My first smallframe build
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Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:53 pm quote
Hello my name is Wilhelm and I got my hands on a Spanish Vespa Primavera 125
The engine is early pk 125 two hole intake.
The plan was to strip engine, not been open in almost 30 years.
The plan was to change bearings and to a quick overhaul
But then I when I pulled out the engine and took it apart,
I need to do a full rebuild.
And rotary pad is damaged
So the first plan was.
Stock gearing 2.54(ithink or 2.64)
Polini Evo 130
Rotary intake with polini 24mm
Lth midrange.

But then I thought was not go direct intake
So now the plan is
Parmakit ECV challenger 130
Polini 26 or 26 mm (kehin copy)
Lth misrange
Polini 2.56 primary
Zadar corse clutch
Drt gear cross
Drt full circle
Lth midrange.
But unsure that the gearing to to heavy or to use different cylinder.
Gonna be funn sporty tourer. (usually Wil he using my T5 for tours.
Wil also soon start a T5 fully pinasco build

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Parmakit ECV 130 challenge

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Damage rotary

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:23 pm quote
Looking forward to seeing this unfold! What was the reason for your choice of the Parmakit?
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:42 pm quote
It alloy cylinder inkl reed
And it's cheap and Italian forum says it's quit okay.
It not like the sp09 kit it more like polini I have read
And it made to be plug and play kit ( according to Google translate so. Not 100% accurate.
But if people have any other suggestions to apply, I am happy to listen to it.
And shortcut. Don't have to port the intake. Only match the transfer.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm quote
Yes it is pretty cheap! Do you have any specs on it?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5551
Location: Indo
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:51 pm quote
thats still too expensive for me and i think a standar 125cc is fast enough.. well atleast its had 4th gear compare to my pts100cc which only had 3
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:02 pm quote
Hi ginch.thanls for that it was found at a tollstation in Norway.
And then som friends got it and managed to get the papers on it and restored the frame.
And got a 30 year old pk engine 125 in 2010. Bought only used 1 month in total. Until I bought it 2013. And not used it before 2015
Yes it is cheap. And the rest of the scooter blew up mye budget. So
It maby a down grade from polini Evo 130.
The only timings I have found so fare is
125/185. But gonna talk to a German friend, and se if he can find more info on GSf.


HI Koenig blues. Ye as a standard it was okay. But then u se friends that tune their scorers on so on. Was thinking the old classic polini iron 130. But then way not upgrade a little.
But have to see what money I have left
Also have a pinasco project as well. So the money is flying out the window 😥
Have not told my wife what I am doing in the garage 😋

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Upcoming full T5 pinasco engine

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My friends replica 90 ss

Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:31 am quote
Okay some Italians on et3 forum measured to cylinder ports to 117to 172.
Not sure what to belive but asked the people at parmakit corp
Did not get timings.
But it was a tourer cylinder with the possibility of producing max 17hp
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:04 pm quote
T5Wilhelm wrote:
Okay some Italians on et3 forum measured to cylinder ports to 117to 172.
Not sure what to belive but asked the people at parmakit corp
Did not get timings.
But it was a tourer cylinder with the possibility of producing max 17hp
Good info Willhelm. Do you have a link to that?
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:57 pm quote
Yeah somewhere on my log.
Here is one.
https://www.et3.it/topic/41451-gruppo-termico-parmakit-130-ecv-lamellare-collettore-25/

So resently bought 3 bearing wheel, primary and crank clutch side.
The crank and wheel bearing some reason why not not to use sealed ones?
And got 2 exhaust one polini snail and on simonini down and forward but not sure
But missing som parts on the exhaust tho

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Simonini d&f? Or

Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:39 pm quote
Just ordered the cylinder kit. Soo looking forward to get the kit and start open the transfer ports.

Here some picture of my T5 engine case that's is gonna be open for the pinasco cylinder while we wait for parts for my Primavera

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Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:30 pm quote
As usual, the ports on a T5 motor have me drooling and your motor is especially gorgeous.

Stupid question: Has anybody ever tried fitting a T5 top end on a smallie motor and if not what are the obstacles? Just serious welding & machining challenges or basic geometry won't fit?
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:07 pm quote
Interesting though, if i had the skils and equipment i would try,
But the quattrini m 200 case would mabye a good starting point🤔
really was thinking of buying the pinasco case for the smallframe, but thought i wait to see if i liked the smallframe before i go bananas
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:58 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
Stupid question: Has anybody ever tried fitting a T5 top end on a smallie motor and if not what are the obstacles? Just serious welding & machining challenges or basic geometry won't fit?
There was that one with the Simonini ultralight cylinder grafted on (50hp odd), PLC Corse did one with a 125 kart top end. And in the same vein there is the S&S Husqvarna conversion. Taking it even further the Quattrini 232/244 use a similar system. That is, you start with a crank with a long conrod (125-135mm) which gives you more area to play with to blend the transfers back to the case. So that may be a plate which changes the stud pattern and houses the transfer that translate between case and cylinder. The Quattrini doesn't use a plate however.

Last edited by Ginch on Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125 + projects
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7606
Location: seattle/athens
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:01 am quote
OK... I've seen some of that and I know some ppl can make amazing combinations with enough skill, equipment and/or money.
But has anyone ever tried a T5 top on a welded & restudded smallie case?

Either the dimensions simply won't work or it's been tried or at least considered by somebody - I can't imagine this is an original idea, so when the main topic and those beautiful T5 port pics showed up on the same page, I had to ask.

I admit to being hopelessly in love with the T5 case design.You can weld & carve your 150 & 200 cases all you like but you'll have a hard time beating the stock T5 for sheer port size.

PS: Wilhelm, how about a port shot of your stock T5 cylinder and the Pinasco you will be installing? Hey,maybe you can put your old top end on your smallie motor if somebody posts up a good recipe .
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:24 pm quote
Wil do that voodoo. Gonna find my polini barrel and malossi also. Så kan we see the difference. Wil I wait for smallframe parts.
Here is a picture of new pinasco T5 cylinder with 57mm stroke.
The top of the cylinder is higher then stander pinasco, malossi ect cylinders.
So a 57 crank. And tour ready.
🤔maby have to wait to get the pinasco engine done. Maby try a long stroke pinasco T5 one day.

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Pinasco T5 cylinder with 57mm stroke.
It's a plug and play cylinder..

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Stock engine vs pinasco engine case

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:42 pm quote
T5Wilhelm wrote:
Pinasco T5 cylinder with 57mm stroke.
It's a plug and play cylinder..
Perhaps the cylinder is plug and play, but before you get that far don't you need to change the crank? Isn't it something like 53mm on the T5? Also, I think the new Pinasco cases are designed to take the 200 crank with 110mm rod. That's what they say for the 150 cases anyway. Not sure about the T5 though.

I wonder if you could do a favour Willhelm? Could you please measure the width across the case opening at the transfers? I'm intrigued how the transfers can be so much bigger for the same width of case overall.

Clipboard01.jpg

Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:14 pm quote
So went out to the garage this evening.
Tok some photos of the cylinder on a small block
And some of the T5 sylinder and case. Did not find the malossi or the polini cylinder 😥
Was stund that the case ports are quit small
And that pinasco cylinder have not open the ports very much.

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Millimeter.

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So the original cylinder has bigger side ports then the pinasco cylinder(but can be opened)

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The engine case pots are small even for the stock cylinder

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:13 am quote
I guess the side ports look smaller because the new cylinder has a bigger bore and doesn't have the cutaways.
I measured the std 150 case here and across the ports where you measured 103mm, I measured about 96 or so mm. I still can't work out where the extra comes from as the case is the same width!
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:16 am quote
150 lml engine or px?
Think t5 engines have different base than a px engine. To bad i don't have a px engine to compare it with
But there is a lot of meat on the pinasco case. And looks like I can open the transfer on the cylinder also. Pinasco is claiming 25 hk of this kit with direct intake.

Looking forward to se how much I can open the smallframe ports.
First pack is espcted to come to day😎
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:22 pm quote
T5Wilhelm wrote:
150 lml engine or px?
A VBC that had been oened up a bit. I have an LML as well and can say it's no wider, but definitely longer.
T5Wilhelm wrote:
Looking forward to se how much I can open the smallframe ports.
First pack is espcted to come to day😎
Exciting!!
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:16 am quote
So got the first package in the post yesterday.
Now the cylinder Wil maybe come middle of next week.
Gonna get me a crankshaft. Carb and clutch.
So the crank I think drt full circle Wil do. Cheap an probably OK quality.
The clutch i have no idea what to choose.
Polini clutch dubble spring or zadra corse. Or something that price range 80-150 euro.
Or any other recommendations?
Gonna wait little bit with carb to se what I want, probably end up with 24mm

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Enthusiast
too many
Joined: 16 May 2012
Posts: 61
Location: Norway
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:08 am quote
Hi Wilhelm!

Haven't tried it myself, but the BGM has a Nice reputation;
http://www.scooter-center.com/en/product/BGM8050/Clutch+BGM+PRO+Superstrong+Vespa+V50+V90+SS50+SS90+PV125+ET3+PK50+PK80+PK50+S+PK80+S+PK125+S+PK50+XL+PK125+XL+ETS+PK50+HP+PK50+SS+Actuating+plate+XL2?meta=?cat=C_V_VMA2T&catmatch=CAT_ANTRIEB_KUPPLUNG

That said, you'll need a PKXL clutchcover for that, but I'll recomend it...

Ø
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86 and a not so normal pts100 '82
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5551
Location: Indo
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:33 am quote
any news on the spanish primavera mate i am planing to open my smally soon so i am eager to see what ur result.. good luck with the upgrade and cheer mate
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:18 am quote
Yes indeed got the cylinder today in the mail and I will go out to the garage this evening and measure the ports. More info to come
Looks very nice
Oh find i fault/fail/different. Ine photos

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Feel like a teenager

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Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 665

Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:42 am quote
Cylinder looks fast.
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:01 am quote
PureDrivenSnow wrote:
Cylinder looks fast.
Well we shall see. But this is the touring version with more road friendly use (as parma said to me in an email I got..
9-16hp so hoping for som reliable fun
Addicted
1974VLB 1979VSX 1974V9A
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
Posts: 665

Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm quote
Well, if it doesn’t go… You’re exhausted probably the weakest link.
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:27 pm quote
More photos
Gonna be som porting and maybe some welding to the case.
The carb in photo is polini 30mm
But not sure what size to use? 🤔
And gonna decide for a clutch and exhaust and ignition. 😵
Starting to be expensive scooter 😋

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:57 pm quote
I would have thought for a 9-16hp predicted output with a touring bias, that somewhere about 26mm carb is where you'd want to be?

Makes your case look dirty!
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:35 pm quote
I don't know what to expect from this Ginch, my friend have his polini 130 with 10..4hp at Dyno couple of years a go. Han his scooter is fast and reliable
So longe I can keep up with him, 😋
And when I see that big carb on there, it felt almost as a must to have, but have to try to control my self. Also looked at the sip engine case to get a clean engine 😇 and more meat on the case as well.
Was wondering about chemical welding if that works or should tig weld it?

Discovered another problem yesterday, some of the bearings just slips right in 😥
Maby worn bearing seats. Don't see any damage, maby try to use locktight on the bearings.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:09 am quote
I'm no expert by any means. Just sounds a bit big to me... but you'll work it out.
AS far as chemical welding goes, these guys use a lot of it and it appears to come out very well. Some great scooter porn even if you don't use their ideas. https://www.facebook.com/pg/WhiteOneRacing/photos/?tab=albums

Now that I have a closer look I see they have an album of photos using the cylinder you have... if you look closely you can see where they've built up the outside of the transfers. Also the cylinder cowl is interesting!

White 1 smallframe porting.jpg

Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:07 am quote
Sweet thank you Ginch
Gonna send them an email and ask some questions.
Thinking 24 or 26 mm car is enough.
Maby ask them about the polini dubble spring clutch
See on et3 forum and on GSf. They like it.
Gonna Google chemical welding to see if I find any local shop that sells it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:36 pm quote
I asked them what they used, mostly it's the greeny coloured stuff but the one above looks darker. It's this (and it's damn expensive!) - https://www.10pollici.com/it/homepage/attrezzatura-officina/stucchi-metallici/resina-bicomponente-asportec-400g.1.1.143.gp.6050.uw

Also if you look through their pics you'll notice how much effort they go to to prepare a good surface for the epoxy with some quite deep gouging to key it in... the album I'm thinking of is called "Malossi sport 217cc lamellare".

There is also this stuff which I've had recommended, it has about the highest heat range of 280C. - http://www.weicon.com/pages/ca/products/adhesive/2c-adhesive/repair-stick/titanium.php#top

And of course there's JB Weld which has the heat range - and many here can vouch for it. It's much more liquid than most (which would be tricky in the picture above) tbut it was suggested to me that a little talc could be mixed in to firm it up.
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:47 am quote
Thanks Ginch. Next week I am gonna start porting the casing. And today I ordered drt crank polini clutch and polini 26mm carb
So more photos Wil come
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:26 pm quote
Okay so gonna order pinasco flytech 1400gr.
Hope the wight is not to much?

And then the exhaust is one the list
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+franz+for+vespa+_22017100
Or
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+serie+pro+lth_22017610
Or
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/racing+exhaust+vsp+road+for_vsprw

Thinking also to buy sip rims with sip tires, are they any good the tires i mean?
And i need stoping power to. Thinking maby disc brake front. Or just upgrade brake shoes?
Ossessionato
Joined: 26 Oct 2015
Posts: 2084

Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:38 pm quote
If you've already blown your budget, you might as well spring for a disc as well. In for a penny, in for a pound.
Enthusiast
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Location: Norway
Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:51 pm quote
T5Wilhelm wrote:
Okay so gonna order pinasco flytech 1400gr.
Hope the wight is not to much?

Thinking also to buy sip rims with sip tires, are they any good the tires i mean?
And i need stoping power to. Thinking maby disc brake front. Or just upgrade brake shoes?
Hi Wilhelm!

1400 should be about Perfect for a touring engine...

Regarding the disk brake, it would of course be better.

That said, on my 25bhp 90Racer, I'm still on the old drum brakes.
-but they work really good, and stops me as fast as needed.

Any how, I recomend the Crimaz anti-dive kit. That really improves the front brake!
-or you could go all in on a Crimaz disk brake kit for V-range, that will set you back about 650 Euros....

Happy Birthday by the way!

Ø
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:59 am quote
Then 1400 gr it will be.
I am looking at the crimaz system.
Buy just got the info that their making brake pumpe for the T5 also so have to save some money for that as well.

So lth midrange, flytech 1400gr and then suspension and brakes.
My wife is gonna skin me😋 but to late now som parts on their way
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7278
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:28 am quote
T5Wilhelm wrote:
My wife is gonna skin me😋 but to late now som parts on their way
Better make your last days fun in that case!!
Hooked
Vespa t5 Mk1
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 107
Location: Norway
Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:30 pm quote
So it's started. Flywheel side was easy to open up. But the clucht side was worse, gonna get it welded before I go thru.
Gonna open/flow intake å little.
Is it smart to flow the crank case to ad iambic gonna use full circle crank?

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Before

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After

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Almost there

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Fudge not enough meat on clutch side

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Gonna match the intake

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