Cylinder vs crankcase (reed) induction
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1209
Location: London UK
Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:36 am quote
Once you've ridden this you'll be worried about that clutch. Will be ok for now but if you get a Superstrong as soon as you can, the banded clutch will still be good for another project.

16 degrees by 6000rpm is a safe place to start. Running low timing is needed, as so much fuel is getting in it's difficult to control the temperature.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:38 am quote
Jack, we'll see how the clutch performs. It's this one, but it will have CR80 plates and optionally 10 springs installed:

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/clutch+sip+cosa+2+sport+_93404000

I would love a Superstrong (or SIP Ultrastrong) at some point for sure.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:46 am quote
Really taking shape now
I went with a 1.0mm base packer and 1.0mm head gasket in the end. Without the Malossi base gasket, the cylinder gets a 0.8mm lift.

Vital stats are:

ED = 185.58
TD = 129.00
BD = 28.29
SBC = 0.85-0.9mm
Ring gap = 0.22mm

What the hell. I can always change it if I don't like it, or if I want a comfortable cruise, I'll just use the Pinasco 225.

I did manage to get the piston ring to move freely in the groove and then after putting it all together, I read something about Malossi rings needing to be slope side up. Now I didn't notice a difference in the ring profile from one side to the other. Does that only apply to the old kits with Asso pistons, or does it still apply with the newer Vertex?

motor.jpg
Couldn't resist a mock-up with the reed block and carb :-)

Screenshot 2019-06-14 at 19.38.36.png

Hooked
Honda elite
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Posts: 423
Location: California
Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:50 pm quote
that looks nice swa45 but I can't see the Mighty Kong........... Is that a hose barb for a fuel pump?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6844
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:16 pm quote
Looking good! I've had a close look and both sides of the ring look the same to me... must be the old one being referred to as you say.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1209
Location: London UK
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:50 pm quote
The ring in mine I'm sure is a concave one and the slot was quite tight too.

All looking good. Dining table is exactly where fine art should sit.
How was the pressure test? New hub is a nice finishing touch.

I'm soon to be doing revision 8 on my MHR, which is really close to revision 1 but now the cylinder has had quite a bit of Dremel work, so not the same anymore. You'll be changing the packers a few times before being happy with the pull.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:04 am quote
hibbert wrote:
that looks nice swa45 but I can't see the Mighty Kong........... Is that a hose barb for a fuel pump?
@Hibbert, yes it is. The previous owner of the cases had installed it, but I've no idea what sort of carb setup he had. I took it out, cleaned everything up, then reinstalled it with a new seal. Not sure if I'll need a pump though, as the float bowl of the PWK looks to be in a good position.

kong.jpg
Here's the Mighty Kong in situ

Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:38 am quote
Ginch wrote:
Looking good! I've had a close look and both sides of the ring look the same to me... must be the old one being referred to as you say.
Cheers @Ginch. My OCD was telling me to dissemble the top end and check the ring for differences top and bottom. Hopefully that won't be necessary.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:43 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
The ring in mine I'm sure is a concave one and the slot was quite tight too.

All looking good. Dining table is exactly where fine art should sit.
How was the pressure test? New hub is a nice finishing touch.

I'm soon to be doing revision 8 on my MHR, which is really close to revision 1 but now the cylinder has had quite a bit of Dremel work, so not the same anymore. You'll be changing the packers a few times before being happy with the pull.
@Jack, not pressure tested yet, hence the reed block and carb has not been fitted properly at this stage. I've got discs and pads to do on all four corners of my car this weekend, but hopefully I'll find time for Vespa tinkering.

Re: the hub, most bits on this build are either new or carefully sourced 2nd hand eg. PX125 gearbox. The cases were bare, other than a few bearings and bits that went straight in the bin.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:23 am quote
My casing is 1985-86 EFL according to Scooterhelp. The driveshaft seal should be on the inside, but I've put a 30mm ID seal on the outside as per older P series. I'm using a 30mm hub. How far in should the seal sit? Flush, just inside the chamfered edge, or all the in to the circlip that retains the bearing? Should I be using any type of retainer to prevent the seal from working it's way out towards the hub?

hubseal.jpg
This is how the seal is currently installed, just inside the chamfer.

Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1432
Location: Veria, Greece
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:39 am quote
Seal is fine where it is. EFL gearboxes came in two types during the transition. Outside & inside seal. Was your axle machined for an inside seal?? Is there a small hole present on the cases below the axle?? If not, you’re OK. If yes, you need to install an inside seal or plug that hole cause it will leak gearbox oil...
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:10 am quote
Thanks SaFiS, the cases do not have the hole under the axle, so no chance of oil getting out there. The Axle does have the machining for the inside seal because I'm using the complete gearbox and axle from a 2011+ PX125.

I'll keep the seal where it is, but do I need to secure/retain it in any way?
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1209
Location: London UK
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:15 pm quote
Safis on the ball as usual. If there is no oil hole its outside seal. Pushed in as it is is enough.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:14 pm quote
SaFiS and Jack, there's no doubt about it, this is the older, external seal type. I was confused by the fact that it's a 1986 motor as far as the engine number checker is concerned. My other 200 motor shows up as 1984, but uses the later metal clutch side seal and the internal driveshaft seal, and it belongs to my 1987 PX200E.
Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
Joined: 17 Jul 2013
Posts: 1065
Location: UK (South East)
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:36 am quote
I've seen and read about pressure testing the crankcase using a bicycle inner tube to connect the inlet and the exhaust port. Is this a good way to proceed? I was thinking this would encompass any possible place for an air leak to show up. I can pump air in using the fuel pump hose barb which is tapped directly into the crankcase.

Am I barking up the right tree?

motor.jpg
The clutch cover will be on of course. Should the breather be blocked off?

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