a decent, lowest cost replica eg. OKO?
Where are the pictures???!!!!


This is the biggest Polini PWK (34mm). I have a 28 and the quality seems to be much better than the OKO imo. https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/carburettor+polini+34mm+_p2010171

I went for the cheaper reeds. 1 because I hadn't used reeds before, 2 because I'm cheap! and 3 because you can use them for a while and wear them out, and leave yourself a small upgrade path to the V-force in a year or two's time. It's the last reason I think is the most persuasive.
Ossessionato
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:47 pm quote
With all the work and top quality parts you've used thus far, cheaping out on the reeds seems short-sighted to me.

A buddy of mine just swapped his regular RD-350 reeds for the VForce4's and had to up-jet because he was immediately lean, so they clearly draw in a noticeable amount more air.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:11 pm quote
Exactly! He's doing a big upgrade and it'll be amazing. Then in a year's time or whatever - when he's used to the power - a smaller, affordable, easy upgrade that's guaranteed to give a boost. I think that's looking into the future rather than being short-sighted.
Molto Verboso
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:49 pm quote
With all that you have done the carb/reeds will be limiting the power. The bigger the carb and better the reeds the faster it will go.
Is anything at 38 or 39mm not an option?
Molto Verboso
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:21 am quote
@ginch - pictures in a couple of days. I have the crank in at the moment to check on timings, so photo opps not so good. Looking like the 1.0mm packer + 0.2mm base gasket is putting the piston at least 0.3mm out of the bore at TDC. To be expected with a 60mm stroke. I have a 0.5mm head gasket coming, so should be bang on 1.2mm SBC with the stock head. ED looking like 187 and TD at 131, so 28 BD. Not sure that's quite where I want it, so a 1.5mm base packer may be on the cards, which will also put the piston just below top of bore at TDC as per expectations with this kit and crank.

@chandlerman - believe me, I'm with you, but I like to know that the more expensive stuff is genuinely better, not just marketing hype or hearsay, or might only give me a tiny incremental benefit at twice the price.

@Jack - I've not bought the carb yet, so bigger is always an option until I pull the trigger. I'm not sure that S&S does an adapter for a 38mm PWK or 39mm Dellorto V series.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:05 am quote
What gearbox and tyre are going on this? 187/131 is quite a lot. Max power will be not far from 9,000 rpm, maybe just over with that big reed block. A stock P200 box and trye would be doing 95mph (which is clearly never going to happen).

A 22/68 PX150 primary would bring that down to a more realistic 85mph.

The Germans all run the MHR221 with just a 0.2mm base gasket. I know there must be a good reason for this but still I've tried mine with 5 different variations of packer and gearing (so far) and from all the experiments it struggles with stock gearing when over 0.5mm base packer. Last time off I decided the newness had worn off, so did some Dremel work in the transfers and exhaust, mine is now a little 'off piste' and going pretty well......but it's not done yet!

Last edited by Jack221 on Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:11 am quote
One way to look at it is that the VForce-4's are basically twice the flow of a standard RD-350 block, with 8 petals (two V's) versus a standard 4 petal setup.
That's a lot more air, any way you look at it.

I understand the idea of knowing there's a path to Moar Powarr! down the road, but also see no reason not to do it Right from the outset, budget notwithstanding, unless you're wanting to create the opportunity for more hours of re-tuning the carb once you make that upgrade.

Now I'll also admit to having left myself with some upgrade wants on my Sprint, e.g. the clutch and, honestly, the top end. I tried to use parts I had on my shelf where feasible, but that's because the project was already over budget and I have other projects that need to go over budget, not because I wouldn't have liked to have gone with other options.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:27 am quote
Current plan is PX125 box, but with 57T 1st from a P2, 22/68 primaries, and I already have the 3.00 x 11 SIP rim with 130/70 Heidi K61. Not thinking 95mph on a Vespa, but at least a genuine 80 would be fun !!
Molto Verboso
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:03 am quote
Yeah, as I thought, 187/131 won't pull that gearing with that huge tyre. If you drop to a 20/68 clutch cog you will be right in the zone.
21/68 might be acceptable if you don't weigh so much but will still possibly go flat for a moment when dropping into 4th.
I would get the biggest carb that fits (hopefully that's a 39mm) and VForce-4's. If you have to have noisy motorbike reeds then might as well do them properly. If all is as it should be this set up will do GPS 85mph even without additional port work.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:43 pm quote
Thanks Jack. I have 20 and 21T clutch gears at the ready. The other consideration is that I want to use a box exhaust. BGM BB Sport at the very least, or S&S if I need to go gourmet.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:37 am quote
Donít forget Marcoís boxes
www.pipedesign.de
Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:14 am quote
Thanks SaFiS. I actually meant PD, not S&S. The S Box range looks really good, but I need to select the right one for the MHR setup. Maybe I need to drop the cylinder and the timings like Jack suggested, using a fat packer under the head. The MRP head with the built-in 1.5mm packer could be the way to go, but then I'd be getting closer to a touring setup. So many variables
Ossessionato
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Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:59 am quote
SaFiS wrote:
Donít forget Marcoís boxes
www.pipedesign.de
I'd still love to pick up an S-Box at some point, it just keeps not making the list.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:10 pm quote
A few decisions to make for sure. Would seem like our kits are quite close in their original measurements. Mine would have had 188/131.7 with a 1.2mm base. Although my 221 is rotary and yours is reed and this is a significant difference in crankcase compression (affecting everything port wise).

With a big box type exhaust and the 22/68 huge tyre gearing, more of a touring set up might be better. Will still rev to 8000 easily. 0.2mm gasket only and head gasket thickness to put the squish where you like. Either way you're going to be impressed.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:19 pm quote
So lower timings of 184/128/28 can be achieved by dropping the cylinder, with the piston sticking out of the bore by 1.3mm at TDC. This will suit a Big Box Sport or S-Box, but would my ideal carb be a 34/35, or am I still better off in the 38/39 range?
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