How to cheat and get a barn find.
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Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pm quote
Cheers lads...

Making it up/learning as I go. Not pretty, but solid and doing the trick. Doesn't need to be pretty - bonus of going bare metal rat.

School holidays and going away tomorrow - snuck a bit more in before I had to pack the gear away. Want to get it done now!

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Last edited by pheasant plucker on Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:48 pm quote
Still lining up ok...

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5456
Location: Indo
Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:32 am quote
Looking good Brother P, i am tempting to do the same, do or not do
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4825
Location: So Cal
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:09 am quote


That is one fine looking front end
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:16 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
That is one fine looking front end
Thanks! Could do with everyoneís input... have been planning to go black with the fork too. But not 100% sure... so options:

Fork colour options:

1/ Flat black
2/ Wheel silver
3/ Raw metal

Forget function... just interested in peopleís opinion based on looks. Iím thinking raw metal or silver may actually look the best, and that black might get lost amongst it all.
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:47 pm quote
I'm on the raw metal for fork.

Different note.
You may wanna have close look at clearance on shock reservoir to mud guard.
If that pivots up and catches the edge of guard - it would undue a lotta good work.

From pic - looks like it may need a little flaring at the end - to ensure if it ever did hit - it would funnel in rather than crumple the mud guard.

Std. disclaimer on photos - can be totally misleading.

Excited to see this thing come together!

Nice touch with the copper backing method!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7065
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 pm quote
pheasant plucker wrote:
SoCalGuy wrote:
That is one fine looking front end
Thanks! Could do with everyoneís input... have been planning to go black with the fork too. But not 100% sure... so options:

Fork colour options:

1/ Flat black
2/ Wheel silver
3/ Raw metal

Forget function... just interested in peopleís opinion based on looks. Iím thinking raw metal or silver may actually look the best, and that black might get lost amongst it all.
Personal preference, but on a tidy rat like this I like all the running gear, wheels etc to look super clean(check) and stockish. The raw metal could just get lost like the flat black, but the fresh silver provides some contrast and says healthy foundation just like the rest of that gorgeous front end.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:47 am quote
koenig blues wrote:
Looking good Brother P, i am tempting to do the same, do or not do
Do.

Panel beating is fun. And you know how to weld! Surely you can score an old guard to beat up? No reason to have only one guard for your bike...
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:47 pm quote
I think this split guard might actually come back together...

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Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:50 pm quote
...

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Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 104
Location: Long Beach, CA
Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:29 am quote
Making progress and looking good! way to get on it with the welding. New skills for the win
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:21 pm quote
Dude - addition to the skill set of welding makes you a beast for fab work - you were already creating lemonade from lemons with bending, folding, and a nice set of jewelers tools. Pretty damn cool
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:16 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Dude - addition to the skill set of welding makes you a beast for fab work - you were already creating lemonade from lemons with bending, folding, and a nice set of jewelers tools. Pretty damn cool
Yeah... kinda went pear shaped last night. Was rushing and messed some alignment up and accidentally cut the guard. Had to walk away frustrated. All fixable but annoying when something that seems to be going so well changes direction.

Issue is (as expected) the beating of the right side of the guard has changed the length compared with the left. Thought my welded pieces would pull it all together. But - when spot welding to the guard, the copper backing prevents blow-through. But this reduces weld penetration into whatever you back with copper. So my spots are not as strong as I would like - and cranking the guard together causes many of them to fail.

Have a solution and think it will work... just means more time welding and fixing mistakes.

Learning process...
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:36 pm quote
After drilling out welds 3 times (2 broken drill bits) I finally got the technique to get the welds to penetrate the guard and hold. Lowest settings on the welder (which is what I have been using for the rest), back the guard with the thin (~2mm) copper sheet, and a 5-6 second buzz right in the middle of the hole onto the guard metal. Let the weld pool into the hole and then finish the plug with a quick circle to bind the bracket metal. Can clamp the guard back together now.

Causes a little warping which will need a final reshaping - will wait until all the welding is done.

The best fit given the length discrepancy gives more tail on the left - easy enough to trim that down (blue arrow, 4th photo)

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Can see the spots - but only just. 5-6sec buzz.

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Little baby, set on low.

Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jul 19, 2019 5:42 pm quote
Next step...

Need to be able to clamp the guard on the fork so have to sort the 'hole'.

My cardboard template has been very helpful. Keep misplacing it though! Must make some copies... should make them out of plastic or something.

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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Sat Jul 20, 2019 6:13 am quote
Fitting the guard over PK modified fork is already it's own challenge - without two halves, at different lengths and needing to line up shock. You're welder might be set to 1, but the fiddle and fit level is on 10. Looks like you're slaying one spot weld at a time.

Having to cut your welds is a great means to get to know your welder - in my limited experience. Really educates on strength.

Keep em coming - this bike is gonna be a very cool custom machine when complete.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Looks like you're slaying one spot weld at a time.

Having to cut your welds is a great means to get to know your welder - in my limited experience. Really educates on strength.
Plenty of spots. Spot-grind-spot-grind-etc.

Havenít had to cut them - just drill out the failed weld pool to re-weld. The weld is so much harder than the mild steel tho. The drills hate it.

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Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:38 pm quote
This mudguard business is a serious pitfa... Fit damn you, before I do... have a fit that is.

So many things have to line up! Make an adjustment in one place... have to solve two new problems. Need the guard to help make the wheel look centred. Has to point straight. Has to align vertically. Can't rub the leg-shield. Don't want a weird angle. And has to maintain alignment with the shock mouldings....

As close as I can get to ticking as many of those boxes. Something like this...

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Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:56 pm quote
Think I need to try drop the nose a touch... but this will mean the rear will hit the leg-shield. Bending the rear means the sides splay out. So need to drop the rear a bit too - but the front more.

Think I need to grind the mudguard seating on the fork as per CM22.

That hugger is looking more and more attractive. Oh well... in for a penny, in for a pound(ing).
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Tue Jul 23, 2019 6:48 am quote
Pheas',
had to sleep on that one.
Looks like you thought it through and determined: Given that the shock budge has to match angle of shock - and visually you want the nose to come down - lowering guard relative to fork will buy you space at back to make room some rotation of nose downward.

So throwing following in if helpful.

On the stock guards, there is some flare at the top of the guard where it meets the fork seating and fork stem. The VBB mud guard flare is not aligned with the PK fork seat/fork stem - so the stock flare is basically mismatched and unhelpful.

As you noted - I did a lot of fork seat grinding (I had seen Ginch do same on his orig project). One extra lever you might be able to pull in combo would be to flare the mud guard a bit at the hole to allow it to sit more fully over troubled areas of the seat - if you can't grind them. This will also visually close the gap a bit from guard to horn cast and is true to the original design. (Was tough to tell from pics if you added any flare to the mud guard hole already)

To allow fine adjustment - I ground the seat down and then used washers underneath to level. Very tough to grind perfectly - so washers worked nicely. No rattle - very solid finish. Still took multiple evenings of fit and refit and fit and...

Keep us posted - your's is a 10+ on difficulty with the added shock budge alignment but looking promissing.

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This definitely makes it tougher then mine

Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:56 pm quote
Cheers CM22. It's crazy how a mm at the top translates to radical changes in alignment elsewhere. Have been just playing with alignment for the last few sessions - cutting/beating nothing, i.e. non-committal.

Working out the steps. The alignment of the flares is also contingent on the rotation of the guard left-right. So first step is to get the guard 'centred' - and have figured my hole needs shifting so the guard moves a touch left. Will start there.

No flare left on the top of the guard (except what I created to clear the shock tower). The original flare was chewed up and I beat it out - then there has been added material to close up the original hole to match the PK. Can't see flare helping as the seating is relatively flat.

I'd take a wider horn cast gap for lower guard. But general alignment/best fit in priority.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:14 pm quote
It's the best I can do... over it. I'm spent on this mudguard business. It's a bit rough but close enough. And yes, it's a %#&@ to get the wheel off - but hugging the left looks too good and I'll figure that out later... ;P

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Addicted
1980 P200E project, 2005 Stella Malossi 166 MKIII
Joined: 20 Jul 2018
Posts: 968
Location: Staten Island, NY
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:20 pm quote
Looks awesome!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7065
Location: seattle/athens
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:05 pm quote
I'd say you nailed it.

Just don't drive over any nails or screws
Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 1560
Location: Veria, Greece
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:09 pm quote
That looks awesome. Maybe extend the horncast a bit to deal with the gap??
Hooked
58 VB1T, 81 100 Sport
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 104
Location: Long Beach, CA
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:16 pm quote
You found a good balance for all the many issues you were up against. Job well done! Looks great and the snug fit with that fatty tire is tieeeeght!
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:52 pm quote
Thanks all. Honestly the most challenging aspect so far. Nothing is symmetric on these bikes... mine especially. So had to make the guard asymmetric to work. Big overlap at the back. Planning to mount the emblem to mark the centre and point straight - let the seams do whatever they will. Kinda weird solution but the easiest one I could come up with.

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Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:13 am quote
The thing about the mud guard is - it has some mystical ability to set off your OCD to solve the unsolvable.

Nothing's symmetrical, it sat weird from the factory, and the fork is too long in all the wrong places - so its a conundrum wrapped in a riddle surrounded by an enigma.

Then you realize - you've been looking at it with the bike jacked up in the air, and the camera at a low angle that would require you to be on your chest in the street to repeat.

Solution - don't lie down in the street.
Awesome unique custom job.
Looks great!

.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:27 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
Solution - don't lie down in the street.
A useful tool for every situation.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5456
Location: Indo
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:17 am quote
Welcome to the club Brother Pheas, this will answer ur question why i didnt do the 12 inch wide tyre in front (for now) and i can share to you about why my front fender have many dent, and imagine of u put a 130-10 in front which i will be doing some time in the not too far away future

Ur is awesome as always and job well done

Now have a nice weekend and cheer
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4825
Location: So Cal
Fri Jul 26, 2019 9:51 am quote
Looks great. Donít sweat the asymmetry. Think of it as art.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:14 am quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Looks great. Donít sweat the asymmetry. Think of it as art.
Iím happy to embrace the asymmetry - not that I have any choice in that matter. When I can even face my workshop and look at the guard again I might be able to think of it as art.

Perhaps aloof art...

Just want to get to the next phase. Which means I need to clean up shop... itís carnage in there again. A Vespa murder scene.
Hooked
P125x (P200 Motor)
Joined: 06 May 2019
Posts: 161
Location: Alexandria, VA
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:37 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
The thing about the mud guard is - it has some mystical ability to set off your OCD to solve the unsolvable.

Nothing's symmetrical, it sat weird from the factory, and the fork is too long in all the wrong places - so its a conundrum wrapped in a riddle surrounded by an enigma.

Then you realize - you've been looking at it with the bike jacked up in the air, and the camera at a low angle that would require you to be on your chest in the street to repeat.

Solution - don't lie down in the street.
Awesome unique custom job.
Looks great!

.
Well said, and I agree. It looks great!
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:51 pm quote
At the point where I can drop the motor and finish the frame. But had to fit the engine cowl - the wide tyre conversion meant it was gonna mash otherwise.

Had a day to smash it out. Stoked... not perfect, but works on my rat.

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Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:57 pm quote
My fold-away welding station in the carport...

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 50s x2 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7065
Location: seattle/athens
Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:22 pm quote
Score another one for PF PP, tidy job!
A little weather and nobody will know.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7006
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:27 am quote
Awesome! For a guy who couldn't weld a month ago, you're doing alright!
Addicted
Joined: 26 Jan 2019
Posts: 593
Location: california
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:56 am quote
X2.
Curved sheet metal no less.
Hooked
bare metal cafe racer
Joined: 01 Sep 2017
Posts: 443
Location: Aotearoa (New Zealand)
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:17 am quote
charlieman22 wrote:
X2.
Curved sheet metal no less.
Actually the easiest thing for me to weld with the mig. My welding is horrid - I should do a course.

But by backing the butt seam with copper sheet it makes blow-through next to impossible. The tighter the seam, the better the weld. Clamp small sections and use spots and short seams to join - big ugly welds. Then grind that flat(ish) - back that with copper and hit it from the other side (the outside). Run small seams and then grind that smooth.

I focused on lining the part that would be outside the rubber up first. The rest is ugly - but is just to hold the rubber on anyway.
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 4825
Location: So Cal
Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:48 am quote
Iíd be more than happy to be able to weld like this
Land of 10,000 Scoots Rally   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   AF1 Racing Vespa Austin
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