One small frame for man...
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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:01 pm quote
Mike I did try to convince him that cutting what's basically a bevel in the spacer would be a 10 minute job with a die grinder, but Craig does like to challenge himself - in case you hadn't noticed! But it's all good practice for his next great idea which may not have been thought of yet (but I am certainly trying to dream up ideas that will challenge him!)

Craig, I appreciate the dedication! I have piked out of work in the shed in winter more times than you've had hot dinners...
Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:57 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Craig, I appreciate the dedication! I have piked out of work in the shed in winter more times than you've had hot dinners...
Someone on here once posted a picture of their garage with a pot-belly dive in it. That went straight onto my wish list.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:10 pm quote
Sure would be nice. Tricky when you're renting though.
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:48 am quote
Make it any way you like, as long as it makes you happy. Accuracy in the thickness is the most important. Setting the piston height correctly will do those ultra accurate numbers justice. Using the long con rod is a great idea, helps with so many issues.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:19 am quote
Accuracy is an awesome challenge. Never easy in a cold shed on a mountainside, no matter how good the tools. But we'll see...

Cut three spacers tonight.

First I re-re-re-cut the face of my cases after a post tig weld sag that was all my fault. Black area was 0.35mm low



Total taken off the face was 0.4mm, so my spacer total became 10.2mm. Michael's total was 9.725.

Did a test run with some 10mm stock bolted down to some sacrificial runners.



Spin, lubricate, and cut with a shiny new 6mm end mill.



Needed to take 0.275 of a mm off for Michael's, so after setting it up, I cut laps across it with a 16mm end mill first.



Well, I was pretty close.



.274, .275, whats .001 of a mm between friends. When I burn past him someday, we'll all know why...

For mine I had to use some 12mm and carve 1.8mm off it.

Hopefully it'll work



Three pretty ladies



We should be able to lap 'em or add to them and get the numbers perfect.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:09 pm quote
Should I bring the glass and wet & dry?
Hooked
2001 LML 150 2t
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 360
Location: Queensland, Aus
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:27 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
I have piked out of work in the shed in winter more times than you've had hot dinners...
You obviously need to stop eating marshmallows and get a big t-bone and a couple of slabs into you! hahaha.
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Jul 22, 2018 5:54 am quote
Another day of spanner turning and hear scratching in the garage yesterday.

The day wasn't all it was cracked up to be for me - I had some pressing issues, and they had a bearing on my ability to make progress with my engine, but we were able to get moving with Michaels.

He finished up his porting -



then we got to work installing the internal components.

Able assistance was available from SubEtherBass who arrived (after a disagreement with Speedy).



Progress was made, but it's slow - stuffing lots of components made as large and sturdy as possible into a tiny case causes complications and head scratching. Fun day regardless, Michael and Calum are lots of fun to work with.

I'll leave it to Michael to explain where he got up to, hopefully I'll be able to forge ahead and catch up next visit...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:32 am quote
There were some frustrations. I suppose that main one is we are always second-guessing if something is correct or not... of course we don't have a feel for what is worth worrying about on the first build.

I was pretty happy with the transfers, although the spacers meant that doing it the way that Patrick suggested earlier (curving the bottom back in towards the piston) was just not possible. So I made them as big as I could instead. It's funny when you are not expecting or thinking about it and get a whiff of JB. You can see it in the photo, the slightly darker patch. I was happy to have it there!

We managed to get the flywheel bearing out again, and I drilled out the oil delivery hole that I forgot about earlier. Last time we heated the case and froze the bearing and it dropped in with a satisfying clunk as it hit the bottom. Should have known then and there that something was wrong! This time of course it dropped in about 1/3 and that was it, so the press was used to good effect. We decided that supporting around the seal ring/protrusion was a good idea, and it turned out that the only thing that would fit was the other side of the case! I mention this in case the observant assembly enthusiast looks at the picture and wonder wtf we are doing!

Later we put the primary/basket into place. Spinning it around we found out the meaning of fine tolerances and precision engineering as it relates to the Italian scooter aftermarket sector. Good news is, the 'fingers' of the basket were within 2.8mm of being the same height, and down to a miniscule 1.5mm of being the same diameter all the way round. A special adjustment tool was used to hit it into a slightly rounder configuration, but the height issue is an ongoing project.

Lastly I checked the clearance of a 3.5 wheel and tyre. It cleared!! Only just though, I'll get some M6 dome head cap screws to provide a bit more. If the clutch cover needs a thicker spacer than 1mm - and it's looking that way - I'll need to resort to washers on the wheel studs.

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looks bumpy in the pic but it's actually a pretty smooth transition

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Leaving no stone unturned in the search for brave new configurations

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Ossessionato
1979 P150X, 1983 P200E, 1988 T5, 1995 PX200E, 2011 Yamaha Fazer 600 S2
Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 2012
Location: Veria, Greece
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:38 am quote
Possible future leak??

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:41 am quote
Nicely spotted Chrys! Yes I will need to keep an eye on that one. Although I'll breathe a sigh of relief if they are all that easy to see.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:58 am quote
Much thought was taken & close investigation required (or are we all simply going blind?). Damn wobbly clutch basket!

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Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:48 pm quote
Someone should hang up a sign outside the garage that says "Geniuses at work."
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:05 pm quote
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:45 pm quote
Knuckleheads!
Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:22 pm quote
DRT precision engineered racing parts.

(Occasional, minute, precise, delicate adjustments may be required).

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Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:44 pm quote
Yes. Well. The primary/basket thing was a bit of a frustration... when I assembled the clutch into it it was pretty clear which bits were higher than needed, so I scribed them and cut them off! Not down to the full 2.8mm difference, just a mm or so.
Then set up a jig to measure which fingers protruded outwards further than the others, tweaked, measured again etc.
Craig was feeling anxious about the balance or something, but I figured the technicians with the micrometers in the pockets of their white lab coats at DRT didn't seem that worried about it so why should I?

While Craig was blending the cases/packer/cylinder, I started with the clutch. And realised it needs to be assembled while in place, as it's a bit taller than the original clutch. Which also meant it needs to be compressed in place as well... fortunately the clutch removal tool, with a bit of adaptation, looks like it can do the job. It is something that I would have liked to have known about beforehand though.
After checking we found that the BGM superstrong as well as mine (Fabbri FB36) needed the same type of assembly.

Also I know the clutch picture with the case looks as if it's been smothered with chocolate - that's just what the JB weld looks like after cooking in the oven at 150c for a while. It does look pretty messy now that I look closely at it!

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Delving deep into Buffy's bits

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Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 7850
Location: seattle/athens
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:49 am quote
So far so good? It looks like you know what you're doing. Glad you're wearing hearing protection. But that chocolate frosting is making me hungry & we have some nice frosted brownies available...
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:24 pm quote
V oodoo wrote:
It looks like you know what you're doing.
Then the illusion is complete!

Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:13 pm quote
@Jack221... reading SD John's thread - where a constant stream of delivery companies are lining up at his front door with needles, atomisers, jets and so on - got me thinking.

Eventually mine will be assembled and will one day be running. And then I'll have to start the jetting process. I have a small number of needles (thanks Vader!) and jets. None of these parts appear to be available in Oz from what I could find. Jets R Us has them but doesn't ship here - I've had a few kind offers of forwarding from the US. This is all going to soak up a lot of time (generally 10 days delivery give or take), so I'd like to get this stuff in advance if I can. Definitely working against the clock as I want it to be ready for the Mille (1000km in 2 days) and the ride to get there (about 2000 over 4 or 5 days). I also have a Polini PWK 28 like John.

So my question is - what parts do you suggest I collect? And do you have a ballpark starting point?
Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:57 pm quote
Ginch wrote:
Jets R Us has them but doesn't ship here - I've had a few kind offers of forwarding from the US.
Don't forget I'll be there for 2-3 weeks in late Sept./early Oct. so if you need me to just hand-carry something back we can arrange it. No chassis or engines this time though
Jet Eye Master
PX221 Malossi, O tuned PX200 and some motorbikes
Joined: 14 Jun 2017
Posts: 2376
Location: London UK
Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:54 am quote
I though John's carb was a PWK30 but makes little differance. Whatever he ends up with though you won't need richer than. The main jet (when correctly set) is an indicator of max power when comparing the same type of carb. Your not going to be more powerful than a 221 without lots of rpm (like too much).

Apart from Smallframes not being my thing or PWK not being my thing, predicting jetting is not easy. Not sure what budget you are working to but going by the parts you buy, budget is not so important. If you get all the main jets between 120 and 160, I think that will be that covered. All the pilot jets under 40 covers that. Atomiser with 20 and 30 holes will work. Needles is the thing. Could end up with many needles (like me John and everyone else that does carbs has). Diameter will probably be between E and K, length F to J & taper H to L but who knows. Thats a lot of needles though. Better buy a few first and do two delievries. A 1000 miles on a new build is a tall order but after this long it will be perfect
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:31 am quote
Mine is pwk30. If you look at the needle charts and use what Jack says, there is actually a lot less thatís really available that meets those criteria than youíd think. But still probably more than you want to buy. For diameter, steps of 2, tapers by ones but closer to J taper if you are going the atomizer route with more holes.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:33 am quote
The richer the diameter the less choices you have on taper and length. This makes it easier.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:33 am quote
The more holes you go, the more to the left of the chart you will go.

As you get less holes, you will go up the chart.

If you want my guess (FWIW), try the circled needles. This will let you determine which needle diameter and atomizer you want to use, or at least get close. The taper/length may take you another buy, but at least this should get you in the neighborhood. Better than the set of 10 useless needles I bought from Polini.

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Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:56 am quote
Definitely working against the clock as I want it to be ready for the Mille (1000km in 2 days) and the ride to get there (about 2000 over 4 or 5 days).

Phooey, there is stacks of time... if you are finished before 4am on the day we leave, that means you will have a great sleep
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:38 pm quote
Thanks guys. I'll go through and identify what I have here on hand and work out an order.
Ossessionato
2 matching N.Z. '69 VBC Super, 177cc Racer, VespaCross Bodge, Puch SRA150, Piaggio Zip 100! & others
Joined: 26 May 2013
Posts: 3981
Location: That bushfire place
Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:23 am quote
autojack wrote:
Ginch wrote:
Jets R Us has them but doesn't ship here - I've had a few kind offers of forwarding from the US.
Don't forget I'll be there for 2-3 weeks in late Sept./early Oct. so if you need me to just hand-carry something back we can arrange it. No chassis or engines this time though
Is an engine ok?
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:37 pm quote
Ginch be sure to get the bgm idle jet kit that goes down to 30. The 30 and 32 are hard to find outside of this kit.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:19 pm quote
Thanks John. I have that needle set too.

I worked out what I have so far and what I need between yours and Jack's recommendations. Any thoughts based on the chart gratefully received!
I also see now that JetsRus does ship here, might be new or I may have been confusing it with somewhere else.

But where do you buy the 20 and 30 hole atomisers? There's a place called racing planet that has the 20, 30 and 40 but shipping is expensive. And is it worth getting the 40?

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Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:47 pm quote
I had Treatland order them for me but this is because they are one of the USA Polini dealers. Iíve only just received them, so stay tuned on which ones are useful. Maybe there is a Polini rep for Oz?
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:57 am quote
Looks like there is, but it's a shop that's not set up for web sales... by the time they order I think it would probably be quicker just to pay the euros and get it here.
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:18 pm quote
I ordered from JetsRus this week... 5 needles @ $6.51 US each, including an un-nominated fee combined with the shipping that helps them cover the cost of internet fraud...



Total $90 AU.




Because of the height of the clutch, it can't be installed assembled, there's just not enough room. So it needs to be assembled in place. I had hoped that I could compress the inner part using the clutch removal tool, but for some reason it would only screw on by a couple of threads. And didn't seem to be hitting anywhere. So we came up with a system... one that will never be repeated on the side of the road, but at least it's moving forward for now.

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Hooked
Bodgerific 150 Super, 50s in progress
Joined: 18 Aug 2016
Posts: 299
Location: Melbourne, Way Downunder
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:54 am quote
So 8 weekends after Ginch and I started building engines, today we finally saw some result.

There's a theme that runs through the days we've spent working on them - it's always freezing bloody cold. Today was no different - it was hailing on Ginch as he was unloading his car. He's borne the brunt of the long build - he's had the long drives too and from, on top of the long days.

Tonight he got some reward though. He combined fuel, spark, and air inside a tiny little combustion area, and his new engine made some very satisfying noises!

First fire was on a genuine second kick, and second time it fired first kick for a quick rev up. We'd worked till after dark so we kept it to that so as not to totally piss off my neighbours...

Check out the delight on his face when it fires up.

(sorry about the first bit Michael, I couldn't help myself...)

Well done mate, great to see your planning, hard work, and experience come together, it sounds awesome, and it's going to be a complete weapon.
Ossessionato
2015 GTS300, 1974 Primavera, 04 Ninja 250
Joined: 04 Apr 2013
Posts: 4438
Location: San Diego, CA
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:01 am quote
Nice video, like a kid at Christmas:)
Hooked
2001 LML 150 2t
Joined: 16 Jul 2017
Posts: 360
Location: Queensland, Aus
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:46 pm quote
Wow.. sounds great!! Well done! Can't wait to see this one.

Love the video too!

Phil
Veni, Vidi, Posti
74 Super, 75 Super, PX project, LML off-roader and new to 2018, '66 Blue Badge Smallframe
Joined: 30 Nov 2011
Posts: 7853
Location: Victoria, Australia
Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:46 pm quote
Ha ha!! I was feeling very anxious before that... such a relief to hear it running! And that was with the jetting in the Polini as it came out of the box. Very pleased, to put it mildly.

Awesome video, thanks a heap. Although very possibly "technical genius" may have overstated the case, how about an edit with "almost capable" instead?
While the mutual admiration society is still in session I've got to say that Crag has been great fun to work with and was often able to steer me straight on the correct way to do things, sometimes simply with a hard stare. Even if his Devotional Affirmations of "good tools are their own reward" did in the end begin to sound like "There's no place like home".

Oh, for anyone who can't see the video, here it is - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTmQy9NtqYs

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Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:05 pm quote
Yes! I had the same big cheesy grin when my Rally motor fired up for the first time after my big rebuild. What could be more satisfying?? Love the video as well Craig
Style Maven
74 50s x3 78 P200 84 Cosa PK50XL2 58 AllState 68 Sprint 80 50special '66(?) Super125
Joined: 22 Nov 2010
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Location: seattle/athens
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:25 pm quote
The vid was ace, thanks Craig. Tenacity and hard work do pay off! You should be proud. I know I kinda feel like a proud great uncle
Addicted
'76 Vespa Rally 200
Joined: 13 Feb 2011
Posts: 566
Location: Melbourne
Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:46 pm quote
Thinking of how many hands the chassis went through to get to Ginchy, I wish we had all engraved our initials in it along the way
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