Cylinder vs crankcase (reed) induction
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:36 am quote
Once you've ridden this you'll be worried about that clutch. Will be ok for now but if you get a Superstrong as soon as you can, the banded clutch will still be good for another project.

16 degrees by 6000rpm is a safe place to start. Running low timing is needed, as so much fuel is getting in it's difficult to control the temperature.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Location: UK (South East)
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:38 am quote
Jack, we'll see how the clutch performs. It's this one, but it will have CR80 plates and optionally 10 springs installed:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+sport+_93404000

I would love a Superstrong (or SIP Ultrastrong) at some point for sure.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:46 am quote
Really taking shape now
I went with a 1.0mm base packer and 1.0mm head gasket in the end. Without the Malossi base gasket, the cylinder gets a 0.8mm lift.

Vital stats are:

ED = 185.58
TD = 129.00
BD = 28.29
SBC = 0.85-0.9mm
Ring gap = 0.22mm

What the hell. I can always change it if I don't like it, or if I want a comfortable cruise, I'll just use the Pinasco 225.

I did manage to get the piston ring to move freely in the groove and then after putting it all together, I read something about Malossi rings needing to be slope side up. Now I didn't notice a difference in the ring profile from one side to the other. Does that only apply to the old kits with Asso pistons, or does it still apply with the newer Vertex?

motor.jpg
Couldn't resist a mock-up with the reed block and carb :-)

Screenshot 2019-06-14 at 19.38.36.png

Addicted
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 566
Location: California
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:50 pm quote
that looks nice swa45 but I can't see the Mighty Kong........... Is that a hose barb for a fuel pump?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
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Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:16 pm quote
Looking good! I've had a close look and both sides of the ring look the same to me... must be the old one being referred to as you say.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:50 pm quote
The ring in mine I'm sure is a concave one and the slot was quite tight too.

All looking good. Dining table is exactly where fine art should sit.
How was the pressure test? New hub is a nice finishing touch.

I'm soon to be doing revision 8 on my MHR, which is really close to revision 1 but now the cylinder has had quite a bit of Dremel work, so not the same anymore. You'll be changing the packers a few times before being happy with the pull.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:04 am quote
hibbert wrote:
that looks nice swa45 but I can't see the Mighty Kong........... Is that a hose barb for a fuel pump?
@Hibbert, yes it is. The previous owner of the cases had installed it, but I've no idea what sort of carb setup he had. I took it out, cleaned everything up, then reinstalled it with a new seal. Not sure if I'll need a pump though, as the float bowl of the PWK looks to be in a good position.

kong.jpg
Here's the Mighty Kong in situ

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:38 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Looking good! I've had a close look and both sides of the ring look the same to me... must be the old one being referred to as you say.
Cheers @Ginch. My OCD was telling me to dissemble the top end and check the ring for differences top and bottom. Hopefully that won't be necessary.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:43 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
The ring in mine I'm sure is a concave one and the slot was quite tight too.

All looking good. Dining table is exactly where fine art should sit.
How was the pressure test? New hub is a nice finishing touch.

I'm soon to be doing revision 8 on my MHR, which is really close to revision 1 but now the cylinder has had quite a bit of Dremel work, so not the same anymore. You'll be changing the packers a few times before being happy with the pull.
@Jack, not pressure tested yet, hence the reed block and carb has not been fitted properly at this stage. I've got discs and pads to do on all four corners of my car this weekend, but hopefully I'll find time for Vespa tinkering.

Re: the hub, most bits on this build are either new or carefully sourced 2nd hand eg. PX125 gearbox. The cases were bare, other than a few bearings and bits that went straight in the bin.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:23 am quote
My casing is 1985-86 EFL according to Scooterhelp. The driveshaft seal should be on the inside, but I've put a 30mm ID seal on the outside as per older P series. I'm using a 30mm hub. How far in should the seal sit? Flush, just inside the chamfered edge, or all the in to the circlip that retains the bearing? Should I be using any type of retainer to prevent the seal from working it's way out towards the hub?

hubseal.jpg
This is how the seal is currently installed, just inside the chamfer.

Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
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Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:39 am quote
Seal is fine where it is. EFL gearboxes came in two types during the transition. Outside & inside seal. Was your axle machined for an inside seal?? Is there a small hole present on the cases below the axle?? If not, youíre OK. If yes, you need to install an inside seal or plug that hole cause it will leak gearbox oil...
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:10 am quote
Thanks SaFiS, the cases do not have the hole under the axle, so no chance of oil getting out there. The Axle does have the machining for the inside seal because I'm using the complete gearbox and axle from a 2011+ PX125.

I'll keep the seal where it is, but do I need to secure/retain it in any way?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Location: London UK
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:15 pm quote
Safis on the ball as usual. If there is no oil hole its outside seal. Pushed in as it is is enough.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:14 pm quote
SaFiS and Jack, there's no doubt about it, this is the older, external seal type. I was confused by the fact that it's a 1986 motor as far as the engine number checker is concerned. My other 200 motor shows up as 1984, but uses the later metal clutch side seal and the internal driveshaft seal, and it belongs to my 1987 PX200E.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 am quote
I've seen and read about pressure testing the crankcase using a bicycle inner tube to connect the inlet and the exhaust port. Is this a good way to proceed? I was thinking this would encompass any possible place for an air leak to show up. I can pump air in using the fuel pump hose barb which is tapped directly into the crankcase.

Am I barking up the right tree?

motor.jpg
The clutch cover will be on of course. Should the breather be blocked off?

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1454
Location: London UK
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:09 am quote
Inner tube as you described is the easiest way. Pump to less than 10 psi and see how long it holds up. Hope for several minutes.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 am quote
No need to put the clutch cover onÖ in fact itís better to have it off to see if the clutch seal is leaking. Remember, youíre not pressurizing the gearbox, youíre pressurizing the crankcase and top end.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:12 pm quote
@socal, good point. Makes perfect sense. Cheers.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:59 am quote
More delays but nearly there
Three week holidays abroad are great, but they severely impact Vespa projects. I was further delayed waiting for the SIP CR80 plates and the MRP Dumbo to arrive. I was going to modify the BGM plates for my banded SIP Sport clutch, but in the end the SIP plates seemed and looked like the better option.

The motor is finally ready for installation and then I'll get the stator, flywheel and timing sorted once it's in the bike. I decided to use one of my PX150s as a test mule, as the '87 PX200E is not ready. It's a post 2011 scooter so has the front disc and a comfy seat.

clutch.jpg

nearly.jpg

finished.jpg

Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 480
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Tue Jul 30, 2019 2:12 pm quote
Nice one.
Ive found with the sip cr80 plates that my clutch has stopped slipping and ive been able to run lighter clutch springs as a result.
FMP guides put up a video recently about trying to run the lightest springs possible.
Otherwise you can prematurely wear out the clutch side crank bearing.
MHR BGM and sip XXL are apparently to stiff and i tend to agree.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
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Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:17 pm quote
Ha, nice wide tyre setup! ;P Why not push to 130?

finished_96233.jpg

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:52 pm quote
jimscoot wrote:
Nice one.
Ive found with the sip cr80 plates that my clutch has stopped slipping and ive been able to run lighter clutch springs as a result.
FMP guides put up a video recently about trying to run the lightest springs possible.
Otherwise you can prematurely wear out the clutch side crank bearing.
MHR BGM and sip XXL are apparently to stiff and i tend to agree.
Jim, thanks. I bought the SIP Cosa Sport last year for another project but never used it. It had 8x springs, which SIP describes as "stiffness: L", whatever that means. When I rebuilt it for the CR80 plates, I added 4x stock Piaggio springs, opting to increase the quantity rather than go for XL or XXL. SIP uses 10x springs of stiffness: L in it's Ultrastrong clutch.

Only time will tell
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:59 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Ha, nice wide tyre setup! ;P Why not push to 130?
Pheasant, check out earlier posts in this thread. Original plan was 130/70-11 but I figured that the 120/70-11 was better for the power output and gearing options that I had in mind. I do like the matt black finish and the scooter it's going into is a black 2011+ PX.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:35 pm quote
The CR80 plates in mine are toast. Had 10 XXL springs and was all new 1500 miles ago. These new SIP CR80 plates I expect will be better and need less spring. SIP recommend XXL springs for over 25 bhp but should get away with XL with the increase in surface area. I'll be doing the same as you when I'm back to it.
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1581
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:17 pm quote
Jack, which clutch do you run?? If itís the BGM measure the diameter just to be sure. Itís 110mm compared to the 108mm the others are...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1454
Location: London UK
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:26 pm quote
Mines an MMW superstrong. Think its a 108. Why?
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1581
Location: Veria, Greece
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:31 pm quote
BGMís are 110mm so you have to use their plates. If yours is 108mm youíre OK for the SIP plates...
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:57 pm quote
Out with the DR 177 and in with the MHR 221
Engine is finally in a scooter, but not the intended one. The offset caused by the wide rim and tyre is more severe than I had anticipated, but it is what it is. There's no going back now. The lateral carb angle is also more than I was hoping for. Somehow I thought the shifting of the motor to the right would have got the carb more upright.

I'd forgotten that I had installed an old timer kickstart quadrant, thinking that I might put it into my 150 Super, so I've used a T5 kickstart to give it a sort of PX look. I really like it.

Once the carb is tuned and the motor is running right, I'll buy a better rear shock !!

offset.jpg

side.jpg

Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:07 pm quote
Re: Out with the DR 177 and in with the MHR 221
swa45 wrote:
Engine is finally in a scooter, but not the intended one. The offset caused by the wide rim and tyre is more severe than I had anticipated, but it is what it is.
That top photo is on an angle that makes it look worse than it is tho...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:57 pm quote
While I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of the Crazy Monkey backplate, it sure improves the upskirt view!
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:18 am quote
carb and ignition setup
My starting point for the PWK 35 Airstriker is as follows:

- Slide: No.6 as per recommendations and lots of research on GSF (stock carb comes with a no. 4.5 slide)
- Needle: BGN (stock carb has DEK)
- Clip position: 2
- Pilot: 48 (as per stock)
- Main: 160 (as per stock)

I have 45, 42 and 40 pilots in the box and a range of main jets down to 148. I also have CCK and CGN needles for some adjustment.

The carb will use the stock frame setup for air intake, with the MRP Dumbo providing the connection..

I'll be using a stock PX/Ducati ignition with a Beedspeed PK flywheel and static timing set to 26 degrees. I'll use my Kytronik at curve 8 or 9. Curves D and E are racier with static set to 28, but whilst using a box pipe, these may be overkill.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:17 am quote
Let the carb tuning fun begin!!
I had some fun plumbing in the fuel pump (the rectangular Mikuni type). When I started the motor for the first time (fired on second kick), it revved it's nut off. It was late at night, so I checked the throttle cable, checked the idle screw and bypassed the fuel pump, then went to bed thinking that I had a massive air leak. However, it had passed the pressure test with flying colours.

Today I checked the slide in the PWK and noticed that it wasn't seated all the way down, even after removing the idle screw altogether. I compared the number 6 slide with the number 4.5 that was in the carb as stock. The bottom part was different, and when I checked the order it dawned on me that I had ordered a PWK35 slide, rather than one for the PWK35 Airstriker. They are slightly different. Doh!! Deciding to try the original 4.5 slide, all was good with the idle, as the slide drops all the way into the carb.

It starts and idles beautifully, but it's lumpy when I increase the revs. It's clearly rich, so the correct number 6 slide has been ordered. There is clearly some tuning required but it's looking good so far.

The intake noise is very noticeable when I blip the throttle, but I guess that's the downside to running reeds and a big carb. The MRP Dumbo and the engine side panel/cowl makes it less noticeable, but it's still gonna wake the neighbours!!

MHR221 motor finished.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
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Location: London UK
Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:49 pm quote
Well done. You have a running MHR. Now how to get from here to set up without breaking anything.

All that plumbing is not the best look and will rub on the panel. I put fuel pumps under the tank. The old autolube hole for the suction line. No one even knows they're there.

Unfortunate with the slide, they are not cheap. The slide is about the last thing adjusted on a set up but 6 sounds more appropriate than a 4.5.

I hate the reed noise on a scooter. On my bikes no issue. I have all the reed set up ready for mine. I'll probably fit over the Winter.

Been out on it yet?
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:44 pm quote
Yes Jack, I took for a little ride around the block, and it was easy to feel the potential. I don't have much throttle control as the cable inner is too long for the PWK and the slide can probably only open by a quarter at the most. I had a Malossi long cable in stock, with the nipples soldered at both ends, but it looks like I will need to snip the barrel nipple off and use a screw nipple in the pulley to get it right.

The jutting out corner of the fuel pump does indeed hit the panel going over any kind of bump, so I need to rethink a little. I'm not so concerned about aesthetics with this temporary PX150, but I'm definitely looking to relocate the pump when the intended PX200e is ready. You mention about using the old oil line hole and grommet for the vacuum. That would mean a very long way from the crankcase barb to the pump. Wouldn't that be a problem?
Molto Verboso
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Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:53 pm quote
Reckon I can get the fuel pump mounted further round the flywheel side of the casing, closer to the CDI. This would clear the panel and would shorten the vacuum pipe. I assume it doesn't matter if these pumps are not horizontal? I've placed it where it is due to there being an existing mounting hole, courtesy of the previous owner of the engine casing.

It's way too rich up to quarter throttle and did not need any choke when I started it this evening from cold. Should I try to tune it with the rich number 4.5 slide or just order the number 6 slide (the correct version this time)? The chart shows that the pilot, the air screw and the slide have most impact up to quarter throttle, but the current slide may be too rich for starters.

jet-chart.jpg

Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1454
Location: London UK
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:53 pm quote
Pump under the tank needs about a 50cm line. Use a small bore tube is better. Most of the vacuum pumps are so over kill, 90% of the flow goes through the bypass. Never had any issue fitting under the tank and been doing it for a very long time. Even for this temporary frame, 5 minutes to take the tank out, chuck it all on the drip tray, forget about it.

No way to say this without being even more condescending than usual. If a diagram is needed to work out what to carb part to change, this jetting process is going to take a while but set up is everything, it will be worth it. Absolutely everything affects 1/4 throttle, so onto eliminating a few variables.

Copying someone else's set up bypasses this round but finding someone with the exact same setup is getting difficult these days. Without anyone to copy to get the first round done quickest. Check the float height to the book. Fit a main jet that is too big and splutters slightly at WOT. Fit a pilot jet that leaves the airscrew between 1 and 1.5 turns out (starting turning from 0.5 turn). All focus then on the needle clip (and atomiser). The exact right needle length will end up on clip 3 to run clean and clip 4 will splutter. Then onto round 2....
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:46 am quote
Jack, my vacuum barb fitting points out the back of the crankcase (not the manifold), courtesy of the previous case owner. Therefore it will need ~75cm of hose to reach the pump if on the plastic tray, via the autolube hole. It will need a ~150 degree bend from the crankcase, then the ~90 bend down to the pump after it enters the frame. Still ok?

I have set the float height. Very small margins on the PWK35, so getting it as high as possible without petrol flooding out was quite a challenge. It's still a bit lower than Keihin recommends, but that's what the installation angle of the carb dictates. That said, the Scooter & Service manifold design puts the carb reasonably level compared to the PHBH that I use with a Malossi manifold on a rotary setup.

I've decided to hold off on the slide order, on the basis that I need to focus on other aspects first. If necessary I can file down the 4.5 slide to get it nearer to the 6 that most people seem to use on this carb with a reed MHR setup.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1454
Location: London UK
Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:37 am quote
If you use small bore pipe and flare the ends in hot water to get on the barbs it will be ok. Probably good with 6mm fuel line but this pipe volume gets added to the crankcase volume. Big is better, however too big isn't.
If you leave your carb full. Fit the pump and start up squirting fuel into a bucket to be sure its pumping to your liking. *safety glasses and fire extinguisher optional.

As long as the slide is mid range (and 4.5 is) the needle diameter can be fattened up to make it work. If you run out of needle options then think about the slide.

Rich Main jet, 1.5 turn pilot and clip 3 will keep you busy for a while. If you take a quick look at sdjohn's thread you'll be covering similar ground.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
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Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:55 am quote
It's got potential
Fuel pump is now under the tank with ~70cm of 5mm ID silicone vacuum hose to the crankcase barb. It seems to be pumping enough fuel.

The scoot goes very well considering, but it's spluttering badly at ~55mph in third and fourth, and when giving it some up hills in 2nd. I believe I'm at 3/4 throttle when this happens, even a little less. I know that it's not getting to full throttle as the stock PX throttle pulley doesn't have enough range to open the PWK35 fully. I'll need one those CMD Sloth thingys to get WOT.

I suspect I'll need a no.6 slide sooner or later as the Kyajet tool suggests that I'll not be able to lean it out sufficiently between 1/4 and 3/4 with needles alone. It's clearly way too rich. The main is down at 155 (from 160), but I won't drop it further until I've tuned the lower ranges better.

The MK1 BigBox seems to be up to the job so far, but how long before it demands something better for high revs? I'm not ready to spend big on an PD or SIP Nordspeed, but then I feel that a cheaper BigBox Sport could be money down the drain.

[EDIT] needle clip now at 3 (out of a possible 5) but still BGN needle.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1454
Location: London UK
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:09 pm quote
I have a BGM quick action ally throttle pully. Works great. Some tippex dots on the handlebar are useful to show where you are. And they wipe off when you're done.

How does clip 3 feel at where you think half throttle is? As you are still rich with a very weak needle, the atomiser must be to rich. Which one you have?
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