Cylinder vs crankcase (reed) induction
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
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Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:27 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
I discovered that the Malossi bellows fit perfectly inside the MRP 'Dumbo' hose (or any 60mm flexi hose). I cut it back, to shorten it and to get rid of the angled bit on the end, and then 'screwed' it into the 60mm hose. Perfect fit, unlike when I tried with a stock Piaggio bellow. Fitted between carb and frame, it works a treat and so much better than with the Dumbo metal frame connector.
Every Malossi rubber bit I have bought seems to made of some super-stiff rubber, and the bellows appear to be around 10% smaller than Piaggio ones.

You can get the hose that they make the Dumbo out of from hydraulics/hose supplies places. I got some in black rubber which I think looks better, but you can also get it in clear as well. I got some 50mm and 65mm.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:25 pm quote
Correct Ginch, the Malossi bellow has a slightly smaller diameter, but that worked in my favour, as it 'screwed' into the 60mm hose perfectly. I had to use boiling water to soften it, but once on, it's a lovely tight and solid fit to the frame. The Piaggio one collapses inwards when attempting to insert it into a 60mm hose.

I'm only using the Dumbo hose because I'd already wasted my money on the Dumbo and it's perfect for the PWK35, which has a 59mm filter connection. The problem with the Dumbo is the metal frame connector, not the flexi hose. It doesn't fit the frame very well. it's way too long, and it's orientation is totally wrong for my carb and manifold.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:12 pm quote
Time to try a new exhaust
I had always intended on changing the BigBox v1.0 to a BigBox Sport or a PD box, as I think the old pipe is a bit clogged up. Decided to do it now, rather than springtime 2020, but when I went to install it, there was no way that it would fit with the centre stand, at least not without some modification. I think with the engine shifted by 1cm to the right (for wide tyre), the interference is made worse.

Anyway, while I think of a plan, I just wanted to post a photo of the two exhausts side by side. The new Sport has a much longer and fatter downpipe than the original BigBox, and presumably that's where it gets the performance characteristics that are 'like an expansion chamber'. Hopefully it will be an improvement with my setup.

pipes2.jpg

Ossessionato
1980 P200E , 2005 Stella 177
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Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:45 pm quote
What's the clearance on that pipe? Who makes it? It looks almost like the sip road xl which drags on bumps when leaning left all the time.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7661
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:24 pm quote
They also hit at the front over big bumps, speed humps etc.

MRP make a plate that moves the centre stand forward, not sure if it's just for the older models or P's as well... have a look and maybe you can come up with something similar.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:48 pm quote
Hard to believe a box doesn't fit. Does look to go much further under. Is it just touching the spring bracket?

Would imagine if the rear shock is slack it will hang down lower at the front.

With the extra fat down pipe it will go better and on a reed inlet, even better still.

Hows the jetting coming on?
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:21 am quote
swiss1939 wrote:
What's the clearance on that pipe? Who makes it? It looks almost like the sip road xl which drags on bumps when leaning left all the time.
Swiss, it's a BGM pipe. They do two versions, the Touring and the Sport. A friend uses the SIP XL on a small block 187 and yes, it does ground out from time to time, mainly on curbs. The Sport is no bigger than the original BigBox in terms of the box itself, but the downpipe extends much further forward. It's fat as you can see in the photo, so to Ginch's point, the downpipe itself can also be an issue. I'm hoping that my 11 inch rear tyre gives me some precious clearance.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:31 am quote
Ginch wrote:
They also hit at the front over big bumps, speed humps etc.

MRP make a plate that moves the centre stand forward, not sure if it's just for the older models or P's as well... have a look and maybe you can come up with something similar.
Cheers Ginch, MRP does make a plate for the PX/T5. Yet another overpriced gadget to avoid annoying problems! I'll try to get creative, but if I need to fit one of these, it won't be on this scooter, which I'm only using to jet the carb and test the engine as a whole. The intended scooter for this engine is still in grey etch primer, so during the build, I will factor in mods like this.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:42 am quote
Jack221 wrote:
Hard to believe a box doesn't fit. Does look to go much further under. Is it just touching the spring bracket?

Would imagine if the rear shock is slack it will hang down lower at the front.

With the extra fat down pipe it will go better and on a reed inlet, even better still.

Hows the jetting coming on?
Jack, I'm still getting bogging beyond 1/2 throttle, particularly on hills, and it doesn't want to wind up to high revs in 4th. This is despite dropping the main to 140, which seems low enough, all else considered. I'm trying two things now: changing the exhaust and bypassing the pump (temporarily). It feels like the old BigBox may be a bottleneck (it's 5/6 years old and has covered many thousands of miles......must be clogged) or the pump is over powering the float valve.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:03 am quote
Did you drop the float level a few mm lower than its supposed to be?
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:24 am quote
Yes I did but no noticeable change. I'm experimenting with non-pumped fuelling in order to rule out the pump from being the issue. I'll do this with the old vpipe on, just so that I'm not makes two changes at the same time.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:33 am quote
Try it but doubting the pump will make any difference. If it was there would be more issues at low rpm. And the odd puddle on the floor.

That carb needs the smaller atomiser. Think this is the root of the issue.

Did you say there were no smaller tapered needles left? A definite sign.

EDIT: Here's something I only just thought of. Are you sure you have a 2 stroke carb? The 4 stroke ones run much richer
Molto Verboso
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:36 am quote
Jack, I'm not getting any puddles or other signs of over-fuelling, leaks or flooding, and it starts first or second kick every time. I have noticed that it races a bit when first started from cold, but that condition very quickly goes away. It's as if there is a bit of air in the system whilst the pump kicks into action.

There is a smaller taper, the 'A' range of needles, but I haven't come across a single reference point amongst Vespa or Lambretta forums where an 'A' is being used. The vast majority are Bs and several are Cs.

As far as I can tell, the PWK AirStriker carbs are all two stroke, seemingly aimed at the dirt bike and ATV market in particular.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:20 am quote
A quick search says they are also on 4 strokes. Is the same carb but just some different parts.
To rule it out, post two pictures of the carb. One from the front with the throttle half open and the same from the engine side.
Member
P/Rally200
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Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:22 pm quote
I was sondering Swa45 why you did,nt go with the Pinasco VTR?

Im starting a VTR build in the next couple of months. Just some final research before i splash out
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:52 am quote
I considered it for a long time, but after all, I decided that the Malossi MHR was tried and tested with great power potential. I also got a really good deal on the MHR. The VTR looks great, but I cannot tell you any more than that
Molto Verboso
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Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:58 am quote
Time on my hands......
I'd booked a long weekend off work, but we didn't travel due to the threat of compulsory quarantining in Croatia . I decided to dust off the Vespa and have another crack at getting the BigBox Sport to fit. I'd put the scooter away back in November with it still spluttering at just past 1/2 throttle despite going all the way down to a 142 MJ, which for this setup is a bit small.

After an hour of manhandling the exhaust and moving the stand springs around, I got the BigBox on pretty good. I couldn't get it all the way up the cylinder stud, but there's only ~3mm to go. Out on the road, it was immediately obvious that it was a MASSIVE improvement over the old 2013 BigBox. It wound out cleanly in 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and quite frankly I ran out of road and balls in 4th. I got home, went straight back up to 158 MJ and went for another ride. Still clean all the way through the gears, with none of the spluttering. Unbelievable turn of speed. That old exhaust must have been very clogged and generally not up to the job for an MHR221 with a big carb and reeds. The BigBox Sport most certainly is up to the job, despite the fit and finish being below par.

I have a 160 main to try, but I'll probably need a couple of bigger ones to get it rich at the top, then work back down. The PJ will also need to go up a size or two, as it was hunting when warm and not coming down quick enough from high revs on the stand. I seem to remember dropping it to 40, but I think a 42 or 45 will be better. Going to keep the BGN needle at 3rd clip, which seems to work well with the no.6 slide.

Big grins r us. This is going to be fun !!
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:26 pm quote
You were right to be cautious. Sounds like its going just like it should. Be sure its actually spluttering at WOT before deciding on the final main jet. Believe it or not but 160 is possibly still a bit small. Pilot jet at low 40s sounds about right. If you post some sound recordings from riding we can all have a listen.

The blocked exhaust is a classic, so hard to find for sure. Going to roast it on the BBQ?
Molto Verboso
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Tue Mar 17, 2020 12:38 am quote
Yes Jack, I will cook it, paint with POR-15 high temp, and keep it for another project. The old BigBoxes were built really well and I hate to throw things away.

I need to grow some when it comes to riding this scoot. An indicated 65mph is probably only 60 in reality, which translates to 6000 RPM for my setup. I really want to push it beyond 8000 in 4th (80+ mph), assuming it will get there, but it just feels wrong on a Vespa
Molto Verboso
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Mon Jun 22, 2020 11:21 pm quote
MHR 2016 piston mods
I've got this motor in bits to swap out the crankshaft. I somehow managed to mess up the fly-side thread, having pulled flywheels on and off these things hundreds of times before without issue. While I'm in there, I'm going to install one of the new brown viton clutch side seals that BGM/SC introduced after I had built the motor the first time round.

The 2016 MHR piston has some improvements compared to the older 210 type, such as bigger windows, and whilst some of the Dremeling may not be necessary, I suspect that some optimisations can still be made, along the lines of what Worb5 used to do. Can someone (Jack?) comment please?

In line with recent discussions about piston crown burn patterns, how does this one look? The last couple of runs were with the new BigBox Sport and a 170 MJ, which I suspect is on the rich side.

MHR piston crown.jpg

Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:11 am quote
Shame about the crank. New one of the same going in?

If you look on my 221 thread there is a picture of my cut Vertex piston. Just do that. Is enough.

Your crown is ok, not going to suddenly blow up but still on the weak side. When rich enough the wash spots turn gold coloured. Timing maybe a bit low. How's the plug look?
Molto Verboso
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:30 am quote
Yeah, same crank. Mazz 60mm bell. I tried to get the S&S version with even more material removed, but their payment system let me down.

Thanks for the steer towards your thread. I'll take a look. Meanwhile, here's the old crank thread. I honestly don't know what happened, but the nut got stuck half way off. It wouldn't budge any further, so I had to use an impact wrench in the end. Destroyed at least half the thread. Anyone think it can be used again, or just bin it? I might keep the clutch side web as a spare.

crank.jpg

Molto Verboso
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Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:09 pm quote
Jack, how much would you take out of the side ports? The pictures I have found of Worb5 and similar mods to the old Malossi 210 piston show the left hand window taken down to the same level as the roof of the gudgeon pin hole.

* How much is too much from a stability perspective?
* Should I Dremel exactly the same on both sides of the piston?
* Anything to do on on the two windows on the boost port side? They are clearly already bigger than the old 210 pistons.

Picture of my stock piston below, with my plans for the Dremel.

piston7.jpg

Molto Verboso
62 VBB1T Round Tail W/ leaner sidecar
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:02 am quote
SWA,
Re piston:
Basically - I see similar to what Jack sees.
Tough for me to have a strong opinion - because I am unfamiliar with where the transfer ports align with the piston.
Area like A, as opposed to B, would be what I would want at all my transfer/boost ports.
About a fingernail's worth of wash.
Lack of visible wash on B side would lead me to believe a touch lean.
See comments under photo below.

There is also some timing related info you can get.
The dotted green line shows the head of your burn pattern.
That looks like you are fairly advanced to my eye.
Editors note - this is my supposition from what I have been reading - but needs vetting.
As you retard - that head (dotted green line) will move toward the exhaust port.
If you retard too much - the head will go right off the edge of the piston - and into the exhaust port - overheating the side of your piston.
Not good...

So it's possible that if/when you play with timing for temp or power reasons - you have some room to move on the retard side.
Just curious - where are you running your timing currently?

See below for a few additional comments you might look out for.
Jack can edify us if I have that wrong/misstated.
- and thanks for the input on my thread. appreciated.
-CM

mhr_piston_crown_69344.jpg
The idea is - as you add richness, the fuel will "wash" away some of the black charred stuff at the ports. A decent rule of thumb is, have a fingernails width of wash at the ports. If its black right to the edges - you are likely too lean.

Jet Eye Master
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:54 am quote
That crank might be not so bad. With a die run down it, no washer and a hard Pro nut it may just be usable. Keep it on the shelf.

Did you see the picture of my piston? Cut all 4 windows the same due to the diagonal symmetry. Boost can come up a few mm. Remember the gas is flowing from the inside. You can cut too much as these pistons are already thinner than the old ones.

Burn pattern. Get it running richer, then change the timing if needed. Probably runs fine now but won't be at max torque. Spot A is not rich enough. When correct it will be gold and clearly a spot with defined edges in the black.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:12 am quote
Thanks CM. My piston may be a little misleading in that photo. Shortly before my last use of the scooter, I changed from a clogged exhaust to a new BigBox Sport and found that I could increase the main jet size significantly. I had walked it down to 142 with the old pipe, and for the last two rides, it has been running a 170 with the new pipe. So yes, for most of the piston's short life it probably was lean. I suspect that has now changed, but it would take more use at the new jetting to show up on the piston crown. Do you think that's a fair assumption?

Regarding the transfer ports, the P2 cylinder is offset, with the ports oriented further round clockwise, so that exhaust is at 7 o'clock rather than 6 o'clock. This puts the transfers in a funny place, shown by the wash on my piston. In my estimation, your 'B' circle should come round closer to 3 o'clock, which corresponds with the start of the wash. Again it may take a few more rides for the richer jetting to show results.
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:15 am quote
Timing was at ~26 BTDC with Kytronik curve 8 taking it back by 12 degrees

kytronik.jpg

Addicted
2007 Stella 150
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:16 am quote
Reading a piston top interesting
I find the conversation on reading a piston top interesting. Going to have to get a picture of mine and post it up. Is there a reference you guys are using for reading the top? That's one of the reasons I kept the cast iron DR for now, its cheap because that's what it came with, if I seize it I can bore it out and go up a size.

Will have to see if I can get a decent picture with my scope through the plug hole. I used spray copper form a gasket on the head and don't want to break the seal. I can if I have to just have to clean it up a bit and apply a fresh coat.

About the timing front and more retard, how does that work with the variable ignition? Would you retard the static timing (base number or fixed number) or choose a more aggressive retard curve if available?
Molto Verboso
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Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:31 am quote
Quote:
Do you think that's a fair assumption?
Yep - just needs a little time.
Jack's comments expand on the "ideal" for us.
I bought a $35 camera off Amazon - wifi so works with phone.
Use it all over the scooter - and the house... One of my fave tools.
(Christopher - I use this through the spark plug to avoid removing the head, and as for timing - my assumption is - you could do either through static or larger retard curve option).
Of course a shot of the piston can also identify pinging marks early, or hot spot under the spark plug - so there can be meaningful additional value - especially as you are trying to get it tuned in.
Would be interesting to see a shot of the piston top after you dial in your jetting and run it a bit.
My impression is - if you run it hard - say on the hwy for example - for 5-10 minutes - you can see the change.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Jun 27, 2020 11:25 pm quote
Piston windows opened up a fair amount. Wonder how much difference this will make?

piston_dremel1.jpg

Jet Eye Master
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:33 am quote
Anything else being changed while it's open? Packer thickness?
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:03 am quote
No, sticking with the 0.5mm at the base and 1.5mm under the head. This gives the 0.85mm SBC and just shy of 127/184. This is due to the BBS exhaust rather than expansion chamber.
Jet Eye Master
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:59 am quote
Ideal time to make changes. If it was pulling 4th really well, could take another 0.2mm on the base. Squish slightly bigger but still ok. Would have a bit more upper mid power (right where it's useful). Easy to lift the barrel rip out a 0.2mm gasket if you don't like it. Just an idea.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:07 am quote
Have to mention - mighty nice work with the Dremel.
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:54 pm quote
Jack, having another play with packers did cross my mind. However, I'm currently at a pretty optimum 126.6/183.7/28.6 for 9000 RPM. If I move the TD up any higher, aren't I more likely to need some Dremel work on the exhaust port? I'm trying to avoid it this time round and I'm also conscious that I'd be getting into 500 PD expansion chamber territory, which isn't an option right now.

Come the winter, when I finally get the '87 PX200e painted and disc forks installed, this engine will be moving across, and at that time I might go the extra mile on the tuning!!
Molto Verboso
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Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:57 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Have to mention - mighty nice work with the Dremel.
Cheers CM. I was reluctant to do this when the kit was brand new. It's amazing how inhibitions go out of the window after a few months.
Jet Eye Master
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:36 am quote
It's worth a try. 126.6 is on the low side for a 221. As you're running a box it might rev less but have more in the mid range. If you use a 0.2 gasket, its quick to rip out if it's not better than before.

For an expansion the exhaust port will need moving to get full power but leave that until you're ready.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 1:43 am quote
Looking in my packer collection, I have the base gasket that came with the kit. It measures 0.3mm thickness, so adding this would give me 128/185/28.4

Is it ok to use Permatex 80697 (Copper spray gasket sealer) between the gaskets, engine casing and cylinder? I'm sure someone said that copper and cast aluminum don't play well together?
Jet Eye Master
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:23 am quote
Yes, never put copper anywhere near aluminum. If water gets in it turns into a battery and corrodes. Very badly and fast.
Just a thin smear of some silicon sealer will do.

0.3mm slightly more than I was thinking but still looks good on the numbers.

128 is not too high and 185/28.4 is respectable. Will still go well on any touring pipe.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:05 am quote
It's going to mess with my squish. Currently at 0.85mm, so lifting the cylinder by an additional 0.3mm will give me ~1.15mm. I'll need to drop the head by the same 0.3mm to maintain squish, but no one seems to offer thin (0.2/0.3mm) head gaskets for 69mm Malossi kits. There is one for the Polini (0.25mm), but it's not recommended for 'o' ring heads.

Option 2: Go back to the 1.0mm base/1.0mm head combo, which raises the ports by 0.5mm from current position. This would give 129/186/28.3 and is where I started. I had lowered it when it didn't run right, but it turned out the old exhaust was holding it back. Maybe I should try these timings again with the new exhaust?

Thoughts?
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