Jetting and timing a DR177 with Vespatronic
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Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:27 pm quote
Good solid progress.

Trying to save you time here. Don't be fooled with the AC or atomiser. The AC120 and BE5 will get you to the Rally. Just focus on the main jet and pilot.

As you can feel 130MJ is way too big and 38/120 pilot is way too small. The difference with jetting an SI carb is that there is so much more bleed over than other carbs. Every jet affects every jet. Its almost like the whole thing jets in at once.

If you weakened your main jet now with that small pilot you might have a situation. Get a bigger pilot. 45/140 would be where I would start. The first number of your final pilot jet will be 45, 48 or 50. So forget all the others.

Until the main jet is weaker the 1/4 point will feel heavy. Holding steady cruise at a fixed throttle position will show up the situation the best. Aim for 280F at 1/4 and 320F at sustained WOT (but not until you have a few hundred miles done).
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:32 pm quote
Cheers Jack,

Installed the 45/140 today, and the numbers and feel are much better. It's still too rich at the upper end, so I'll start to wind down the MJ size.

Am trying to get some miles on it...

Thanks for the advicce so far!

Craig
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:35 am quote
Changed from the 132MJ to a 125. So its 120E5/125 with a 25/140.

It's still a little rich at WOT, but it's still a bit lean at and under 1/4 throttle. Anything I can do to richen it up in the low range from zero to 1/4 throttle?

C.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:35 am quote
The 50/120 you brought, hopefully that is too much. If it is get the main jet reduced further.

How many turns out is the mixture screw when correctly set?

Last edited by Jack221 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:44 am quote
Gracias

Wilco and report back

C
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
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Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:23 am quote
Went out for about 40kms today with the 50/120.

So 120E5/125, 50/120.

It's a Spaco with the fine screw. Sunny early spring day 16-20c temps outside.

At 2.5 turns it's still a little lean down low, temps at long 1/4 throttle runs in 3rd are getting hot, EGT is 1100+ after a long run. Rich in high to WOT, I can pull the temps down by winding on more throttle (When the traffic lets me!)

Wound it out to 3.5 turns. Richy Rich City. Rich idle. Bogging/coughing at 1/4 -half throttle when cold, and boggy when winding on throttle pas 1/3 when warmed up. Accelerates hard after the bog. Rich at WOT

Back to 3 turns for the ride home. Much better. 1/4 throttle for 3km 3rd gear run, 255F peak head temp, 1080F peak EGT, 12.8-13.2 F/A. Pretty rideable. Goes rich at WOT still. Slight hesitation 6' or so off the line from stopped, needs revs. Got brave just near home and wound it briefly to 8K rpm (3 secs or so), it had more to give.

It's a lot more bike than the stock 150 was - it's not trying to pop wheelies, but I'm trying to be nice 'cos it's a new build, and it's already faster and stronger than the 150 was. Still needs to be in the right gear to be fun, but it's fun!

Next step Jack? Enough info?
Ossessionato
1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
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Location: So Cal
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:18 am quote
Iíve never had success with a BE5 atomizer. For snap off the line, leaner is better. Try a BE2.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:39 pm quote
Would seem like all is going exactly to plan. The over rich pilot jet was exactly that. All CHT readings are right where it should be for now. And she's starting to perform well enough to make you smile.

While still on the same jetting 120AC BE5 50/120 and 125MJ, continue reducing the main jet to the point that you are happy at WOT. 2 sizes under faint machine gun type splutter normally puts it at optimal. For running in, one size bigger than that, so reduce the main jet until the spluttering at WOT goes away and no more. 1/4 will also get hotter while doing this, so keep an eye on that. If 1/4 gets over 280F after this we might need to re think the pilot.

But if not, next is the pilot. If the main jet goes as expected, I am thinking the 50 part is about right but the 120 part will be too small. To save delivery time and give you something to do in the workshop, if you drill out the top of the 50/120 to 50/140 ie. 1.4mm (and scrape off the 120 number), it should be fairly close.

To set the mixture screw correctly instead of stabbing in the dark. With a fully hot engine, wind up the tickover to about 1200. Turn the mixture screw 4 or more turns out. Speed the tickover back up to 1200. Wind in the mixture screw until it gets just at the fastest rpm point. If the tickover gets too fast before you get there turn it back to 1200. Tickover then down to where the lights flicker. Based on what you've said, once set it should be 2.25 to 2.75 turns out I guess.

See how she goes. Try not to get too throttle happy. New iron cylinders just seize out of nowhere.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:39 am quote
Thanks Jack

I'll start stepping down the mains.

Thereís a 50/140 and a 52/140 in the kitbag, so Iíll switch in the 50/140 and give it a burl once the main is out of play..

Memory says your in London, is that right? Iím dropping through in a few weeks, Iíll happily stand you a beer to say thanks!

New SIP shock went on the front yesterday, and a KYM went on the back today. Freeeezing bloody cold in the garage, trying to gird my loins to do the disk conversion tomorrow.

Fuel tank is out, tap off and hung up over some paper towel. Temp tank is hooked up to the carb which has a clean rag under it. One of them is leaking fuel overnight, hopefully I'll see which one in the morning.

C
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:55 pm quote
Hopefully the disc brake fits ok. Never done much with an old front end myself but I am aware they can be challenging. With 8000rpm you're going to need it.

Beer always a great idea, you'll be in London a while before me though. I'm working away and don't get home until nearer November.

So you haven't tried the 50/140 yet? If you can rev the nuts off it while in the garage, you'll still feel the WOT splutter. Will save a bit of time for next ride out.

Getting the pilot right and 1/4 transition is without doubt the hardest part to jet an SI carb but also the most rewarding. Even though your 177 is now touring tuned, when we're done it should ride as smooth as a stock motor.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
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Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:15 am quote
Went out today for an extended run with the 50/140 (about 45km each way, mostly on the freeway). Lots of opportunity for 1/4 throttle runs in 4th.

At 5000 rpm its running high 13's to low 14's on the wideband. That comes down to 13.6 (ish) at 5200, and 13.3 at 5500 (these are all 1.4 to 1/3 throttle).

Good runs at 5000 hovers around 290ish as a cht, 5500 pulls that down to 280ish. A long run (about 8km's) of 5200 saw 308 (all these are Farenheight). winding up to 5500 cooled it a little, and going wot for a brief stretch did the same. the 308f cht also saw an EGT of 1150f.

WOT still shows as rich - 11.4 to 11.8, and cools the motor nicely, so I my guess is the main is still rich, I'm just not seeing it 'cos I'm trying (its not easy) to be nice and not wind that far too often.

It's very rideable, but theres a lean point at about 1/8th throttle - w?B goes to 15-16's, and these a noticeable audible change at that point. (I think it's the same spot I was thinking was when I'm just off the line.

Dunno what my speed was, 'cos I munched my speedo gear in the garage while fitting the disk brake, and am awaiting the arrival of a new one. My Arseometer says 5200 was about 85kmh, so tacking a fear factor from all the trucks and traffic into account, lets say it was about 80... (Kept having to unclench my teeth and arse cheeks, and tell my self to relax and be ready to pull the clutch.)

Disk brake fitted nicely, cant say the same for the Crimaz M/C, Speigler hose combination. Drum brake went back on till my next Sip order arrives with more parts...

Thoughts on the temps/jetting? It's very rideable, I'm soo tempted no wind a little harder! I'd love to richen up that very low lean spot.
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:10 pm quote
Seems like you're getting there. What size is the main jet now? I like the 50/140 so we will try to keep it.

I think we need to change the unchangeable. Drop the main jet one more size from where ever it is.

Then change the BE5 for a BE4.

See how the 1/8 is then.

Should be 50/140 AC120 BE4 118MJ?

Changing the atomiser to BE4 sadly means that your scooter is not quite as fast as I thought it might be. Probably still plenty quick though
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:01 am quote
Jack,

Sorry not to have reported back - I dropped offline to get to the Mille.

I'd dropped the E3 in at the same time as your post, and it ran pretty nicely.

I did the run up to the Mille, and the time on the Mille at 50/140 AC120 E3 122MJ?

She was a little rich still, but being less than 500km's old when I started the rally, that wasn't the worst thing.

Engine cover didn't come off for the whole 2 days. On SubEtherBass' advice I dropped the plug from a 7 to and 8, and she didn't get over 295f at the head for the whole trip, seeing speeds up to 95kmh, and running like a top. Fuel consumption was around 24km/liter.

She made it home, but started to jump out of the under load late on day 2. Unhappily, I'm pretty sure I ripped a tooth of 4th about 140km's out, so the last couple of hours were one with a cacophony coming from the gearbox, so there's a rebuild coming.

Thanks for the help!

Craig
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:10 pm quote
Made it in one piece is always good. You can be quite pleased with that. Will be nicely run in now and time to get the WOT temperature up to 320F.

Your UK trip will be soon too. Might want to get the gearbox apart and get the parts in the UK while your there. Beedspeed.com delivery fairly quickly for parts in stock.

That shouldn't have failed so soon, so either the cruciform came un-done and is now bent or the gear selector is broken and the cruciform is bent. Could be that its the wrong gear selector for your cogs/shaft/slide and now the cruciform is bent. Can be tough to get hold of the exact right selector. Really hope it's not teeth off the cogs. Too close the the casings for comfort.

The E3 is slightly weaker than the BE5, so if this goes better than the BE5 then you were rich at 1/4 not weak. You won't know accurately until you have the bottle to drop the main jet enough to get the WOT temp up to 320F. Once you get to the WOT done, the atomiser choice will be clear.

Should really get a new AC120 while you're shopping too.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:12 am quote
Oops.





If a jobs worth doing...
Molto Verboso
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 1126
Location: London UK
Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:43 pm quote
I think that might be the crunching noise.
Wasn't expecting that. Not something that happens often.
Would seem that that is the wrong 4th gear cog for the tree.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:50 am quote
The SIP Road 2.0 I put on is a nice upgrade, but to lovely long chrome tips foul the wheel if you need to take off.



While it's off for the rebuild, time for surgery.



Ground off the v brace, then we tig'd on a couple of 16mm id stainless spigots



Added a couple of captive nuts for M7 bolts ('cos a Vespa needs an 11mm spanner at all times), and some stainless bracing



If only SIP did this at the factory



I'll be a lot happier someday beside the road in the rain.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:05 am quote
Golly. How annoying.

9F03D2CF-6B42-4288-9D3E-FAAF99F656B4.jpeg

Molto Verboso
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1987 T5, 1996 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
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Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:33 am quote
Ouch!!! Maybe you should take my route...







Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:30 am quote
Poor Hanoi Jane has been languishing for a while, the cracked cases were followed by some very dodgy LML rotary cases that went very badly (would you believe a 0.35mm rotary pad gap...).

Change of tack, a glass or two of red, some frankly reckless advice from Ginch, a SIP order that would choke a medium sized horse, and we're back in the game with a stoopid new plan.



Porting, spacing and gasket making for the new plan is done. Sealing this up may be a challenge. But I like a challenge.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:57 am quote
These should flow a touch more than the DR





Yep. I see fun ahead...

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:28 am quote
First day of Autumn, 10pm. 30 degrees C. Gonna be a hot sleepless night.



May as well drop in the bearings.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:54 am quote
It continued to hot all night, and was all day.

So I got some stuff done.

(Here the link for Chrome users https://youtu.be/S7ITFVb6wbk)
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:18 am quote
Drat.

D1080964-9712-41AB-903D-90BD810A5469.jpeg

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:26 am quote
Back to the (Conversationally programmed) drawing board.

20190305_183612.JPG

Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:08 am quote
Hanoi Jane's post apocalyptic rebuild is nearly done. There have been a couple of sneaky upgrades that should make her a little more "interesting".





and tonight I got off my arse and got the engine bolted back into the frame.



Progress.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:55 pm quote
Gt6MK3 wrote:
Progress.
All in typically Dark Lords timely manner.

Looking very nice and shiny!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Apr 27, 2019 7:34 am quote
Ah the optimism of "youth".

6 weeks later, Crimaz front disk is fitted, Liztor selector box is fitted and somewhat fettled, Sip quick gear roll is fitted (headset dremmeled to fit), custom throttle cable fab'd, custom BGM-SIP fuel sender wiring fab'd and then fixed, and a few lazy hours have been spent in the garage.

And she's finally running. Really quickly.

AFR numbers are good (some massaging needed), CHT numbers are excellent, but the EGT numbers are worryingly high on 3/4 to full throttle.

Have done a couple of trashy running in hunts down the freeway, it zips up to "way to fast to be legal" quite quickly...

Need to start figuring out why the egt temps are so high, but wow. Scary fast, both off the line, and top end.

Ginch once said to me that the way to make 100km/h on 10" wheels feel safe is to go 110. not sure how I'm gonna make HJ's potential speed feel safe...

IMG_2680.jpg
Jetting break...

Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 460
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Sat Apr 27, 2019 6:43 pm quote
Iím running a very similar setup. Let me know how you settle on jetting with that 30phbh
Are you running variable timing?
I run the vespower and seems to be working really well with the static around 21 degrees.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:20 am quote
Yep-thanks very much for the tuning tips so far.

I'm running vespatronic - 23 degrees at 2500rpm. I'm tempted to put on a static CDI at 19 and see if it cures my high EGT readings at highway speeds
Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 460
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:41 pm quote
Ok but wouldnt it be retarding to around that at highway speeds anyway?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Apr 28, 2019 2:37 pm quote
I guess it depends on what "highway speeds" actually are. Craig and I have talked about the difficulty of actually viewing the firing point with a timing light in the higher revs.
This is saying that you're down to 19 about 6500rpm and 15 by 8000 - if you start out at 23 degrees @ 2500.

Vespatronic curve.jpg

Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 460
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:27 pm quote
Craig Iím just thinking out loud here.
Ginch tells me your using a sip road pipe, I guess you have reasons for this, ground clearance, noise etc.
An MHR really needs an expansion. The box pipe would be holding it back especially up in the revs and that will produce more heat especially with the restricted outlet.
Anyway, I would try raising the float level by using a heavier float, donít bend the needle tab, it will just make it flood!!
It will richen up the entire jet circuit, then if it feels to rich you can counteract that by going to the next leanest slide without leaning out in the upper rev ranges.
I guarantee this will bring down your EGT
My favourite atomiser needle combo is the av268/X13 needle and always try to settle on the second from top clip (like factory) setting. The ideal pilot setting around the 1.5 turns out.
Another little thing I discovered is that a reed stuffer helps smooth things out. Malossi supply this with the VL17 replacement.

Iím only stating here what works for me and my setup. Not at all implying that it will work for everyone
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:43 pm quote
That sounds like good advice! He might improve that exhaust by enlarging the outlet pipe on the SIP road... have seen that done here and there as a performance boost.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:17 am quote
Went for a trundle down the freeway to the city today. 1/4 to 1/3 throttle is giving 6k rpm, 80k's, 245 cht, but 1150 (f) egt. It'll rev to about 8750, but I'm holding back due to the temp(except for the occasional "whoohoo moment").

Thought about one of these as a expansion pipe, https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+malossi+power_32171380.

Spoke to Ginch - he talked me down from that.

Ordered an S&S instead (Luckily they're only $50 - just ask the Mrs...).
Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 460
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:32 pm quote
Oh my...scooter and service.
Prepare to be spellbound
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 201
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Hooked
PX 150
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 460
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Wed May 01, 2019 2:16 pm quote
I removed the centre stand when I originally had the JLRZ left hand..
I havenít used it since.
According to sip you need to remove it.
That MRP adaptor looks interesting though.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 01, 2019 6:42 pm quote
Can you please add my two indicators to that when you order that? I know you go from "wondering" to "ordered" quicker than a Tesla.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 6783
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed May 01, 2019 6:48 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Can you please add my two indicators to that when you order that? I know you go from "wondering" to "ordered" quicker than a Tesla.
Also looks like you should use a PX stand with that.... brackets too (as the PX stand might be a bigger diameter than what you have now...springs, clips etc.
2019 Spring Gathering - May 16 - 19, Location TBD (Likely Maggie Valley, NC)   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   Cool Ass scooter seat cover
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