One small frame for man...
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:51 am quote
What started out as a cheeky joke a couple of years ago resulted in picking up my smallframe last night. It's in boxes and bags, and missing a bunch of stuff but it's exciting!

Autojack mentioned he was moving from San Fransisco to Melbourne... I suggested he could bring me a smallframe and he said why not?
Voodoo found me one within minutes... a project scooter owned by The Falcon that was a long way down the To Do list. So we made a deal, Voodoo collected up some other bits locally and Greece. OopsClunkThud collected it from Seattle after Amerivespa and dropped it back to SF. Then into a container with Autojack's household goods, across the sea where it was emptied in Melbourne. And back to my place.

Thank you all of you guys, I appreciate your help so much!

And here it is! Like a xmas present all wrapped up.

Initially I was a bit concerned it had a twist; after lining up the bottom of the tail seam with the seam at the back and front of the seat in several different methods I finally realised that the tail is a bit skewed... any ideas for tweaking it back gratefully received!

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Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:56 am quote
Lovin it! Can't wait to see it.
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 989
Location: seattle, wa
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:06 pm quote
Sweet!!!
Amazing its going to get a new life. I got it from Jeb at Soundspeed scooters that closed here in Seattle along time ago. He was going to make a track scoot with it I believe.
I am sorry to hear it is tweaked a bit. I saw one fellow strapped down a frame solidly then inserted a large bar in headset and tweaked it back. Seems to me it should do it as it looks slight.

Hope it all goes well and can't wait to see the progress on this most crazy Vespa transaction I know of
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7854
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:42 pm quote
ditto


get your wallet out...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:42 pm quote
Re: Sweet!!!
the Falcon wrote:
Amazing its going to get a new life. I got it from Jeb at Soundspeed scooters that closed here in Seattle along time ago. He was going to make a track scoot with it I believe.
I am sorry to hear it is tweaked a bit. I saw one fellow strapped down a frame solidly then inserted a large bar in headset and tweaked it back. Seems to me it should do it as it looks slight.

Hope it all goes well and can't wait to see the progress on this most crazy Vespa transaction I know of
I can't wait to see the progress either!!

Yeah the guy with the bar was me!! That was on SEB's crashed Super.
So the tweak I worked out was at the very back end. You can see in the last picture that it's not really symmetrical, that the angles made are slightly different. I think once that is pushed back (somehow!) then the tail will line up again. I'm happy that the steering column lines up nicely with the main body centreline.
I am concerned in this process that I'll open up or close up the engine door opening. Anyone have a measurement between the door tabs to check?
Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:57 pm quote
SUB SCRIBED.

Me: "I'm going to bring Michael some Vespa parts when we move."
Wife: *grumbles*
Wife, upon looking in the garage a few days later: "YOU SAID 'PARTS,' THIS IS A WHOLE SCOOTER!!"

Talk about scooter rage...
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:06 pm quote
We want a full proper build thread
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7854
Location: seattle/athens
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:37 pm quote
I measured 2 bikes, '74 Primavera & '80 50 Special, and they look about the same: 29 1/2 to 30 cm outside of the plastic flanges on the cover mount. In the first pic it's too close so there's a lot of parallax error, but on the second one I stepped back & zoomed in. Measuring directly is a problem w/o pulling fan & cover but it's about 30 cm w/ the tape modestly bowed over the fan cover.

But get a door first if you can! And yeah, I thought that was you fellows w/ the big bar straightening crooked frames with materials at hand. Do it again & take pics when you do. I'd mostly just make sure the engine pivot mount is square to the fork holes, don't lose that chasing a perfect tail

Img_9489.jpg
'80 50 Special (for sale)

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'74 Primavera (not)

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:53 pm quote
autojack wrote:
"YOU SAID 'PARTS,' THIS IS A WHOLE SCOOTER!!"

Talk about scooter rage...
It's definitely parts! They're spread all over the garage floor (something that generally doesn't happen with a whole scooter) so I present it to you my learned colleague that ipso facto and notwithstanding.... [Ginch exits stage left, voice trailing off to nothing]
sdjohn wrote:
We want a full proper build thread
Unfortunately there's not enough electrons left. I think you used them all up on your thread.

Yes I'll do a build thread... might get a bit dull as it'll go slowly due to funding issues. But I'll post up my wish list for the build tonight.
V oodoo wrote:
I measured 2 bikes, '74 Primavera & '80 50 Special, and they look about the same: 29 1/2 to 30 cm outside of the plastic flanges on the cover mount. In the first pic it's too close so there's a lot of parallax error, but on the second one I stepped back & zoomed in. Measuring directly is a problem w/o pulling fan & cover but it's about 30 cm w/ the tape modestly bowed over the fan cover.

But get a door first if you can! And yeah, I thought that was you fellows w/ the big bar straightening crooked frames with materials at hand. Do it again & take pics when you do. I'd mostly just make sure the engine pivot mount is square to the fork holes, don't lose that chasing a perfect tail
Yes you're right about the door... I should really have that first as you say then I can't really go wrong. I will do the through-the-engine-mount-holes-compared-to-steering-column thing, just need to set it up somehow. Thanks for the measurements.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
a not so normal vbb2 '64, a weirdo vbx '86, a not so normal pts100 '82 and a red lipstick '74 sprint
Joined: 15 Jun 2009
Posts: 5706
Location: Indo
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:36 pm quote
yippi good news for you Brother M, atleast now i know where to ask about my smallie problems in the future, ur engine look promising

good luck with the bike and cheer
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:46 pm quote
Here it is!

From memory we had to drive the car onto th wood to hold it in place while "adjustments were made"

image.jpeg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:52 pm quote
We did. You can just see the plumb bob hanging down over the back, and the small level on the wood. Good times.
Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 567

Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm quote
You might mount the motor and see how well the back of the frame lines up with the rear tire...These were mass produced and as long as the rear tire is inline with the front and they are both vertical, maybe it is close enough or as it left the factory if you cannot see any obvious damage...
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5429
Location: So Cal
Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:32 pm quote
This should be a fun one. Go get em, Ginch.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:00 pm quote
You gonna tell us your plans or keep us hanging?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:33 pm quote
TR wrote:
You might mount the motor and see how well the back of the frame lines up with the rear tire...These were mass produced and as long as the rear tire is inline with the front and they are both vertical, maybe it is close enough or as it left the factory if you cannot see any obvious damage...
Yeah I like that idea, thanks. Plus it presents a photo opportunity with my new toy, so...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:40 am quote
So I want this scooter to be a tourer really. I already have one with the Super/221 Sport which I love, but I'm sure this will feel different enough. I'd also like to take it on the Mille for a better handicap as both frame and engine are earlier.
With the Super I built my way up to where I am now and it went through several incarnations. This time I hope to skip to the end and do less buying, less building, more riding. So that is why I'm aiming where I am.

Cylinder - Pinasco Zuera 144 big bore direct reed intake [https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Cylinder-kit-145cc-60mm-Pinasco-Zuera-VTR-Big-Bore-reed-valve-Vespa-V50-PV-PK]
Carb - probably Polini pwk 24?
Crank - 51 stroke full circle w/97 or 105 rod (not sure of brand yet)
Gearbox - DRT runner, stock gears 58-54-50-46, 27/69 DRT primary
Clutch - BGM superstrong probably
Exhaust - LTH midrange probably
Ignition - really like the look of the SIP performance system [51008SD0]

Picked the Zeura because I wanted a touring cylinder as big as possible with cruisy port timing. I have a line on an Italian shop that is far cheaper (they all are actually), it does mean sending it via a friend in Holland to forward on to me though.

I'll be really stretching it financially to do this but hopefully it'll be worthwhile. Anybody with suggestions?
bodgemaster
1963 GL, 1976 Super (x 2), 1974 Primavera (x 2), 2006 Fly 150
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Posts: 5429
Location: So Cal
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 am quote
Go long stroke...
Addicted
1966 SS180,1968 Sprint, 72' Rally ,74 V90, '64 GL 150 & too many projects!
Joined: 17 May 2010
Posts: 989
Location: seattle, wa
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:16 am quote
autojack wrote:
SUB SCRIBED.

Me: "I'm going to bring Michael some Vespa parts when we move."
Wife: *grumbles*
Wife, upon looking in the garage a few days later: "YOU SAID 'PARTS,' THIS IS A WHOLE SCOOTER!!"

Talk about scooter rage...
I just want to say you ROCK !!!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:40 pm quote
SoCalGuy wrote:
Go long stroke...
On Vader's suggestion I wrote to Alex at SCK for advice, and here's what he sent... the comment about stroking was what made me decide on the 51. A while ago I had a lightly used Polini 210 aluminum and was looking for 176/120 port timings. With the long stroke crank it simply didn't work so I sold it on. I'm thinking that I should try to stick with known figures for a more predictable outcome if that makes sense?
Alex wrote:
I've just checked the Zuera 144 case intake barrel.

Deck height 0.0mm (the cylinder head have a step of 1mm)
exhaust height 26.6mm
main transfer height 38.9mm

exhaust duration 189° (Stroke 51mm)
transfer duration 130° (Stroke 51mm)

so a kind of high transfer and low exhaust duration.
If I had to do the job, I would like to lower the cylinder a little bit to have 126-128° transfer and raise the exhaust duration to 190°.
this in combination with a Franz exhaust f.e. you could create a useful weapon.
I think it is hard to stroke the barrel, because the deck height is already 0mm
The Parmakit W-force is pretty similar to this.

I dynoed a SRV with Franz with 24 brake already. That's not too bad I think. you like to have a rock solid engine and you're not too much after numbers at your sheet - aren't you?

I think that could be a good engine to have it on the road across kangaroo-land.

Also I would like to suggest to have a crank with 105mm con-rod - so it is more easy to play around with the timing w/o machining the barrel to a point of no return.
I did ask him some more questions about these comments but he didn't reply.
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7854
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:37 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
So I want this scooter to be a tourer really. I already have one with the Super/221 Sport which I love, but I'm sure this will feel different enough. I'd also like to take it on the Mille for a better handicap as both frame and engine are earlier.
With the Super I built my way up to where I am now and it went through several incarnations. This time I hope to skip to the end and do less buying, less building, more riding. So that is why I'm aiming where I am.

Cylinder - Pinasco Zuera 144 big bore direct reed intake [https://www.lambretta-teile.de/Cylinder-kit-145cc-60mm-Pinasco-Zuera-VTR-Big-Bore-reed-valve-Vespa-V50-PV-PK]
Carb - probably Polini pwk 24?
Crank - 51 stroke full circle w/97 or 105 rod (not sure of brand yet)
Gearbox - DRT runner, stock gears 58-54-50-46, 27/69 DRT primary
Clutch - BGM superstrong probably
Exhaust - LTH midrange probably
Ignition - really like the look of the SIP performance system [51008SD0]

Picked the Zeura because I wanted a touring cylinder as big as possible with cruisy port timing. I have a line on an Italian shop that is far cheaper (they all are actually), it does mean sending it via a friend in Holland to forward on to me though.

I'll be really stretching it financially to do this but hopefully it'll be worthwhile. Anybody with suggestions?
Suggestions? None from me unless you just want mildly reworked stock. Maybe consider a compact Delly VHST flat slide carb .... see the pic, has a nice bellmouth and a lovely description at SIP. But it looks like you've done your homework and I can learn on your dime.


https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/carburettor+dellorto+flat_40042000

Eagerly awaiting the build thread!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:01 am quote
Hmmm! Does look nice and not all that crazily-priced.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2398
Location: London UK
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:23 am quote
This VHST 24 comes in a 26 too.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/~/products/~/products/carburettor+dellorto+vhst_40043000

I have a VHSH30CS Go-Kart carb on my 221 and think it is the best 30 ever.
https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/products/carburettor+dellorto+vhsh+30_40041000
Same write up on mine

Last edited by Jack221 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:35 am; edited 2 times in total
Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2022
Location: Veria, Greece
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:25 am quote
Subscribed!!!
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7854
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:35 am quote


Looks like you must pretty much remove the Polini to change jets. No fun on a smallie.
I think the Dellorto is like my PHBL. On my Primavera all I had to do is reach under the carb w/ a box wrench & undo the 'bolt' on the bottom which the main jet is screwed into. So it's easy to swap jets if you don't mind spilling a couple spoonfuls of gas, I just put a rag under it.

Image1.jpg

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:36 pm quote
oops!

Last edited by Ginch on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:40 pm quote
It's not that bad, I pull my carb all the time. I use the CP21 clamp on style on the stock intake manifold. Pull out your toolbox, loosen the carb clamp, take off your foam filter (if so equipped), undo your fuel line quick connect, take off the choke cable from the lever (leave attached to carb), pull off the carb, 2 screws on the carb top leaves the top with slide behind (still attached to the cable), and voila you are holding your carb and can swap your jets. If you've got huge hands this could be a factor, but that's not an issue for me.
Addicted
SS208, SX250 , RD's and a K1300s and an RZ350 and TZR250
Joined: 30 Sep 2012
Posts: 567

Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:52 pm quote
With the Dellorto, I pull the filter, then choke cable, then loosen the hose clamp, flip carb over, unscrew quick change nut, change jet and reverse. When tuning, it is so much better than dealing with removing the carb completely...
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:05 pm quote
I think I have that little bowl nut thing you showed on my CP carb, I may give that a try next time....
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:16 pm quote
Mille?
Are you planning to ride it (fully loaded) to Byron Bay, or just for the Mille?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:39 pm quote
Re: Mille?
SubEtherBASS wrote:
Are you planning to ride it (fully loaded) to Byron Bay, or just for the Mille?
If I can get it ready then yes I'll ride it there, could even send some stuff ahead. That's still a long way off though!
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:52 pm quote
Too late, she cried!
Late last night I was checking prices and found that at https://www.motoricambisoviero.it/catalog/-Cylinder-Rolls-ZUERA-VTR-Lamellar-125-Vespa-ET3-145cc-d-60--41314431 they had the kit I wanted for about 60 euro less than normal, and about 165 euro less than the Germans... I had seen it there for that price a couple of months ago and then it went back up. So I jumped on it while the price was low! It's already on the way to my friend in Holland so he can relay it to me - most if not all the Italian sellers don't ship to Oz.
Here's a better pic from SCK -


Oh and I bought a carb too... before I saw Voodoo's tip. It's a PWK... oh well, I guess I'll get used to it!
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7854
Location: seattle/athens
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:41 pm quote
nicely done
Looks like it means business! So does it come w/ a special cylinder shroud to fit the cylinder induction or are you on your own there?

Have you altered your engine stand & fitted this little gem yet?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:16 pm quote
Still several steps ahead of me Voodoo! I'm still in the imagining-the-breezy-summer-day-cruising-through-winding-roads phase!
Addicted
64 allstate, 66 sprint, 74 primavera, 79 P125x
Joined: 10 Mar 2013
Posts: 788
Location: Maine
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:00 pm quote
Ginch,
Is there a good smallframe book out there other than the Haynes manual that you (or anyone else) would recommend?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:55 pm quote
The Paxton “How to restore smallframe Vespas” book is worth it.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7872
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:22 pm quote
october wrote:
Ginch,
Is there a good smallframe book out there other than the Haynes manual that you (or anyone else) would recommend?
I got the book that John mentions. Seems thorough. Guess I won't really know how good it is until I've finished putting it back together.... but it helps to identify the context of some individual bits that I've only seen on SIP or in a thread somewhere.

In other news, I picked up a chassis alignment tool over the weekend...


Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:52 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
In other news, I picked up a chassis alignment tool over the weekend...


Looks like firewood to me...
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:40 pm quote
The Paxton book is good but not as good as the Stickies book is for Lammies.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:41 pm quote
It’s too bad Sausage never did videos on smallies like he did on the P series engines.
Scooting the Ozarks is a scooter rally held in Eureka Springs, Arkansas offering riders scenic twisty rides, poker run, and more.   Vespa Wasp Pin Badges   Scooter Parts Company
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