How to cheat and get a barn find.
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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:07 am quote
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:59 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
Probably. It was for SC. One of the PK forks that I think may have been shortened (but maybe not - it wasnít specified). Had the steering stops on it (aluminum bolt on).
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:00 pm quote
swa45 wrote:
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
And quality seems fine. But note that PK fork with a PX disc causes a leftward alignment shift. Some say only 2mm but I reckon >4mm on mine.
Molto Verboso
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:31 pm quote
I think some people get worked up too much about the offset that the PK fork/disc set creates. I think ANYONE would be hard pressed to notice any difference.
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:38 pm quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I think some people get worked up too much about the offset that the PK fork/disc set creates. I think ANYONE would be hard pressed to notice any difference.
Thatís the majority opinion. Plus my rear wheel will be left offset ~4mm too - so I should have Ďeccentricí alignment as SIP word it. Works for me.

My only concern is that the inspection person may not hold the same view. But the 110 on the front hides it a bit, plus mudguard is asymmetrically offset.

Unless it rides like a donkey I wonít be getting a plumb line or anything out like some people do. Iíll roll with it...
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Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:24 pm quote
Quote:
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
Swa - the fork is a PK converted - both Scooter Center and Sip sell same model - not sure if they were rescued LML or just stock PK reworked. Pheas' bought his from SC - mine from SIP. We compared and all casting marks were identical so same supplier in any event. It is plug and play - but I found it a tad long.

The lower bearing seat is stock PK height. There is a slight offset as Pheas' notes. The lower portion that runs parallel with the shock I found to be longer than desired. The SIP engineer told me it worked well with the available shocks lengths. However - I managed to take some length out of my shock - which I then matched by shortening the fork about 40mm.

This gave me a nice angle on the trailing arm, and leveled the bike for me in my set up.

Hope helpful.

-CM
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Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:17 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Quote:
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
Swa - the fork is a PK converted - both Scooter Center and Sip sell same model - not sure if they were rescued LML or just stock PK reworked. Pheas' bought his from SC - mine from SIP. We compared and all casting marks were identical so same supplier in any event. It is plug and play - but I found it a tad long.

The lower bearing seat is stock PK height. There is a slight offset as Pheas' notes. The lower portion that runs parallel with the shock I found to be longer than desired. The SIP engineer told me it worked well with the available shocks lengths. However - I managed to take some length out of my shock - which I then matched by shortening the fork about 40mm.

This gave me a nice angle on the trailing arm, and leveled the bike for me in my set up.

Hope helpful.

-CM
I used a PK shock - 195mm. And the adaptor plate that shifts the alignment up and out (top mount). I took the large rubber bush that would sit under that plate out and am using a tap washer instead (few mm thinner). Happy with the swing arm angle (to my eye, havenít ridden it yet).

It does make it hard to fit the mudguard... CM22 modified the top mount bringing the shock in tighter at the top to get under the guard. Created an angle. I had to belt the daylights out of the top of my guard to make room. Cutting holes and huggers are other options.

Cut PX fork, Zip fork, even Lambo forks can all give disc brakes. All have different pros and cons.

For PK fork on VBB the cons are:
1/ fitting the mudguard
2/ gap between horncast and guard
3/ 2-4mm leftward alignment with PX disc setup

#1 is very real pain
#2 is cosmetic
#3 is cosmetic (but some say otherwise and chase a fix with limited success)

Can buy a PX fork for VBB from S&S. Bet that would work well. Would hope so... $$$

The main reason for a PK fork is they are affordable and common.
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Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:19 am quote
2nd coat. So far so good...

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:59 pm quote
i like the colour degradation in the handlebar Brother PP, look cool as the bare metal theme
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Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:01 pm quote
koenig blues wrote:
i like the colour degradation in the handlebar Brother PP, look cool as the bare metal theme
Thanks Brother E. I just got lucky - this is how it came back from the strippers. I donít know how they cleaned it - especially the brushing or sanding - to their credit there is no grooving or damage and the bare metal is very smooth. I plan to ask them what tool they used.

But putting clear on it is like wetting a sea shell or rock - the detail in the Ďpatinaí comes right out. And a matt clear seems almost invisible.

But a bit more testing before I will say this works. Could all go pear shaped any moment now...
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Fri Aug 23, 2019 3:31 pm quote
Down the clear coat bare metal rabbit hole... care to join me?

Most important test coat on. 7 days to fully cure.

So... this product seems amazing.
https://www.maston.fi/en/front-page/technology/2k-solo

After searching far and wide for a solution I found it in NZ! There is a supplier here (who was super helpful and engaged). Random...

Here's the goals of the coat:
1/ protect from rust
2/ durable - petrol, oil, etc..
3/ maintain the phosphate rat patina

So.. to protect from rust I think Penetrol on the phosphate coat is awesome. The phosphate coat creates a porous crystalline structure (much like rust) that the Penetrol (in theory) should love. I can get it into the frame and all the seams. Use it like a primer.

But Penterol isn't durable from pretty much anything (except rust). And is glossy when dry.

But Plastikote Matt Clear (alkyd/solvent-based enamel - turps clean-up like Penetrol) seems to go nicely over the Penetrol. Tested that. And have sprayed the headset (might regret that... since finding the Two Clear).

It provides some durability, but isn't resistant to solvents...

But Two Clear is (claims to be)... But 2K over enamel????

Some patches were buff sanded, some were left alone prior to the Two Clear coat. Can't tell the difference at the moment. This is the result... (And believe me... the enamel is as cured as it could be). There is a fine 'peel'... but I don't think I mind it. It is pretty uniform and adds another texture in certain lights. The photo makes it stand out much more than IRL.

FWIW the Two Clear sprays very nicely. Have sprayed a test-patch onto bare phosphate coated panel also - pretty much invisible. Will test the Two Clear on Penetrol also... would think that would react poorly, but who knows for sure.

Will wait 7 days for this to cure and then punish it. Also see how it buff sands and try a second coat.

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Tiny can - not cheap

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Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:16 pm quote
Looking promising. Most of the texture has resolved now it is touch-dry. May have been a bit heavy on the third pass.

Also realised the peeling was really only over an area I had fairly recently tested vs gasoline. The gasoline easily melts the Plastikote - suspect it was weakened by the petrol. The texture over the unadulterated enamel is pretty good. Very slight surface texture. But I had done minimal pre-prep when applying the prior coatings - so that may be a factor.

I like it better than putting Two directly on the phosphate - which really is invisible. Barely changes the appearance of the phosphate. The enamel coats give it a thickness and actual coated appearance. Very clear, but not glossy.

Have to see how it cures...

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Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:11 pm quote
that patina is looking so fine! I'm anxiously awaiting the outcome of the 2k spray bomb. So far it looks amazing
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Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:08 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
pheasant plucker wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
That is one fine looking front end
Thanks! Could do with everyoneís input... have been planning to go black with the fork too. But not 100% sure... so options:

Fork colour options:

1/ Flat black
2/ Wheel silver
3/ Raw metal

Forget function... just interested in peopleís opinion based on looks. Iím thinking raw metal or silver may actually look the best, and that black might get lost amongst it all.
Personal preference, but on a tidy rat like this I like all the running gear, wheels etc to look super clean(check) and stockish. The raw metal could just get lost like the flat black, but the fresh silver provides some contrast and says healthy foundation just like the rest of that gorgeous front end.
Silver wins... hoping this matches the swing arm - will avoid painting that.

Need to finish as many components as I can - the frame is having some welding done to tidy a few things up. Having the extra room in the shed is gold. Hopefully have the headset and fork packed away by the time is comes back...

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Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:57 pm quote
Came out sweet. Although on the final coat the can started playing up... couldn't see any runs but it seemed like it was delivering a variable quantity of paint. Yes.. I shook the can. Lots.

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Sun Aug 25, 2019 11:22 pm quote
More prep (aka polishing)...

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Molto Verboso
One or two fun scoots....nothing too precious
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Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:03 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
swa45 wrote:
Is that disc fork one of the ones that Scooter Center liberated from the LML factory in India? If so, what's the quality like?
Probably. It was for SC. One of the PK forks that I think may have been shortened (but maybe not - it wasnít specified). Had the steering stops on it (aluminum bolt on).
Got you. Thought you meant this one. I'd quite like one for my '87 PX200E:

https://www.scooter-center.com/en/5900028/fork-with-disk-brake-complete-set-lml-classic-grimeca-style-vespa-px80-px125-px150-px200-efl-1984?number=5900028
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bare metal cafe racer
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Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:24 pm quote
Started cleaning up the frame and realised there was an alignment problem... The frame looked twisted with the fork tube angled clockwise - which I thought explained why I had so much leftward offset.

So took her to the disco! Local retro scooter shop has a jig and laser setup. Thinking I got real lucky on this. The jig shows that the fork is actually in-line with the engine mounts (the frame is bolted onto the jig via the mount) - from the back the laser hits the middle of the fork tube and likewise from the front. It's the seat tower that is offset to the left. No idea how this happened... maybe came this way from the factory? Anyway - explains why my wide tyre setup at the back looks so centred! And sitting to the left should help offset the weight of the motor which is popped an extra 10mm to the right.

Well... that's my justification for doing nothing about it and boxing on.

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Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:33 pm quote
The seat mushroom mount had a broken thread in it (was bent back). Figured it was worth a shot re-threading it... Think the original thread was smaller (feel I've read that somewhere)... anyway, grabbed the M8x1.25 needed for the mushroom I have from the PX.

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bare metal cafe racer
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Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:43 pm quote
Cleaning up the frame before 'painting'... Who says you can't polish a turd?

Actually haven't polished yet... just wet sanding. Poly-disc (fine) then 180 - 260 - 360 - 400 - 600 - 800 - 1000 - 1200.

Might be wasting my time given I plan to get it re-dipped, but figure this is the chance to get it as clean/smooth as possible.

One thing I have noticed - polishing it brings out all the imperfections that were hidden by the dull matt phosphate coat. Small dents and scratches really stand out. So hoping that the re-dip and phosphate coat hides these all again.

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Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:08 am quote
Embrace the imperfections, nay, celebrate them, for they give it character and charm.

Either that or paint the sucker.
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bare metal cafe racer
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Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:38 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Embrace the imperfections, nay, celebrate them, for they give it character and charm.

Either that or paint the sucker.
I draw the line at crooked...

And donít like rust. Brown is not my colour.
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Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:52 am quote
its not my scooter, but i would leave the imperfections visible and clearcoat them, all adds to the charm of an old relic revitalised for the road
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Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:46 am quote
Pheas'
just had a good catch up on the progress.
Finish is positively sruface-of-mars like.
Phenomenal.

Also - no three letter acronyms or 118/172/ whatevers.


On frame alignment.
May just be angle of pics - but it looks to me like there may be some twist between back half and headset in the chassis.

One way to see - even done in home garage - would be to shoot a laser from top down - or stand up against wall and shoot head on to see if tip of seat nose and tail align with headset.
Concept below.

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No frame needed - just laser it

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Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:47 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Pheas'
just had a good catch up on the progress.
Finish is positively sruface-of-mars like.
Phenomenal.

Also - no three letter acronyms or 118/172/ whatevers.


On frame alignment.
May just be angle of pics - but it looks to me like there may be some twist between back half and headset in the chassis.

One way to see - even done in home garage - would be to shoot a laser from top down - or stand up against wall and shoot head on to see if tip of seat nose and tail align with headset.
Concept below.
I thought youíd be into the laser jig setup. But there are only two things that really need to line up - the engine mounting points and the fork. So the jig is the reference for the engine mount. The laser can then tell you what is or isnít aligned with the mounts. In my case I got lucky because the fork does appear aligned. Itís the tail of the bike through to where the seat sits that is shifted slightly left/anticlockwise facing forwards.

Which as far as I can tell works out well for me. Itís like someone has pre-bent it to take a wide tyre conversion.

Oh - and note the jig is also bolted to the concrete floor. Is designed so you can take a pole and manually twist the fork mounts... if required.

I have found out I will need to have the front and rear wheel in alignment with each other when I get it certified (despite it not actually being a meaningful requirement). Thinking Iíll likely need to space the rear wheel a touch more to the left with some washers (which will promptly come off again after the testing).

Pretty sure Iíve seen a bunch of threads on scooterotica with people chasing that alignment. Plumb lines etc... hopefully not a(nother) major drama.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
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Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:10 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
Cleaning up the frame before 'painting'... Who says you can't polish a turd?

Actually haven't polished yet... just wet sanding. Poly-disc (fine) then 180 - 260 - 360 - 400 - 600 - 800 - 1000 - 1200.

Might be wasting my time given I plan to get it re-dipped, but figure this is the chance to get it as clean/smooth as possible.

One thing I have noticed - polishing it brings out all the imperfections that were hidden by the dull matt phosphate coat. Small dents and scratches really stand out. So hoping that the re-dip and phosphate coat hides these all again.
did u know that back the old day the factory put a tin and a soldering iron to cover the scratches and since tin is soft u can always smooth it with a 1000 sand paper plus its blink

good luck with bare metal and cheer Brother Pheas
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1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
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Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:16 am quote
If you can do it to an old gas can you can probably do it to an old Vespa frame

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bare metal cafe racer
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Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:49 pm quote
I have actually used some silver solder on the frame where I have welded the extra width on the engine cowl - more to see how hard it would be to do and what finish it would give. Hard to get it to blend and can see the small patch. Doing the whole frame tho??? Not happening... haha. Would need to coat the entire frame in solder. Happy with the rat pitted surface.

Final polish done... Heading back to the strippers for a dip and coat.

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This is for you Brother E! =)

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Molto Verboso
08 GTS 250, 79 P200E, 62 Allstate
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Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:01 pm quote
That thing is looking Badass. And I like the Brother E pic! Ha!
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Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:50 pm quote
Hey, if you have that much pitting, your approach is ideal to make it look cool!

I'm not much of a "patina" guy, but I really like yours!

Last edited by JimVonBaden on Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bare metal cafe racer
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Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:44 am quote
Thanks guys. Gotta work with what yah got.

Part of me wants to keep it polished - the phosphate coat will take it all back to a matt silver/grey. But the benefits outweigh the cons. But figure that getting it as clean and smooth will make that finish look better: the smooth patches had a particular sheen that I hope will contrast the pitted areas well. Before there were rough but not pitted areas that have been polished away. And as I said before, hoping it hides all the small dents and stuff that I CBF with!

At that point where I just want to get it done and riding.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:36 pm quote
Amazing project.
Molto Verboso
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Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:29 pm quote
I'm the same way as JimVB. I just can't bring myself to do the whole "patina" thing. But at the same time, i absolutely love to look at other peoples patina (who's down with OPP?). I think it looks super cool for sure, i just can't bring myself to build one. Maybe in a few more years (and if i find the "right" scooter) then i'll make it happen. I think the reasoning is because i mainly deal with the more modern P series, and patina on them don't ever look quite right, as opposed to a pre P.

I love watching this project. Keep up the geat work PP!
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Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:11 am quote
whodatschrome wrote:
I'm the same way as JimVB. I just can't bring myself to do the whole "patina" thing. But at the same time, i absolutely love to look at other peoples patina (who's down with OPP?). I think it looks super cool for sure, i just can't bring myself to build one. Maybe in a few more years (and if i find the "right" scooter) then i'll make it happen. I think the reasoning is because i mainly deal with the more modern P series, and patina on them don't ever look quite right, as opposed to a pre P.

I love watching this project. Keep up the geat work PP!
And likewise - Iíd like to have a tidy P as my next project. This was definitely a how to save $$$ move. Meant I could spend on the mods instead.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:15 am quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
I have actually used some silver solder on the frame where I have welded the extra width on the engine cowl - more to see how hard it would be to do and what finish it would give. Hard to get it to blend and can see the small patch. Doing the whole frame tho??? Not happening... haha. Would need to coat the entire frame in solder. Happy with the rat pitted surface.

Final polish done... Heading back to the strippers for a dip and coat.
now thats a happy smile Brother PP
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:41 pm quote
So it's been a while. 'Painting' time. First actual coat is on and drying.

If you aren't into coatings for bare metal then the next bit might be TL;DR...

First up... took the lot back to the industrial stripper. Didn't cost much this time round. Most just needed what they call a 'pickle'. Light acid dip then phosphate coat. Instant bare metal rat.

The headset had yellowed (plastikote enamel) so I took the risk and had that re-stripped. Turns out, they don't use physical stripping so all the marks on it are either factory (the fine grinding marks) and no idea what the brown discolouration is. But came out as before. So re-coating that minus the enamel.

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Not down with the yellow...

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Instant bare rat

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Silver fox, not bottle blonde...

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Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:49 pm quote
Played around with my test panel (which I had re-stripped and dipped).

Worked out how to go instant rust rat. Actually a good match for the headset... maybe another build tho. I'd prefer the mismatched headset and no rust.

Have re-greyed the cowl and got some test coats on it. It's with a guy who sprays 'Nanoclear' - a single component product that claims petrol/chemical resistance, UV and hard wearing + can be matt or gloss. From the US. Will see how that compares with the Maston Two.

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Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:55 pm quote
More cow bell!

Appropriate you are in the other hemisphere.
I am adjusting numbers that sound like a safe code.
You are innovating finishes.

Get that thing on the road! gonna be such a good bike.
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:59 pm quote
One issue with this round of dipping (phosphate coat) was a scale left in some of the areas of pitting. Mostly white but some yellow to orange in colour. Also some black spots and streaks where the coat had dried (unsure why it did this).

Worked out I could get a lot out with the compressor - but not all. A firm brush and water got more out, but not all.

So I took the punt and hit everything with the waterblaster... Certainly took a little of the phosphate coat off - but not much, and almost all the scale and black marks are gone.

Had to dry it all perfectly... Dehumidifier, turbo fan and heater (after towelling, air compressor and heat gun)

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bare metal cafe racer
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Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:02 pm quote
But scale off and clean as bro...

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